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The normally aspirated 911 Carrera has become a thing of the past, but Mössle suggests Porsche might yet build a limited edition model – apart from the GT3 and RS version – that uses an atmospheric engine: ‘There will never be another series production normally aspirated 911,’ he says, ‘but maybe we will do some special edition cars.’
It's just another vague response that can be read either way:
1) GT3 isn't a special edition car so it's done; (I'm in this camp) or
2) GT3 is a special edition car so it's protected
Read it whichever way makes you happy
Here's the only confirmed piece of information that we can expected a Hybrid 911 by 2018 (but my money is on before). Note this is from AP's boss as well:
Two of Porsche's most senior executives have all but confirmed that the sports car company's most iconic model, the 911, will go hybrid -- in the form of the next-generation all-wheel drive 911 Carrera 4.
Although purists may scoff, Porsche is convinced of the merits of a petrol-electric hybrid 911, which will leverage the technology used in Zuffenhausen's current Le Mans sports car campaign.
Even former Australian F1 and now Porsche race car driver Mark Webber is behind the idea, saying customers are ready to embrace the next step in sports cars.
Although the specifications of the next-generation 911, due in about three years, won't be known until closer to its premiere, details of the first Porsche 911 hybrid are taking shape – potentially a Carrera 4 with electrically-driven front wheels and petrol-powered rear wheels.
This could be the first cab off the 911 hybrid rank, explained Dr Frank-Stefan Walliser, Porsche's motorsport boss, during the world's most famous sports car race, the Le Mans 24 Hours.
"It would be a Carrera 4, why not? With four-wheel drive what you can do, the freedom you have how to use the traction, you're not depending on the speed between the different axles," he said, highlighting the benefits of doing away with a central differential.
Porsche will use September's Frankfurt motor show to reveal a facelifted version of the current 911 (991-series), which will adopt downsized turbo-petrol engines.
However, the 911 (992-series) due in 2018 will require more drastic measures to meet tighter CO2 emissions, hence the adoption of hybrid technology.
It's no secret that Porsche is a keen purveyor of plug-in hybrid technology, with the Cayenne SUV, Panamera sedan and 918 Spyder supercar all making use of electric power to boost performance and reduce emissions. But as Walliser explains, a hybrid Porsche 911 is a trickier proposition because of the history and prestige behind the iconic badge.
"It has to feel like a Porsche and like a 911. It must drive like these cars always drive," he said of a hybrid version, with the first iterations likely to be naturally aspirated – meaning that not all of Porsche's next-generation 911's will be turbocharged.
"I would say normally aspirated [engine] is the better choice [for 911 hybrid]. You save the weight of the turbo and you have the low-end torque of the electric motors so that fits normally better."
The Porsche executive also noted that "I expect we'll end up with every model line with a plug-in hybrid".
The man who will have the final say, Porsche's research and development boss Dr Wolfgang Hatz, is also pushing for a non-turbo 911 hybrid.
"He's totally convinced about that, yeah," says Walliser. "We are both fighting for normally aspirated engines in hybrid cars."
Dr Hatz was also unequivocal, pointing to the trickle-down effect its motorsport technology will have on the 911.
"Most people believe hybrid is [Toyota] Prius. And slow and no fun to drive. Porsche is different. I love hyrbids – if they are powerful," he told motoring.com.au, highlighting the 652kW Porsche 918 Spyder as a case in point.
"For sure [when] an all-new 911 comes, I have to have the opportunity to do that [hybrid]."
Perhaps the biggest issue facing a Porsche 911 plug-in hybrid, which would ostensibly be heavier but more powerful than current models, would be customer acceptance, but Hatz says buyers will "absolutely" embrace the idea.
"A lot of people think hybrid is just for fuel economy, but hybrid can be also fun. I am convinced of the concept," he stated. "Absolutely."
"Personally I'm a strong supporter of hybrid technology. I push hard for this. I tell you if it improves performance, then we need it on our sports cars. If it's fun to drive, people will want that."
Australian sports car driver and former F1 winner Mark Webber agrees, saying that 911 buyers will "definitely" welcome the new hybrid technology.
"They will, because we're not easy to convince, as racing drivers, with this technology," says the Porsche 919 driver at Le Mans.
Webber also hinted the downsized turbo-petrol 911s due later in the year and hybrid versions will raise eyebrows.
"When you see the massive downsize in engines and very, very, very awesome turbo tech, consumption is low and you've got the interface of the hybrid side.
"If you had this in its crude sense, it'd be hard to use day to day. But now, literally the stuff we're doing, the options available off the back of this [Le Mans motorsport] program, it's some good stuff," grinned the Australian.
Well said. As much as I want to see NA, they're a business and I think they've backed themselves into a corner:
Marketing turbos and efficiency throughout range
Racing turbos in the 919 and perhaps soon in the RSR
Tough to give GT3 the required performance gap over the turbo Carrera S/GTS without making it very expensive (if NA remains)
The competition is running away; new Ferrari 488 is up ~100 bhp on the outgoing 458
Etc.
The assumption here is that Porsche actually wants to keep up with Ferrari, Vette, etc. I don't think they do.
Porsche has been releasing power in 20 hp chunks for the last couple decades. Ferrari, Vette, Mercedes AMG, etc have been taking 50-100 hp leaps. Technically Porsche could keep up if they want to. They choose not to. The question is why?
EVO's review of the 488 gives the game away:
"The simple facts are that the new engine gives you more of what you can't use (outright power)..."
Porsche makes street cars. In the GT cars' case they're trackable, but they're not formula cars or class racers. And the issue with street cars is surprisingly obvious when you step back: they're getting too fast. Tesla P85D- 2.8 to 60. Hellcat, 204 mph for 50k. With back seats...
Every race series uses rules to limit car performance to match the roads they race on. Rally cars get 300 hp, Top Fuel dragsters get 10,000, but they are all limited in the end.
There are no equivalent rules for street cars. So a 918 has a higher power to weight ratio than a Gruppe B car or most GT cars. Pros couldn't use those cars on the street. It's little surprise we can't either. Driving a 918 on the street was for me a surprising experience, because having performance you can't use is simply unsatisfying. If cars are matched to roads, which US roads is a 918 matched to?
The 488, Z06, GT-R are chasing numbers, but at the end of the day the old adage still rings true: it's not how fast you go, but how you go fast.
Porsche could catch the competition if they wanted to. In all likelihood, however, their cars would be less fun to drive for it. To finish the other half of the EVO quote, going Turbo in the GT3 would bring "...less of everything that can make any journey feel special (immediacy of throttle response, noise and that feral rush to 9000 rpm)."
Porsche is intentionally limiting virtually every car they make to insure they don't get too much faster. More speed with commensurate increases in grip and ease of use (PDK, RWS, etc) is OK. More power without other improvements isn't. There's no technical hurdle to making more power normally aspirated or otherwise from the 9A1- we know it can easily go to 4.2L or greater. But why bother if the car's as fast as you want it to be? Make the car cheaper instead- share 90%+ of the engine parts with the base Boxster, for example, or use a steel chassis when others are using aluminum and carbon. Sound familiar?
We're all here because we like speed. And most of us have been chasing more of it for our entire lives. The automotive world has been chasing it since inception. Yet there are limits even engineers can't address, and those limits are roads. Porsche figured this out decades ago, and since then have been adding power 20 hp at a time. They are dragging us as customers along behind them slowly, but we generally think they're right whether we realize it or not. Otherwise we'd be off driving Z06s or GT-Rs... and having less fun.
So if the 991.2 GT3 is going to be turbo what engine are they going to put in it? The 991.1 Turbo engine and de-tune? Doesn't make much sense. And yes, if the base on the 991.2 GT3 is around $150k I'll still end up buying the car ONLY IF it's NA. If it's turbo, I'll pass and move on to a 458.
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
Embargo on 991.2 Carrera (S) Breaks - What does it mean for 991.2 GT3? Think turbos..
That's why GT4 is the parts bin special bargain of the century. Wish I could get 2 : one to drive/one to bubble wrap.
Nobody will remember PDK as a future classic because there will be super lightning fast eye blink controlled transmission.
Turbos 911-what a joke! I'd rather take a small NA engine assisted by an electrical motor.
Porsche makes street cars. In the GT cars' case they're trackable, but they're not formula cars or class racers. And the issue with street cars is surprisingly obvious when you step back: they're getting too fast. Tesla P85D- 2.8 to 60. Hellcat, 204 mph for 50k. With back seats...
...
Porsche is intentionally limiting virtually every car they make to insure they don't get too much faster.
...
We're all here because we like speed. And most of us have been chasing more of it for our entire lives. The automotive world has been chasing it since inception. Yet there are limits even engineers can't address, and those limits are roads.
IMO, the 991 GT3 is already too capable and fast to be properly enjoyed on the vast majority of US roads, and the introduction of the 991 was a big step in giving up much of the classic 911 dynamic in exchange for more performance.
But for the track, I think the 991 GT3 pretty much nails it. It's fast - but not too fast - fun and rewarding, and the PDK feels right at home. I'd like to say bulletproof also, but there are some unfortunate exceptions.
Our GT4 should be here in a month or two, and I look forward to giving it a try.
OTOH, they're pretty smart, and may have some tricks up their sleeves. Porsche isn't known for blunders in developing their product portfolio in recent years.
I've learned not to doubt their engineering abilities.
Originally Posted by Petevb
The assumption here is that Porsche actually wants to keep up with Ferrari, Vette, etc. I don't think they do.
Porsche has been releasing power in 20 hp chunks for the last couple decades. Ferrari, Vette, Mercedes AMG, etc have been taking 50-100 hp leaps. Technically Porsche could keep up if they want to. They choose not to. The question is why?
EVO's review of the 488 gives the game away:
"The simple facts are that the new engine gives you more of what you can't use (outright power)..."
Porsche makes street cars. In the GT cars' case they're trackable, but they're not formula cars or class racers. And the issue with street cars is surprisingly obvious when you step back: they're getting too fast. Tesla P85D- 2.8 to 60. Hellcat, 204 mph for 50k. With back seats...
Every race series uses rules to limit car performance to match the roads they race on. Rally cars get 300 hp, Top Fuel dragsters get 10,000, but they are all limited in the end.
There are no equivalent rules for street cars. So a 918 has a higher power to weight ratio than a Gruppe B car or most GT cars. Pros couldn't use those cars on the street. It's little surprise we can't either. Driving a 918 on the street was for me a surprising experience, because having performance you can't use is simply unsatisfying. If cars are matched to roads, which US roads is a 918 matched to?
The 488, Z06, GT-R are chasing numbers, but at the end of the day the old adage still rings true: it's not how fast you go, but how you go fast.
Porsche could catch the competition if they wanted to. In all likelihood, however, their cars would be less fun to drive for it. To finish the other half of the EVO quote, going Turbo in the GT3 would bring "...less of everything that can make any journey feel special (immediacy of throttle response, noise and that feral rush to 9000 rpm)."
Porsche is intentionally limiting virtually every car they make to insure they don't get too much faster. More speed with commensurate increases in grip and ease of use (PDK, RWS, etc) is OK. More power without other improvements isn't. There's no technical hurdle to making more power normally aspirated or otherwise from the 9A1- we know it can easily go to 4.2L or greater. But why bother if the car's as fast as you want it to be? Make the car cheaper instead- share 90%+ of the engine parts with the base Boxster, for example, or use a steel chassis when others are using aluminum and carbon. Sound familiar?
We're all here because we like speed. And most of us have been chasing more of it for our entire lives. The automotive world has been chasing it since inception. Yet there are limits even engineers can't address, and those limits are roads. Porsche figured this out decades ago, and since then have been adding power 20 hp at a time. They are dragging us as customers along behind them slowly, but we generally think they're right whether we realize it or not. Otherwise we'd be off driving Z06s or GT-Rs... and having less fun.
I was hoping you'd weigh in, and I'm glad you did.
I agree with you that Porsche has not relentlessly chased their (perceived) competition; we can dig up old R&T and C&D issues from the 1980s and 1990s and the relationship between the 911, Corvette, and V-8 Ferrari are about what they are now, in terms of price and performance.
However. I am not certain that Porsche can continue marketing the 911 - in particular the GT3 - on established brand and intangibles, at least in the near- and intermediate-term. How can you quantify "fun" or "feel" or "involvement" to buyers who are not as engaged as those participating in this thread? At the very least, I think the next GT3 has to offer some numerical, quantifiable advantage versus the 911s that are positioned beneath it in the model hierarchy (especially the forthcoming GTS), even though many GT3 buyers won't make a buying decision based on that criteria, either alone or at all.
I agree with you that Porsche has not relentlessly chased their (perceived) competition; we can dig up old R&T and C&D issues from the 1980s and 1990s and the relationship between the 911, Corvette, and V-8 Ferrari are about what they are now, in terms of price and performance.
I think it can seem that way, but I step back and see a different picture:
And the old defense, that the competition can't turn, or isn't durable around a track, is going away. The original 996.1 GT3 was the fastest car around the 'ring when it was released, period. Today you've got Vipers, Vettes and Nissans that are both cheaper and faster than a 991 GT3 or GT3 RS.
Those cars used to be drag racers, then they got brakes and learned to turn. You've got dry sumps, etc that are making inroads on Porsche's legendary durability advantage. I'd argue they are generally not there yet, but I'd also argue that the competitive landscape has changed significantly in the last couple decades...
Originally Posted by Guest89
However. I am not certain that Porsche can continue marketing the 911 - in particular the GT3 - on established brand and intangibles, at least in the near- and intermediate-term. How can you quantify "fun" or "feel" or "involvement" to buyers who are not as engaged as those participating in this thread?
Herein lies the problem. Yet Porsche is pulling it off, at least so far. My first car was an '86 944 Turbo, and it was within a stone's throw of the Vette in '86 in terms of price/ performance: 220 German horses (before I chipped it) pushing ~2850 lbs vs 230 US horses pushing ~3200 lbs. 32k vs 26k, and the Porsche had heaps more durability and quality.
Today the Vette's up to 55k, so the equivalent ~20% more expensive Porsche is a $65k Cayman S. The power gap meanwhile has gone from 10 hp... to 135 hp. Yet Porsche is still selling lots of cars. Still on the back of superior durability and quality, but also on the "fun", "feel" and "involvement" you mention above. Because honestly somewhere in the back of our minds we already know- the Vette might be faster, but that doesn't mean it's more fun.
Originally Posted by Guest89
At the very least, I think the next GT3 has to offer some numerical, quantifiable advantage versus the 911s that are positioned beneath it in the model hierarchy (especially the forthcoming GTS)
That's completely true. Porsche's customers still demand that if they pay more they need to get more (performance, in this case). But by bumping the 991.2 just 20 hp that leaves plenty of room for the GT3 to gain just 25 hp, and everyone will stay happy...
I think it can seem that way, but I step back and see a different picture:
And the old defense, that the competition can't turn, or isn't durable around a track, is going away. The original 996.1 GT3 was the fastest car around the 'ring when it was released, period. Today you've got Vipers, Vettes and Nissans that are both cheaper and faster than a 991 GT3 or GT3 RS.
Those cars used to be drag racers, then they got brakes and learned to turn. You've got dry sumps, etc that are making inroads on Porsche's legendary durability advantage. I'd argue they are generally not there yet, but I'd also argue that the competitive landscape has changed significantly in the last couple decades...
Herein lies the problem. Yet Porsche is pulling it off, at least so far. My first car was an '86 944 Turbo, and it was within a stone's throw of the Vette in '86 in terms of price/ performance: 220 German horses (before I chipped it) pushing ~2850 lbs vs 230 US horses pushing ~3200 lbs. 32k vs 26k, and the Porsche had heaps more durability and quality.
Today the Vette's up to 55k, so the equivalent ~20% more expensive Porsche is a $65k Cayman S. The power gap meanwhile has gone from 10 hp... to 135 hp. Yet Porsche is still selling lots of cars. Still on the back of superior durability and quality, but also on the "fun", "feel" and "involvement" you mention above. Because honestly somewhere in the back of our minds we already know- the Vette might be faster, but that doesn't mean it's more fun.
That's completely true. Porsche's customers still demand that if they pay more they need to get more (performance, in this case). But by bumping the 991.2 just 20 hp that leaves plenty of room for the GT3 to gain just 25 hp, and everyone will stay happy...
Excellent points.
The power to weight ratio is, IMO, a proxy for overall performance, no?
Did you do a similar chart with lap times?
Rarely does a marketing press release emphasize power to weight ratio to the extent that lap times are trumpeted, especially at the Nurburgring...
As for the competition catching up; Ford claims that the GT350R will lap with a GT3, at least over a single lap. The single lap stat is for sales and marketing and PR; the ability to lap consistently throughout a DE session is of less importance for marketing, as it doesn't come across as forcefully when, say, bragging to your friends about how fast your car (theoretically) is. It is of importance to people who will track their cars, but that's such a small subset of performance car buyers...
The power to weight ratio is, IMO, a proxy for overall performance, no?
Did you do a similar chart with lap times?
I did start that chart, but it's got a lot of holes so far due to lack of good data.
You can predict lap time with reasonably accuracy if you know tires and power to weight ratio. Some cars screw it up (ie 458, Camaro ZL1) or do particularly well (GT-R) but generally with good suspension and known tires power to weight is a decent proxy.
Everything Porsche is doing is being driven politically by the strength of the green party in Germany. Logic and desire on power etc don't come into it - their message at the last shareholder meeting was very hybrid focused, as was their pre-LeMans press conference this year.
I believe Porsche held out as long as they could and they're the last German marque to cave, but it's a one way street...
I did start that chart, but it's got a lot of holes so far due to lack of good data.
You can predict lap time with reasonably accuracy if you know tires and power to weight ratio. Some cars screw it up (ie 458, Camaro ZL1) or do particularly well (GT-R) but generally with good suspension and known tires power to weight is a decent proxy.
Of course the Cayenne is carrying a small supercomputer worth of systems and assistance to get there, but...
It is of course difficult to find reliable data for lap times on the Ring; different days, different drivers, a million variables truly.
Originally Posted by NateOZ
Everything Porsche is doing is being driven politically by the strength of the green party in Germany. Logic and desire on power etc don't come into it - their message at the last shareholder meeting was very hybrid focused, as was their pre-LeMans press conference this year.
I believe Porsche held out as long as they could and they're the last German marque to cave, but it's a one way street...
Can you elaborate a little more on the tone of the shareholder meeting?
Would love some insight.
As for the other marques in Deutschland, how many NA engines do any of them make?
New R8 is NA V10 - and also under the VAG umbrella! - but I can't think of any others off the top of my head (although there are probably a few stragglers).
New R8 is NA V10 - and also under the VAG umbrella! - but I can't think of any others off the top of my head (although there are probably a few stragglers).
Lamborghini Huracan.
But that's just another way of saying "Audi R8" in Italian.
But that's just another way of saying "Audi R8" in Italian.
I meant German cars, but yeah the Audi R8 in a nicer suit is quite the car.
I have never liked Lamborghini as a brand; to me it's just a karaoke Ferrari, and I grew up after the Countach era (born in 1989) so I never experienced the heyday.
That said, the Huracan is one of the most striking and arresting pieces of automotive sculpture created in my lifetime, and the massive NA V10 is a big middle finger to political correctness. I really like the car.
I have yet to read, hear or see any real discussion (from the media, government or car manufacturers) how upcoming regs will affect the industry - specifically.
I'll say what no one else will: The Germans, among many others, continue to go completely off their respective rocker when it involves the farce that is 'Climate Change' or whatever PC name is given to it as of today. I don't wish to get into a discussion of climate change, CO2 regs, or anything similar. But I can't help but wonder if VAG's, Porsche's, Europe's, USA's switch to smaller force-fed engines will ever even counterbalance a day's worth of C02 or real pollution pumped into the atmosphere by China.
How about a single flight in a jumbo jet by our "climate friendly" politicians, or Hollywood movie stars like Leonardo DiCaprio? I can't cite the artilcle I read not to long ago that put into numbers that 1 massive container ship carrying cheap Chinese made products into the USA puts out as much C02 as every car combined in the US on any given day. That article no longer exists on the Web. Hmm... Was it full of false data, or?
To use Porsche as an example:
If they were really trying to lower their overall fleet average why start the process of downsizing engines on the 911 model line first? Wouldn't lowering 'consumption' in their best sellers be more effective, while leaving the NA sports cars alone? Doesn't the Cayenne, Macan & Panamera sell in greater numbers? Aren't those heavier vehicles as well? Why wouldn't they concentrate first on downsizing the big V8's and V6TT in those models to high-pressure four bangers like Mercedes did with the CLA 45 AMG for instance?
Every time I think I'd be fine with thought of a future 99? C4S or GT3/RS with a NA engine + hybrid (which gets my vote over being turbo) I think how unbelievably complex and expensive the 918 is. And the thought of a potential 5-figure repair or maintenance bill on a 911 is of major concern.
09-08-2015, 04:57 PM
politicians, or Hollywood movie stars like Leonardo DiCaprio? I can't cite the artilcle I read not to long ago that put into numbers that 1 massive container ship carrying cheap Chinese made products into the USA puts out as much C02 as every car combined in the US on any given day. That article no longer exists on the Web. Hmm... Was it full of false data, or?