Autocar: 996 GT3 vs 997 GT3 vs 991 GT3
08-06-2015, 05:09 PM
#17
Addict
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08-06-2015, 05:34 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
08-06-2015, 06:08 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Thank you ...well said...I dont get people saying the much faster, better handling, better sounding and better looking car is some how unpure. I have been a life long manual transmission sports car guy and I have driven lucky enough to have driven many great and legendary sports cars thru out my long life. I can honesty say that thePDK-S is involving enough that I do not miss a manual transmission the GT3. I personally hated the rough ride and stiff clutch of the 996 GT3. If not not wanting to get beat up makes me less of driving enthusiast, then be it.
^^^I so much agree 100%. I've only ever driven manual sport cars until my recent GT3 and I can honestly say I will choose a PDK over a MT in the next GT3, assuming there's that option.
08-08-2015, 12:41 AM
#22
RL Community Team
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08-08-2015, 02:13 AM
#23
GT3 player par excellence
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they are different animals.
smart man. you should buy all of them back though. i am
08-08-2015, 02:42 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
It isn't about the money.
They are different driving experiences. For cars directly in a lineage, the change in feel, nature and involvement is staggering. Both are fantastic, truly sporty and thrilling. The newer car is certainly faster and easier (not EASY, but EASIER) to drive near the limits. In the 997 I feel I need to be an excellent driver to drive it really well. In the 991 I feel like the car is making me a better driver than I am.
The 991 revs beautifully and howls at the 6-7-8k revs, but the 997 Mezger is MORE exciting to me, in how it sounds, how it growls above 4K, and how it surges. To me, the Mezger mill has more character.
I have both and really enjoy both (like I enjoy great sushi in Japan or a steamed Maine lobster, both delicious, but very different).
But here is main reason why someone would chose the 997 GT3 over the 991 GT3 -- THEY JUST LIKE DRIVING IT MORE.
They are different driving experiences. For cars directly in a lineage, the change in feel, nature and involvement is staggering. Both are fantastic, truly sporty and thrilling. The newer car is certainly faster and easier (not EASY, but EASIER) to drive near the limits. In the 997 I feel I need to be an excellent driver to drive it really well. In the 991 I feel like the car is making me a better driver than I am.
The 991 revs beautifully and howls at the 6-7-8k revs, but the 997 Mezger is MORE exciting to me, in how it sounds, how it growls above 4K, and how it surges. To me, the Mezger mill has more character.
I have both and really enjoy both (like I enjoy great sushi in Japan or a steamed Maine lobster, both delicious, but very different).
But here is main reason why someone would chose the 997 GT3 over the 991 GT3 -- THEY JUST LIKE DRIVING IT MORE.
There have been several car mags comparing different generations of the 911 GT3 now.
In my opinion, there are only 2 reasons to choose a 997.2 GT3 over a 991 GT3.
1) You want to drive a manual transmission 911 GT3.
2) You want to spend less money to get a 911 GT3 (assuming the values of used 997 GT3's don't exceed the value of 991 GT3's).
All other reasons that are commonly mentioned by the so called "purists" are soft and not as relevant for most drivers/enthusiasts.
991 GT3 electric power steering?......sure the hydraulic system had better feel, but for virtually any application (street driving, mountain/canyon road driving, track driving, drifting), it's a non-issue. The 991 GT3 has very accurate steering and you CAN tell when then front tires are losing grip when pushing the car into understeer.
The 991 GT3 has too many electronics/computers driving itself?........stability and traction control can be completely disabled if you want. The PDK-S in manual mode gives you complete control over gear selection, allowing you to bounce off the rev limiter if you want without the transmission upshifting on its own. Rear wheel steering: a mechanical method to increase cornering agility/stability when the driver turns the steering wheel. E-diff (electronically controlled mechanical limited slip differential): acts just like a conventional limited slip differential except that it is more flexible in terms of having variable lock-up ability and even completely open differential to have the best of both worlds. Torque vectoring: yes, this feature actively brakes individual wheels to improve turn-in ability as it generates a natural yaw force when the driver turns the steering wheel........is this "cheating"??......a grey area.......I would say ABS with the computer actively pumping the brakes completely out of the control of the human is "cheating" even more.
The 991 GT3 has to be driven too fast to enjoy on the road?........irrelevant for most people. Unless you regularly drive way above the speed limit with drifting on city roads, this point is mute. You will have the same problem in a 997 or 996 GT3. Even my 10 year old C55 AMG can't be taken anywhere near it's limits safely on any city road. The track is the only place where most modern performance/sports cars' performance capability can be safely exploited and exceeded if desired.
The 991 GT3 is too easy to drive?........this point puzzles me. Previous 911's had more understeer and more snap oversteer tendencies due to it's rear engine placement. As such, they were harder to drive fast and the limits were lower. Now the 991 GT3 has dialed out understeer and oversteer, and is significantly more capable in terms of cornering speeds and is faster in terms of acceleration too, which means almost all drivers will be able to drive faster as the limits are much higher. What is the problem with that???
In addition to the very high cornering speeds which you can "feel", the 991 GT3's engine revs so fast and loud to its redline that you have to be dead to not feel excited when driving this car.
Which brings me back to my original point. The ONLY "advantages" the 997.2 GT3 has over the 991 GT3 is the increased involvement that comes with driving a stick shift manual transmission, and price. And in my opinion, there is no reason to choose a 996 GT3 over a 997 GT3, unless you really prefer the looks of the 996, and you prefer a much harsher ride with less capability, or if price is the main deciding factor.
In my opinion, there are only 2 reasons to choose a 997.2 GT3 over a 991 GT3.
1) You want to drive a manual transmission 911 GT3.
2) You want to spend less money to get a 911 GT3 (assuming the values of used 997 GT3's don't exceed the value of 991 GT3's).
All other reasons that are commonly mentioned by the so called "purists" are soft and not as relevant for most drivers/enthusiasts.
991 GT3 electric power steering?......sure the hydraulic system had better feel, but for virtually any application (street driving, mountain/canyon road driving, track driving, drifting), it's a non-issue. The 991 GT3 has very accurate steering and you CAN tell when then front tires are losing grip when pushing the car into understeer.
The 991 GT3 has too many electronics/computers driving itself?........stability and traction control can be completely disabled if you want. The PDK-S in manual mode gives you complete control over gear selection, allowing you to bounce off the rev limiter if you want without the transmission upshifting on its own. Rear wheel steering: a mechanical method to increase cornering agility/stability when the driver turns the steering wheel. E-diff (electronically controlled mechanical limited slip differential): acts just like a conventional limited slip differential except that it is more flexible in terms of having variable lock-up ability and even completely open differential to have the best of both worlds. Torque vectoring: yes, this feature actively brakes individual wheels to improve turn-in ability as it generates a natural yaw force when the driver turns the steering wheel........is this "cheating"??......a grey area.......I would say ABS with the computer actively pumping the brakes completely out of the control of the human is "cheating" even more.
The 991 GT3 has to be driven too fast to enjoy on the road?........irrelevant for most people. Unless you regularly drive way above the speed limit with drifting on city roads, this point is mute. You will have the same problem in a 997 or 996 GT3. Even my 10 year old C55 AMG can't be taken anywhere near it's limits safely on any city road. The track is the only place where most modern performance/sports cars' performance capability can be safely exploited and exceeded if desired.
The 991 GT3 is too easy to drive?........this point puzzles me. Previous 911's had more understeer and more snap oversteer tendencies due to it's rear engine placement. As such, they were harder to drive fast and the limits were lower. Now the 991 GT3 has dialed out understeer and oversteer, and is significantly more capable in terms of cornering speeds and is faster in terms of acceleration too, which means almost all drivers will be able to drive faster as the limits are much higher. What is the problem with that???
In addition to the very high cornering speeds which you can "feel", the 991 GT3's engine revs so fast and loud to its redline that you have to be dead to not feel excited when driving this car.
Which brings me back to my original point. The ONLY "advantages" the 997.2 GT3 has over the 991 GT3 is the increased involvement that comes with driving a stick shift manual transmission, and price. And in my opinion, there is no reason to choose a 996 GT3 over a 997 GT3, unless you really prefer the looks of the 996, and you prefer a much harsher ride with less capability, or if price is the main deciding factor.
08-08-2015, 09:55 AM
#25
Autocar: 996 GT3 vs 997 GT3 vs 991 GT3
I think Porsche has this figured out! I saw some numbers a couple of weeks ago. Nothing about a MT 991gt3! However I believe they have decided to give the MT 991R the green light. According to my little "bird" it will have similar power as the 991gt3 but no aero. Still no news about the 991RS "cup edition"
08-08-2015, 10:07 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
Porsche is marketing the RS nostalgia all over their Selection store. The "911R" will very likely be an RS "homage" with ducktail and stripes. Doubt it will be a GT3 w/o the wing and a MT.
08-08-2015, 10:34 AM
#27
Autocar: 996 GT3 vs 997 GT3 vs 991 GT3
Originally Posted by djcxxx
Porsche is marketing the RS nostalgia all over their Selection store. The "911R" will very likely be an RS "homage" with ducktail and stripes. Doubt it will be a GT3 w/o the wing and a MT.
Haven't seen any pics but like previous poster I can see ducktail and livery and I heard some rumors about limited production.... I know, I know.......
Last edited by 997rs4.0; 08-08-2015 at 11:01 AM.
08-08-2015, 03:33 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
There are a lot of CPO 2013 C2's for sale with a manual.
Around $70k. It cant be that difficult to get the suspension and brakes track ready.
Add stripes and ducktail. Presto 911 manual, same engine as a GT4 but its no Cayman.
Around $70k. It cant be that difficult to get the suspension and brakes track ready.
Add stripes and ducktail. Presto 911 manual, same engine as a GT4 but its no Cayman.
08-08-2015, 06:51 PM
#29
Race Car
08-08-2015, 07:06 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
I've heard from several sources that Porsche will maintain a purist NA 911 positioned in-between the regular 991.2 turbo carreras and the elite 991 GT3/RS line. The 991.2 Turbo carreras will be announced in Sept 2105 and the 991.2 NA 911 (likely called GTS) will be announced in spring 2016.
They will just tweak the current GTS engine to produce 450 HP for the new 911GTS, (I don't see them matching the HP of the current GT3). It will be narrow body, and manual only. The 450hp engine will place the 991.2 GTS above the 991.2 turbo carerra with 420hp, but not threaten the position of the still recent 991 GT3.
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Really this seems to be a continuation of the new Porsche marketing plan across their more sporty car lines. (Boxster/Cayman/911)
All three lines will go turbo very soon and some versions will be PDK only. This for the uneducated masses who just "want a Porsche" while PAG will still manufacture in smaller numbers, a purist drivers car for the Boxster, Cayman, and 911 lines.
Specifically, the Spyder, GT4, and 911 GTS.
Notice that all three cars have three things in common.
1-naturally aspirated
2-manual only
3-come with feature(s) that will turn off the non purist driver/car shopper.
For the Boxster, its the fact that the roof isn't automatic
For the GT4, its the wing, which aesthetically, many people can't appreciate
For the upcoming 991.2 GTS, manual only, or it won't have a 4 wheel drive option, or ducttail will be mandatory, etc
This way, the purist can still buy, drive, and obsess about their pure, naturally aspirated, manual transmission Porsche sports car, while the majority of average car buyers can and will purchase the more convenient turbo, PDK, more normal/bland Boxster/Cayman/911 which lowers the C02 numbers for VW/Porsche, yet the car buyers are happy and PAG continues to make buckets of money by not alienating any of their customers.
They will just tweak the current GTS engine to produce 450 HP for the new 911GTS, (I don't see them matching the HP of the current GT3). It will be narrow body, and manual only. The 450hp engine will place the 991.2 GTS above the 991.2 turbo carerra with 420hp, but not threaten the position of the still recent 991 GT3.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really this seems to be a continuation of the new Porsche marketing plan across their more sporty car lines. (Boxster/Cayman/911)
All three lines will go turbo very soon and some versions will be PDK only. This for the uneducated masses who just "want a Porsche" while PAG will still manufacture in smaller numbers, a purist drivers car for the Boxster, Cayman, and 911 lines.
Specifically, the Spyder, GT4, and 911 GTS.
Notice that all three cars have three things in common.
1-naturally aspirated
2-manual only
3-come with feature(s) that will turn off the non purist driver/car shopper.
For the Boxster, its the fact that the roof isn't automatic
For the GT4, its the wing, which aesthetically, many people can't appreciate
For the upcoming 991.2 GTS, manual only, or it won't have a 4 wheel drive option, or ducttail will be mandatory, etc
This way, the purist can still buy, drive, and obsess about their pure, naturally aspirated, manual transmission Porsche sports car, while the majority of average car buyers can and will purchase the more convenient turbo, PDK, more normal/bland Boxster/Cayman/911 which lowers the C02 numbers for VW/Porsche, yet the car buyers are happy and PAG continues to make buckets of money by not alienating any of their customers.
Last edited by Drifting; 08-08-2015 at 10:38 PM. Reason: .