What to practice at the track?
09-08-2015, 01:09 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
With your track background, I'm sure you know the basics as well as anyone on this site, and probably better than 90% of us. I would just add, strive for smoothness above all else and LEAVE ESC AND TC ON. They are both are very unobtrusive and can provide salvation when the unexpected happens. As several of my friends have most unfortunately found, despite its excellent handling characteristics, the speed this car carries on track combined with the rearward weight bias can make things happen more quickly than
you can respond.
You've been given some great advice on this thread. Despite whatever experience we may have, all of us are still learners and always will be. I know I have never driven "The Perfect Lap" and probably never will.
For my own driving, I always think of the advice given by Walter Rohrl, "Move the steering wheel as little as possible" and Juan Manuel Fangio when asked by a competitor his secret to winning races, "More Gas,
Less Brake". I'm still working on those, even after 50 years of tracking.
you can respond.
You've been given some great advice on this thread. Despite whatever experience we may have, all of us are still learners and always will be. I know I have never driven "The Perfect Lap" and probably never will.
For my own driving, I always think of the advice given by Walter Rohrl, "Move the steering wheel as little as possible" and Juan Manuel Fangio when asked by a competitor his secret to winning races, "More Gas,
Less Brake". I'm still working on those, even after 50 years of tracking.
09-08-2015, 02:54 PM
#17
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Yes that is me in my Avatar and I have a lot of track experience on bikes and have been taught by the likes of Nick Ientach, Kevin Schwantz and Ken Hill so feel very comfortable with the track. I've also done track days in cars but no where near the same level of experience and so was asking if anyone has any thoughts as no official instructors would be there. I'll take an instructor anytime - I actually still get one every now and then when on the bike.
I concur with FastLaneTurbo's suggestion to leave ESC/TC on. If pros don't need to turn it off, neither do we. I've tested the behavior of the car on the skidpad with it on and off, and confirmed that the threshold for intervention is fairly high. And when the intervention occurs, it's fairly effective and noticeable. That's given me confidence to push the car harder on the track, knowing that a safety net is there, and I've used that net a few times in selected locations, to probe the limits. But also beware that ESC/TC have their limitations and won't always be able to gather up the car effectively, so there's no room for complacency. I know of a 991 GT3 who did a 180 spin at high speed due to asking too much of the car, and I'm pretty sure his ESC/TC was on; luckily, he didn't hit anything.
09-08-2015, 05:01 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks - I too have been fortunate in that under controlled conditions (at a HoD track day) I was able to do figure 8's, slalom and moderate speed breaking to get the ABS to work with both nannies on and off. Figure 8's with nannies off didn't do much for the tires(!!) but was a good way to get the car to under/over steer. I can't think why you would turn them off.
I will certainly get Joe in the car if it works out.
I will certainly get Joe in the car if it works out.
09-08-2015, 06:03 PM
#19
Sacrifice corner entry speed to allow for a stronger exit, i.e. after negotiating corner in balanced way point the car straight and floor it. Don't waste too much time braking, i.e. brake late and hard. Be a gentleman with the steering. Avoid drifting like Harris. That will slow u down. Of course always follow the racing line.
09-08-2015, 06:22 PM
#20
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Sacrifice corner entry speed to allow for a stronger exit, i.e. after negotiating corner in balanced way point the car straight and floor it. Don't waste too much time braking, i.e. brake late and hard. Be a gentleman with the steering. Avoid drifting like Harris. That will slow u down. Of course always follow the racing line.
09-09-2015, 11:32 AM
#22
If you want to get better as a driver, these are some good reads before going to the track:
DRIVER DEVELOPMENT: Car Control
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...r-Control.aspx
"Braking late, hitting apexes, and powering out of corners: The goal of driving a car quickly requires keeping the tires at their limit at all times. Having good car control is a crucial skill in the development of a driver to not only drive a car fast, but also to have the ability to get up to speed quickly in a new car and on new tracks. However, without self control and discipline, having good car control can actually work against you."
DRIVER DEVELOPMENT: Learning Processes
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...Processes.aspx
"How do we become better at driving? Practice makes perfect, right? Well not necessarily. Without feedback and direction, additional practice won’t always improve your ability and can possibly lead to the development of bad habits. So in reality, perfect practice makes perfect. In Part 2 of the Driver Development series, we discuss how drivers learn to improve their craft through various methods from coaching to data analysis to simulators which all aid in the advancement of the skill of driving."
DRIVER DEVELOPMENT: Car Control
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...r-Control.aspx
"Braking late, hitting apexes, and powering out of corners: The goal of driving a car quickly requires keeping the tires at their limit at all times. Having good car control is a crucial skill in the development of a driver to not only drive a car fast, but also to have the ability to get up to speed quickly in a new car and on new tracks. However, without self control and discipline, having good car control can actually work against you."
DRIVER DEVELOPMENT: Learning Processes
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...Processes.aspx
"How do we become better at driving? Practice makes perfect, right? Well not necessarily. Without feedback and direction, additional practice won’t always improve your ability and can possibly lead to the development of bad habits. So in reality, perfect practice makes perfect. In Part 2 of the Driver Development series, we discuss how drivers learn to improve their craft through various methods from coaching to data analysis to simulators which all aid in the advancement of the skill of driving."
09-09-2015, 01:35 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Keep it simple:
- focus on refining your lines (watch videos and chat with the locals); when you can do it at a slower speed with precise consistency and smoothness, add speed; rinse and repeat
- keep vision up; be aware of your surroundings at all times (cars and turn workers); respect your car's ability will be greater than your own (someone already mentioned leave all driving aids on)
- HAVE A GREAT TIME! Been fortunate enough to run with this group twice. Great awareness here.
- focus on refining your lines (watch videos and chat with the locals); when you can do it at a slower speed with precise consistency and smoothness, add speed; rinse and repeat
- keep vision up; be aware of your surroundings at all times (cars and turn workers); respect your car's ability will be greater than your own (someone already mentioned leave all driving aids on)
- HAVE A GREAT TIME! Been fortunate enough to run with this group twice. Great awareness here.
09-09-2015, 05:06 PM
#24
Former Vendor
DRIVER DEVELOPMENT: Learning Processes
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...Processes.aspx
"How do we become better at driving? Practice makes perfect, right? Well not necessarily. Without feedback and direction, additional practice won’t always improve your ability and can possibly lead to the development of bad habits. So in reality, perfect practice makes perfect. In Part 2 of the Driver Development series, we discuss how drivers learn to improve their craft through various methods from coaching to data analysis to simulators which all aid in the advancement of the skill of driving."
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...Processes.aspx
"How do we become better at driving? Practice makes perfect, right? Well not necessarily. Without feedback and direction, additional practice won’t always improve your ability and can possibly lead to the development of bad habits. So in reality, perfect practice makes perfect. In Part 2 of the Driver Development series, we discuss how drivers learn to improve their craft through various methods from coaching to data analysis to simulators which all aid in the advancement of the skill of driving."
That's pretty funny. They used a photo of our simulator, but chose the flight configuration!
Interesting article though. It pretty well sums up the state of the market in simulators.
09-10-2015, 02:45 PM
#25
Driving technique at the race track is very complex with many nuances. This is why dry facts without explanation in practice might not work and sometimes can have the opposite effect.
09-10-2015, 02:58 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
A lot of this advice is very good, but it's also, more or less, advice for a novice. I suspect you already know how to keep your head up and know what an apex is. The following is intended for "intermediate."
I don't know a lot about bikes, but I suspect you are going to find that you have a built-in caution about approaching the edge of the envelope. One of the most difficult things to learn to go from quick to fast is that the car's limit is usually well beyond your self-imposed internal limit. I suspect it's a lot easier to push a car closer to the real limit (rather than your limit), so:
1) you've got a lot more braking ability and can trail-brake without risking your life. Pick one corner and brake a little later every lap until you feel squirrely on corner entry. Do this progressively.
2) you've got a lot more traction on corner exit and can put the power down earlier without risking your life. This is especially true in a 911, which seems to be magical - the more you put the power down, the more traction you have. Pick a corner (different corner) and add power a little earlier and a little harder til it gets a little squirrely on exit. When it does, ease off just a whiff, correct steering slightly and put the power back down. Do NOT let off quickly or dramatically (but I suspect that habit is really ingrained on a bike).
3) you will be a lot more stable in transition areas with dramatic left-right shifts, you can carry WAY more speed without risking your life.
4) you will generally find that cars, and especially 911s, are more stable under power. Unless you know the cause is power-induced oversteer, your 911 is going to be happier and more stable under power.
5) it's easier to modulate power in a higher gear (though everyone thinks they need to be in the lowest gear possible). In higher speed corners, if you find you can induce oversteer relatively easily in 3rd, take the corner in 4th on the next lap and focus on carrying speed and exact throttle modulation.
6) these cars are relatively stable and progressive at the edge of the envelope, so you can "play" at the edge without risking your life. Just be smooth in adjusting the throttle and steering. A minor tweak here and there will keep you right near the edge.
The biggest difference between fast and scary-fast drivers is in corner entry speed. One way to learn this is to move your braking point back 100 feet in one particular corner, get all your braking done well before the turn-in point so you aren't fighting multiple tasks, then work on carrying speed into the corner. Look up through the whole corner and develop a "feel" for carrying a bit more speed into the corner on every lap. As soon as you get the car rotated, get on the power progressively. When the car stabilizes, you can add more power than you think (especially in a 911).
Have fun!
I don't know a lot about bikes, but I suspect you are going to find that you have a built-in caution about approaching the edge of the envelope. One of the most difficult things to learn to go from quick to fast is that the car's limit is usually well beyond your self-imposed internal limit. I suspect it's a lot easier to push a car closer to the real limit (rather than your limit), so:
1) you've got a lot more braking ability and can trail-brake without risking your life. Pick one corner and brake a little later every lap until you feel squirrely on corner entry. Do this progressively.
2) you've got a lot more traction on corner exit and can put the power down earlier without risking your life. This is especially true in a 911, which seems to be magical - the more you put the power down, the more traction you have. Pick a corner (different corner) and add power a little earlier and a little harder til it gets a little squirrely on exit. When it does, ease off just a whiff, correct steering slightly and put the power back down. Do NOT let off quickly or dramatically (but I suspect that habit is really ingrained on a bike).
3) you will be a lot more stable in transition areas with dramatic left-right shifts, you can carry WAY more speed without risking your life.
4) you will generally find that cars, and especially 911s, are more stable under power. Unless you know the cause is power-induced oversteer, your 911 is going to be happier and more stable under power.
5) it's easier to modulate power in a higher gear (though everyone thinks they need to be in the lowest gear possible). In higher speed corners, if you find you can induce oversteer relatively easily in 3rd, take the corner in 4th on the next lap and focus on carrying speed and exact throttle modulation.
6) these cars are relatively stable and progressive at the edge of the envelope, so you can "play" at the edge without risking your life. Just be smooth in adjusting the throttle and steering. A minor tweak here and there will keep you right near the edge.
The biggest difference between fast and scary-fast drivers is in corner entry speed. One way to learn this is to move your braking point back 100 feet in one particular corner, get all your braking done well before the turn-in point so you aren't fighting multiple tasks, then work on carrying speed into the corner. Look up through the whole corner and develop a "feel" for carrying a bit more speed into the corner on every lap. As soon as you get the car rotated, get on the power progressively. When the car stabilizes, you can add more power than you think (especially in a 911).
Have fun!
09-10-2015, 03:17 PM
#27
Drifting
A lot of this advice is very good, but it's also, more or less, advice for a novice. I suspect you already know how to keep your head up and know what an apex is. The following is intended for "intermediate."
I don't know a lot about bikes, but I suspect you are going to find that you have a built-in caution about approaching the edge of the envelope. One of the most difficult things to learn to go from quick to fast is that the car's limit is usually well beyond your self-imposed internal limit. I suspect it's a lot easier to push a car closer to the real limit (rather than your limit), so:
1) you've got a lot more braking ability and can trail-brake without risking your life. Pick one corner and brake a little later every lap until you feel squirrely on corner entry. Do this progressively.
2) you've got a lot more traction on corner exit and can put the power down earlier without risking your life. This is especially true in a 911, which seems to be magical - the more you put the power down, the more traction you have. Pick a corner (different corner) and add power a little earlier and a little harder til it gets a little squirrely on exit. When it does, ease off just a whiff, correct steering slightly and put the power back down. Do NOT let off quickly or dramatically (but I suspect that habit is really ingrained on a bike).
3) you will be a lot more stable in transition areas with dramatic left-right shifts, you can carry WAY more speed without risking your life.
4) you will generally find that cars, and especially 911s, are more stable under power. Unless you know the cause is power-induced oversteer, your 911 is going to be happier and more stable under power.
5) it's easier to modulate power in a higher gear (though everyone thinks they need to be in the lowest gear possible). In higher speed corners, if you find you can induce oversteer relatively easily in 3rd, take the corner in 4th on the next lap and focus on carrying speed and exact throttle modulation.
6) these cars are relatively stable and progressive at the edge of the envelope, so you can "play" at the edge without risking your life. Just be smooth in adjusting the throttle and steering. A minor tweak here and there will keep you right near the edge.
The biggest difference between fast and scary-fast drivers is in corner entry speed. One way to learn this is to move your braking point back 100 feet in one particular corner, get all your braking done well before the turn-in point so you aren't fighting multiple tasks, then work on carrying speed into the corner. Look up through the whole corner and develop a "feel" for carrying a bit more speed into the corner on every lap. As soon as you get the car rotated, get on the power progressively. When the car stabilizes, you can add more power than you think (especially in a 911).
Have fun!
I don't know a lot about bikes, but I suspect you are going to find that you have a built-in caution about approaching the edge of the envelope. One of the most difficult things to learn to go from quick to fast is that the car's limit is usually well beyond your self-imposed internal limit. I suspect it's a lot easier to push a car closer to the real limit (rather than your limit), so:
1) you've got a lot more braking ability and can trail-brake without risking your life. Pick one corner and brake a little later every lap until you feel squirrely on corner entry. Do this progressively.
2) you've got a lot more traction on corner exit and can put the power down earlier without risking your life. This is especially true in a 911, which seems to be magical - the more you put the power down, the more traction you have. Pick a corner (different corner) and add power a little earlier and a little harder til it gets a little squirrely on exit. When it does, ease off just a whiff, correct steering slightly and put the power back down. Do NOT let off quickly or dramatically (but I suspect that habit is really ingrained on a bike).
3) you will be a lot more stable in transition areas with dramatic left-right shifts, you can carry WAY more speed without risking your life.
4) you will generally find that cars, and especially 911s, are more stable under power. Unless you know the cause is power-induced oversteer, your 911 is going to be happier and more stable under power.
5) it's easier to modulate power in a higher gear (though everyone thinks they need to be in the lowest gear possible). In higher speed corners, if you find you can induce oversteer relatively easily in 3rd, take the corner in 4th on the next lap and focus on carrying speed and exact throttle modulation.
6) these cars are relatively stable and progressive at the edge of the envelope, so you can "play" at the edge without risking your life. Just be smooth in adjusting the throttle and steering. A minor tweak here and there will keep you right near the edge.
The biggest difference between fast and scary-fast drivers is in corner entry speed. One way to learn this is to move your braking point back 100 feet in one particular corner, get all your braking done well before the turn-in point so you aren't fighting multiple tasks, then work on carrying speed into the corner. Look up through the whole corner and develop a "feel" for carrying a bit more speed into the corner on every lap. As soon as you get the car rotated, get on the power progressively. When the car stabilizes, you can add more power than you think (especially in a 911).
Have fun!
09-10-2015, 03:32 PM
#28
Instructor
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Start of slow 3-5laps at a comfortable pace ...you have all day ...always skip the last session ..You avoid the " must improve my lap time" drivers out there ... Pushing there cars on worn rubber and spinning out or worse..
Look through the corners and focus on where you want the car to be at the exit of the corner.
Big tip I learnt .. Drink lots of fluids through the day...really help keep your levels of concentration up.
Have fun and don't worry ...if novice stickers are available for the rear of your car don't feel a chump to use them..normally yellow X , can save your car and others , and more experienced drivers will give you more time and room...never try to follow the line and braking point of the car ahead ...you don't know his set up ...
Take instruction ...after 40-50 hours of this ...things really start to come together and you can then start to get on the pace ..
Enjoy
Look through the corners and focus on where you want the car to be at the exit of the corner.
Big tip I learnt .. Drink lots of fluids through the day...really help keep your levels of concentration up.
Have fun and don't worry ...if novice stickers are available for the rear of your car don't feel a chump to use them..normally yellow X , can save your car and others , and more experienced drivers will give you more time and room...never try to follow the line and braking point of the car ahead ...you don't know his set up ...
Take instruction ...after 40-50 hours of this ...things really start to come together and you can then start to get on the pace ..
Enjoy
09-10-2015, 03:59 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone for the advice and links to articles - all great stuff.
I agree with Jeff on Earlier's suggestions and to be honest I think he got my experience level spot on. I can hustle a bike around a track but I don't want to think or believe that just because I can do that I can do it in a rocket ship of a GT3. A lot of the biking experience helps in a car but I know it's not all the same and so I was seeking some general, higher level thoughts on what to practice - a bit like going to the golf driving range and having no plan on what to practice, hit 100 ***** and just ingrain bad habits.
I'm really looking forward to Joe's track day as he's kept numbers to 30 cars, he knows everyone there and their abilities plus he runs a tight ship!! There won't be any instructors there hence my thread and yes I'm pretty certain one of the advanced drivers will help out as well.
I agree with Jeff on Earlier's suggestions and to be honest I think he got my experience level spot on. I can hustle a bike around a track but I don't want to think or believe that just because I can do that I can do it in a rocket ship of a GT3. A lot of the biking experience helps in a car but I know it's not all the same and so I was seeking some general, higher level thoughts on what to practice - a bit like going to the golf driving range and having no plan on what to practice, hit 100 ***** and just ingrain bad habits.
I'm really looking forward to Joe's track day as he's kept numbers to 30 cars, he knows everyone there and their abilities plus he runs a tight ship!! There won't be any instructors there hence my thread and yes I'm pretty certain one of the advanced drivers will help out as well.
09-10-2015, 07:26 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Your going to do just fine at the track. Most of the folks I instruct that come from a motorcycle racing background get it. They know the importance of hitting the marks then building speed.
One bit of advise for you would be to have patience with the car as it takes longer for load transfer/suspension set.
Have fun
One bit of advise for you would be to have patience with the car as it takes longer for load transfer/suspension set.
Have fun