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Embargo on 991.2 Carrera (S) Breaks - What does it mean for 991.2 GT3? Think turbos..

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Embargo on 991.2 Carrera (S) Breaks - What does it mean for 991.2 GT3? Think turbos..

 
Old 09-07-2015, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Zero911 View Post
I bet the 991.2 GT3 will still be NA and just be a refresh of the interior/exterior to match the changes in the 991.2 Carreras.

Porsche lost money on the engine issues and suffered a black eye. AP has also said they will continue with NA for the "foreseeable" future. A move to Turbo now would be a mistake. Given the demand for the GT3 and RS, I would think Porsche would milk it some more with an interior/exterior refresh only for the .2.

Then they will make big decisions for 992.

At least that's what I'm hoping for.
Why reinvent the wheel when they can throw the 4.0 .1RS engine in the .2GT3 and then do something different to squeeze out another 20-25hp out of the 4.0 .1RS engine for the .2RS. Then give the option for manual or PDK for the GT4 with a tune for the .2GT4 to get to 400-415hp. Done, easy peazy. Where should I submit my resume to the PAG GT motorsport group?
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3 View Post
Why reinvent the wheel when they can throw the 4.0 .1RS engine in the .2GT3 and then do something different to squeeze out another 20-25hp out of the 4.0 .1RS engine for the .2RS. Then give the option for manual or PDK for the GT4 with a tune for the .2GT4 to get to 400-415hp. Done, easy peazy. Where should I submit my resume to the PAG GT motorsport group?
Keeping my fingers crossed. Go make it happen!!
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Old 09-07-2015, 09:48 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Zero911 View Post
I bet the 991.2 GT3 will still be NA and just be a refresh of the interior/exterior to match the changes in the 991.2 Carreras.

Porsche lost money on the engine issues and suffered a black eye. AP has also said they will continue with NA for the "foreseeable" future. A move to Turbo now would be a mistake. Given the demand for the GT3 and RS, I would think Porsche would milk it some more with an interior/exterior refresh only for the .2.

Then they will make big decisions for 992.

At least that's what I'm hoping for.
Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3 View Post
Why reinvent the wheel when they can throw the 4.0 .1RS engine in the .2GT3 and then do something different to squeeze out another 20-25hp out of the 4.0 .1RS engine for the .2RS. Then give the option for manual or PDK for the GT4 with a tune for the .2GT4 to get to 400-415hp. Done, easy peazy. Where should I submit my resume to the PAG GT motorsport group?
I covered a few of these things in the OP, but I'll summarize:

Porsche as a company is marketing turbos in the 911, an NA halo car is contradictory to that

There is no link between the engine in the GT3 (RS) and the RSR at the moment, and worldwide GT3/GTE fields are moving rapidly to turbos

A few months ago I would've said that PAG would just put the 4.0 engine in the GT3, but now I think otherwise. As Petevb has ably demonstrated, Porsche positions their cars based on value, and GTx cars have historically punched above their weight versus the remainder of the lineup. I have a hunch that Porsche will want to continue that strategy going forward.

I am no huge fan of Nurburgring lap times, but they are a reality under which modern sports car manufacturers must operate; in order to sell a new sports car (or entice owners of the outgoing car to trade up), the new car has to be quantifiably, empirically "better," and what better way to depict that? Of course it's always difficult to compare lap times - different days, different drivers, tire pressures, etc. - but it doesn't really matter for this exercise, because these are the official times that Porsche has published to market the cars, and they don't asterisk the times with a paragraph of disclaimers and caveats.

991.1 Lap Times:

Carrera S PDK = 7:38
991 GT3 = 7:25
991 GT3 RS = 7:20

The GT3 is 13 seconds faster than the Carrera S; if that gap holds, then the next GT3 will need to turn a 7:17, faster than the RS. And also faster than the GT2 RS, which turned a 7:18.

How can Porsche do that for the base GT3? If they put all the features from the RS into the next GT3 - 4.0 liter engine, enormous wing that makes the car an embarrassing proposition for driving anywhere except the race track, tacky vents, 21" rear wheels, exotic materials for the roof, frunk, and engine cover, etc. they are still too slow, and they haven't really offered a GT3 (the wing alone will turn off many potential buyers, because the car won't be as versatile as the former GT3). Recall that the RS is over $40k more expensive than the GT3, as well.

Further, I don't think they can just "do something different" and magically create another 20-25 horsepower on the current 9A1-derived GT3 engine; the engine is tapped out in terms of specific output, which is why they went to 4.0 liter displacement for the RS. Oh, and you want a warranty, right?

So what CAN they do, that will allow them to offer a car that achieves the requisite performance to market the car and position it as they historically have versus the Carrera S? In terms of performance differentiation and pricing?

Easy, turbo engine.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:09 PM
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Speculation IMHO, but I am happy if the next gen GT3 goes turbo... bcos I will flog off my NA GT3 to a buyer who "violently" disagrees with a GT car being turbocharged, and use that change to buy me a 991.2 "GT2".... have not tried a GT2 before so am keen on that prospect.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
I covered a few of these things in the OP, but I'll summarize:

Porsche as a company is marketing turbos in the 911, an NA halo car is contradictory to that
Simple answer- 991 GT2 with at least 600HP.

That fulfills the mission of a turbo halo car than is sought after, and this glow shines down on the lesser Porsche turbo models.

Meanwhile, while 90% of new P-cars will be manufactured as turbos, Porsche will continue to offer NA GT3, GT3RS, and GT4. Why? because there is fervent global demand for raw NA track ready sports cars.
PAG is aware of this demand, and will not turn off most of the motorsports enthusiasts in the world, by producing only turbo cars.

PAG is aware of the significant demand for the GT3, GT3RS, and GT4, and they are also aware of the rapid appreciation of air cooled 911s and 997 GT cars. Porsche is too smart to completely turn their back on all the enthusiasts that made them rich, and that still want a raw NA emotional experience in their sports car.

Meanwhile, they will continue to sell turbos to the Porsche poseur crowd.

Last edited by Drifting; 09-07-2015 at 10:16 PM. Reason: .
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:19 PM
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It's all too easy for Porsche given what they've already developed - take the 4.0 TT out of the new TT and TTS. Drop the detuned TT unit in the current GT3 setup and call it a GT2, drop the TTS version in the current GT3 RS setup and call it a GT2 RS.

Minimal R&D and development costs and big performance gain, less warranty liability and risk given the R&D budget and time that goes into making the TT.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NateOZ View Post
It's all too easy for Porsche given what they've already developed - take the 4.0 TT out of the new TT and TTS. Drop the detuned TT unit in the current GT3 setup and call it a GT2, drop the TTS version in the current GT3 RS setup and call it a GT2 RS.

Minimal R&D and development costs and big performance gain, less warranty liability and risk given the R&D budget and time that goes into making the TT.
You just described the GT4 formula.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NateOZ View Post
It's all too easy for Porsche given what they've already developed - take the 4.0 TT out of the new TT and TTS. Drop the detuned TT unit in the current GT3 setup and call it a GT2, drop the TTS version in the current GT3 RS setup and call it a GT2 RS.

Minimal R&D and development costs and big performance gain, less warranty liability and risk given the R&D budget and time that goes into making the TT.
Ding ding.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:51 PM
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Then how about a friendly wager for charity Guest and Nate? It's a win-win for everyone and will make things a bit more interesting.
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Old 09-07-2015, 11:09 PM
  #40  
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So is the Carrera S lap time 7:30 or 7:38? Either way, though the Carrera S isn't developed for Sport Cup 2 tires, putting those tires on it would close most or all of the gap to the GT3. Going forward, maybe the purpose of the GT3 won't be about going much faster than the Carrera S on track, but rather being more durable, reliable, and enjoyable on track, at a cost that isn't a lot more. And I'll speculate that some sort of GT2 is in the works.
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Old 09-07-2015, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Manifold View Post
So is the Carrera S lap time 7:30 or 7:38? Either way, though the Carrera S isn't developed for Sport Cup 2 tires, putting those tires on it would close most or all of the gap to the GT3. Going forward, maybe the purpose of the GT3 won't be about going much faster than the Carrera S on track, but rather being more durable, reliable, and enjoyable on track, at a cost that isn't a lot more. And I'll speculate that some sort of GT2 is in the works.
I don't think it's just the tires that allow for the improved 991.2 C2S laptimes.

I'm thinking the added RWS has quite a bit to do with it.
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Old 09-07-2015, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Manifold View Post
So is the Carrera S lap time 7:30 or 7:38? Either way, though the Carrera S isn't developed for Sport Cup 2 tires, putting those tires on it would close most or all of the gap to the GT3. Going forward, maybe the purpose of the GT3 won't be about going much faster than the Carrera S on track, but rather being more durable, reliable, and enjoyable on track, at a cost that isn't a lot more. And I'll speculate that some sort of GT2 is in the works.
991.1 was 7:38
991.2 is 7:30

That sales tactic will work on Rennlist, but it's a flimsy way to market a $150K indulgence to the wider audience IMO.
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Old 09-07-2015, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ipse dixit View Post
I don't think it's just the tires that allow for the improved 991.2 C2S laptimes.

I'm thinking the added RWS has quite a bit to do with it.
I'm saying that the Carrera S will be faster with Sport Cup 2 tires. Close or even with the GT3.

Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
That sales tactic will work on Rennlist, but it's a flimsy way to market a $150K indulgence to the wider audience IMO.
I wouldn't want to hammer a Carrera S all day on the track, day after day, year after year. For me, needs to be a Porsche GT car.
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Old 09-08-2015, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Manifold View Post
I'm saying that the Carrera S will be faster with Sport Cup 2 tires. Close or even with the GT3.


I wouldn't want to hammer a Carrera S all day on the track, day after day, year after year. For me, needs to be a Porsche GT car.
Agree on both points, but that won't sell a GT3 over a Carrera S to every GT3 intender/aspirant.
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Old 09-08-2015, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
Agree on both points, but that won't sell a GT3 over a Carrera S to every GT3 intender/aspirant.
That's why the next GT3 will finally get a 4.0L engine, and hopefully get lighter through new materials.
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