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The Panamericana was based in the 964 and built for the 1989 IAA and Ferry Porsches 80th Birthday. I don't think the color is Ipanema, the green is darker.
Every guest of FP's birthday party received a 1:43 model of the car on a brass plate with his signature as a present.
Later all employees at Stuttgart also got this model - after this the production tools have been destroyed.
'Winfried Vahland, the 58-year-old chief executive of the auto makers Skoda Auto business and CEO-designate of a new organization that would group its U.S., Canadian and Mexican operations, resigned abruptly. The 25-year Volkswagen veteran couldnt agree with top executives on a plan to overhaul the U.S. business after weeks of intense negotiations, people familiar with the matter said.
Differences of opinion over how to shape the new corporate region led to this decision, Skoda said in a statement, adding that his departure wasnt related to the diesel-emissions scandal weighing on the company and its U.S. business. The company has acknowledged using software to dupe U.S. emissions tests of its diesel-powered cars between 2009 and 2015.
Mr. Vahland also had personal reasons to turn down one of the companys top jobs. He was passed over for CEO of Volkswagen last month. The post went instead to Matthias Müller, who had been head of the companys Porsche sports-car business. After years of senior posts, including substantial foreign travel, Mr. Vahland and his family werent enthusiastic about relocating to the U.S., people close to him said...The loss of Mr. Vahland is a setback for the car maker at a time when several of the companys top executives, including former CEO Martin Winterkorn, have resigned or have been suspended amid the diesel-emissions crisis. His resignation was such a surprise that there is no current alternative, people close to the company said...'
I am trying to make sense of 'dieselgate' and how it might be connected to the sudden 'resignation' of Ferdinand Piëch from the VW Supervisory Board back in April! I started the thread below on this forum...but it was recently moved by the moderators to 'Off-Topic'. Frankly, that was ill-advised. Eventually all of us Porsche enthusiasts & customers will find out how this crisis will change the landscape of PAG, Weissach R & D, Porsche Motorsports & all future Porsche cars as we know them today. So it's not an 'off-topic' at all!
And I think there is a connection between 'Dieselgate' & Ferdinand Piëch's deliberate distancing himself from the VW Group supervisory board last April! And I intend to report & document that connection on that thread!
Winterkorn out at Porsche Automobil Holding SE too!
"Former Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn is stepping down as head of a holding company that technically controls a majority in
the German automaker, weeks after his resignation in the wake of the emissions-rigging scandal. Porsche Automobil Holding SE,
via which the Piech and Porsche families own more than 50 percent of Volkswagen, said in a brief statement Saturday that it
'reached an agreement with Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn that he ceases his function as member and chairman of the executive
board of Porsche SE by the end of Oct. 31.' Winterkorn will be replaced as the holding company's CEO Nov. 1 by Volkswagen's
new supervisory board chairman, Hans Dieter Poetsch.
Winterkorn's departure as head of the holding company was expected after he quit last month as CEO of the automaker, a few
days after news broke of the scandal over software built into diesel engines that disabled emissions controls except when they
were being tested.
Winterkorn resigned as VW CEO on Sept. 23, saying he was acting in the interests of the company 'even though I am not aware
of any wrongdoing on my part.' He was succeeded in that job by former Porsche CEO Matthias Mueller."
Interesting stuff, Eduardo! Thanks for the clarification.
In the context of my long shot scenario of Porsche buying out VW what, if any, are the possible implications
of Porsche Automobil Holding SE buying the VW shares?
Originally Posted by FLAT6KING
Sounds like the family may be trying to buy out VW again by using the sagging share prices and common share
buys (hoarding) to take the majority ownership of the group. This would make shareholders happy but it's a ballsy
play. Which smacked the family in the face last time they tried it.
Keep in mind that The Volkswagen Law', even if now diminished somewhat, still has a powerful effect on how even a
minority position by the State of Lower Saxony can be the king-maker in the affairs of the VW Group.
Here is the Volkswagen Law according to Wikipedia:
The Volkswagen Law is a set of German federal laws enacted in 1960, regulating the privatization of Volkswagenwerk GmbH into Volkswagen AG.[1] In order to maintain government control in the privately owned company, it stipulated that the votings on major shareholder meeting resolutions require 4/5th(80%) agreement.[2] This part of the law was deemed to violate the "free movement of capital" principle of European company law by EU members.[3] After a series of challenges by EU from 2007 to 2013, the German parliament finally amended the part in 2013 to EU court satisfaction.[4]
Contents [show]
Law[edit]
The full title of the law is "Gesetz über die Überführung der Anteilsrechte an der Volkswagenwerk Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung in private Hand", usually abbreviated to "VW-Gesetz". It was enacted on 28 July 1960, when Volkswagenwerk GmbH was privatized. The state
of Lower Saxony held a voting share of 20.2 percent, which gave it the ability to veto major decisions and prevent takeovers by other shareholders, regardless of the extent of the ownership. It also allowed the government of Lower Saxony to appoint two members to Volkswagen's board.
Challenges and the EU court ruling[edit]
In October 2007, the European Court of Justice ruled that the VW law was illegal in EU[5] because it was protectionistic. At that time, Porsche held 30.9% of VW shares and there had been speculation that Porsche would be interested in taking over VW if the law did not stand in its way. The court also prevented the government appointing Volkswagen board members.[6]
In 2008, the German government then rewrote the Volkswagen law, attempting to sidestep the ECJ judgment; removing restrictions on share ownership but still requiring an 80% majority for important decisions, so Lower Saxony would still be able to block major business decisions and takeovers.[7] European regulators took the German government to court again[8][9] and requested a fine of 31,114 per day backdated to when the law was declared illegal in 2007, plus larger ongoing fines from the date of a second court judgment. In March 2012, the German government insisted that it would defend the Volkswagen Law.[10]
In October 2013, the EU Court of Justice in Luxembourg ruled that the redraft of the Volkswagen law complied in full with EU rules, bringing "the matter to a close, as Chantal Hughes, spokeswoman for EU Internal Markets Commissioner Michel Barnier said.[11]
Outcome[edit]
During the above developments, Porsche, who traditionally had close relationships with Volkswagen, increased its holding of Volkswagen AG shares as follows (please see Porsche#EU and the Volkswagen Law for details):
October 2005: 18.53%[12]
Nov. 2006: 27.4%[13]
March 2007: 30.9%[13]
September 2008: 35.79%
January 2009: 50.76%[14]
Porsche had many difficulties financing the large investment, and agreed in August 2009 to sell its automobile manufacturing business to Volkswagen AG,[15] while retaining the majority ownership in Volkswagen. Porsche SE officially became the controlling owner of Volkswagen AG when Volkswagen Law was amended to abolish the 20% owner veto rights in 2013, with 50.76% ownership.[11] Please see the Porsche article for details."
I hope we can go further into this topic on this thread, or my other one re: Ferdinand Piëch on the Off Topic Forum:
But for now let me say that I don't believe that the Porsche/Piëch family holding 'Porsche SE' need to buy any more
than they currently have (presently 52.2%) to maintain its influence on the affairs of the VW Group. Even if they could
buy every other share not presently owned by the State of Lower Saxony, I don't think they could 'control' it any more
than they do now - which is not totally. Remember that in Germany labor has a powerful representation of the board of
any corporation. And in conjunction with the power of Lower Saxony via whatever is left of 'The Volkswagen Law', the
provincial state and labor have an enormous say, indeed disproportionate to their stock ownership, in the affairs of the
VW Group.
Also remember that the Porsche/Piëch families suffered some financial pain when the merger of VW and PAG was done
in 2009. Vast private family wealth controlled by 'Salzburg Holding' in Austria and other world-wide private investments
(e.g. Stoddard in Ohio) were either sold or merged into 'Porsche SE' to allow the family to gain 50.7 % of the combined
VW Group. I don't think that most members of the Porsche/Piëch family currently have that many liquid assets, other than
VW stock, that is the basis for their wealth. And I don't think they have the liquidity to purchase many more VW stock,
regardless how much it has fallen in the past two months. They simply don't have the cash at hand to make that kind
of stock play.
But there might be one exception in the Porsche/Piëch family with deep pockets - Ferdinand Piëch. I think eventually we
will all know what Ferdinand Piëch did with the personal shares of the VW Group he accumulated over the term of his long
employment & service to the VW Group since the 1970's. Remember that last April Piëch concocted a rift with CEO Martin
Winterkorn and, lacking the support of the State of Lower Saxony, the labor unions representatives on the board and even
his own cousin Wolgang Porsche, uncharacteristically gave up & resigned his post as Chairman of the Supervisory Board!
Knowing well how brilliant Piëch had been in all his previous corporate struggles, I found it unbelievable that he so quickly
folded...and left. What was that all about? Why would he start a fight with his CEO if he didn't have the votes ahead of time
to oust him? It all sounded so uncharacteristic from a man that otherwise plotted wisely & carefully all his previous power
moves! One quote from Piëch during his last days has intrigued me from the moment I read it in the fascinating account
reported in 'Spiegel Online' back in the Spring, which I posted on my original thread back in May:
"Do you want my resignation? If you would like that, then I will resign today. But I have to say, if that's the
case I will sell my shares." Ferdinand Piëch as quoted in article found below:
Today, in retrospect, we might be looking at another brilliant move from the most intellectually gifted of all the descendants
of Ferdinand Porsche Sr. If Piëch after his resignation in April was able to sell most, if not all, of his personal VW shares ahead
of the 'Dieselgate' scandal when the stock price was at its yearly 'high', he might be the wealthiest citizen of Germany, far
richer than his cousin Wolfgang that took sides against him & remained on the VW Supervisory Board. And that perhaps
why he was able to drive 'triumphantly' into Wolfsburg recently. Moral of the story, don't ever bet against Ferdinand Piëch:
WOLFSBURG, GermanyOne day after Volkswagen AGs board forced Chief Executive Martin Winterkorn to resign over a massive scandal engulfing
Germanys largest company, former Chairman Ferdinand Piëch drove triumphantly through the main gates of Volkswagens massive plant here in his
bright red Bentley, chauffeured by his wife, Ursula.
The dramatic return of Mr. Piëch, 78-years-old and one of Volkswagens largest shareholders, was a turnaround from his sudden resignation as
chairman of the supervisory board in April. He was forced to step down when representatives of the Prime Minister of the state of Lower Saxony,
which holds 20% of Volkswagens voting stock, and powerful labor representatives on the board blocked Mr. Piëchs attempt to oust Mr. Winterkorn.
Some company insiders saw Mr. Piëchs stylish entrance through Tor Sandkamp, the main entrance to the sprawling headquarters campus and
Volkswagens mile-long factory, as a clear sign that the company patriarch had returned from his Austrian exile and was exerting new influence over
company affairs behind the scenes.
Over the past two weeks, as Volkswagen sank deeper into a morass of criminal investigations, regulatory probes and lawsuits, a shift of power
that gives more influence to Mr. Piëchs family has taken place in the upper echelons of one of the worlds biggest corporations.
That could create tension with Lower Saxony, where Volkswagen is the states largest private sector employer, and with the IG Metall trade union,
which fears a weakening of the states position on the board could make it harder to prevent Volkswagen from cutting jobs in the state.
The wheel is set to turn full circle on Wednesday, when a district court in Braunschweig, just down the road from Volkswagens headquarters, is
expected to appoint Hans Dieter Pötsch chairman of the supervisory board to succeed Mr. Piëch at the request of the company.
The court confirmation follows the appointment on Sept. 25 of another confidant of Mr. Piëch, Porsche Chief Matthias Müller, as Volkswagens CEO.
Messrs. Pötsch and Müller are company veterans with close ties to Mr. Piëch and his cousin Wolfgang Porsche, whose family holding company controls
a majority of Volkswagens voting stock.
The high-level changes strengthen the position of the scions of Beetle designer Ferdinand Porsche and fulfills Mr. Piëchs dream of putting
Volkswagen, which last year posted 202.5 billion in revenue and 12.7 billion in operating profit, firmly under family control.
The Porsche-Piëch family will exert more influence over the company in the future, a person close to the Volkswagen supervisory board said.
The Porsche-Piëch clan can still be outvoted. That is why the family often allies itself with labor boss, Bernd Osterloh. Labor representatives hold
10 of the 20 seats on the supervisory board, making Mr. Osterloh a decisive figure. No one on the labor side will vote against Osterloh, said the
person close to the supervisory board.
Stephan Weil, Prime Minister of Lower Saxony and a member of the supervisory board, could be an ally, but could also become a key antagonist
to the family if he feels the states interests are threatened, analysts said. A Socialist, he made a name for himself by winning a majority in the
state for a coalition with the leftist Greens after a decade in the opposition.
As if to emphasize that point, the family holding company, Porsche Automobil Holding SE, increased its stake in Volkswagen on Sept 26, the day
Mr. Piëch rode triumphantly through the gates in Wolfsburg to attend a meeting of the holdings supervisory board.
Porsche SE purchased 4.4 million shares of VWs voting stock, of 1.5% of VWs ordinary shares, from Suzuki Motor Corp., which sold the shares
after a failed alliance with the German auto maker. The acquisition raised the familys holding to 52.2% of the voting capital, or ordinary shares, and
32.4% of the companys subscribed capital. The family said it considered the acquisition a strong commitment to its core investment and emphasizes
its role as an anchor shareholder in the Wolfsburg-based car maker.
In addition to his role as finance chief of Volkswagen, Mr. Pötsch also serves as the finance chief of Porsche SE. The holding is listed and its shares tend
to track those of Volkswagen. A native Austrian, like Mr. Piëch, people who know the family say that he has a close relationship with Mr. Piëch and Mr.
Porsche.
Porsche SE came to control a majority stake in Volkswagen through an attempt by Mr. Porsche and Mr. Piëch to use car maker Porsche AG to take
over the much larger Volkswagen group. In the end, the family holding acquired a majority in Volkswagen, which took control of the Porsche sports
car maker.
The deal saddled the family with debt leaving them close to insolvency. Mr. Pötsch arranged a 5 billion ($5.59 billion) capital increase that wiped out
the familys debt and made a cash injection into Porsche SE, which the family is now using as an automotive-related venture capital fund.
As CFO, Mr. Pötsch has been instrumental in recent restructurings and in setting profit targets. As chairman, he can be expected to back Mr. Müllers
pledge to shake up Volkswagens insular culture and improve compliance as a response to the emissions crisis, analysts said.
Though not yet officially appointed as chairman, Mr. Pötsch joined Mr. Müller on Sept. 28 to address a crowded gathering of nearly 1,000 top Volkswagen
managers in the auditorium of the companys management training center, the Auto University.
According to a person present at that meeting, Mr. Pötsch said the emissions cheating scandal had plunged the company into a crisis that threatens the
existence of the company, adding that he was confident Volkswagen would survive the worst crisis in its 78 year history.
This is also about our culture, said Mr. Müller at the gathering. For me, the new corporate structure is the first step and a basis for modernizing
'Directors Say Volkswagen Delayed Informing Them of Trickery' Article from the NYT dated Oct 23rd:
"At least three members of Volkswagen’s board said they were left in the dark about the company’s emissions cheating for two weeks after top executives admitted the deception to American environmental officials...If Mr. Winterkorn did not know about the communication with the American regulators, he was unaware of a fundamental threat to the company. If he was aware, he withheld significant information from members of his 20-member supervisory board...It was a 'grave mistake' for Volkswagen executives to withhold information as long as they did, Mr. Weil said on Friday in a statement. He noted that American regulators had raised red flags about Volkswagen emissions in 2014. 'Talks took place for a full year before Volkswagen admitted the deception,' Mr. Weil said. 'This confession should clearly have occurred much earlier'...Some outsiders expressed surprise that Mr. Winterkorn, known for his attention to detail, would have been unaware that E.P.A. officials had been asking for more than a year why Volkswagen diesel cars had far lower emissions in laboratory tests than on the road. 'I find it very improbable,' said Ferdinand Dudenhöffer, a professor at the University of Duisburg-Essen who follows Volkswagen closely. 'He was always the one who wanted to know everything'.
Volkswagen initially contested findings by independent researchers and the E.P.A. in 2014 that showed big discrepancies between the pollutants that its cars generated on the road compared to lab tests. Then, on Aug. 21, 2015, at a conference in Pacific Grove, Calif., organized by the University of California, Davis, a Volkswagen official informally mentioned to a senior E.P.A. official that the company had been deceiving regulators. The revelation surprised the official, Christopher Grundler, who runs the agency’s Office of Transportation and Air Quality. Standing next to him at the time was a regulator with the California Air Resources Board, according to an E.P.A. official who confirmed the events, earlier reported by Reuters. In a Sept. 3 conference call with officials from the E.P.A. and the state of California, company executives detailed how Volkswagen vehicles were programmed to trick emissions-testing equipment. An E.P.A. spokeswoman declined to identify the Volkswagen officials who have been in talks with the agency."
Comment: In the history of modern management I doubt that that there is a similar instance where a corporate 'official' has admitted to government officials that his company was willingly deceiving regulators in this manner without the presence of legal counsel..unless he was a whistleblower. If he is not the latter, he must be the most naive and 'stupid' individual that has ever worked for a corporation in such a capacity and there will be a special 'dark' place in the annals of corporate business history for this 'dumb ***'. In fact this case might require, from now on, any government official that hears such a 'confession' to read to the corporate employee that is babbling away his 'Miranda' rights and alert him/her that they has a right to remain silent & in the presence of legal counsel before he /she continues to 'talk' & make such self-incriminating admissions.
The only sensible solution once VW realized the 'defeat device' deception could no longer be contained, or explained away, was to let their legal department & governmental affairs personnel handle the sensitive negotiations leading to their admission (at last resort) of some sort of 'wrong doing'. And negotiate a 'plea bargain' deal from the 'prosecutors'. The least intelligent and totally reckless behavior was to admit to both the EPA and CARB the 'fraud' in an informal at some 'academic' function involving a California university.
If corporations could be run like a military organization, this VW official would merit the firing squad...for sheer stupidity. Unless he is a disgruntled employee & whistleblower. Inquiring minds want to know more about who this VW official was...
****
'VW suspends key exec in emissions rigging scandal, reports say
Winterkorn said to be in clear over diesel engine cheat' From Article on Automotive News on Oct 25th:
Comment: It's too early in the investigation to 'clear' Winterkorn. You will see what I mean as the investigation continues & grows.
****
'German Minister Heads to U.S. for Talks on Volkswagen Scandal /
Meetings with U.S. counterpart and EPA officials as worries over fallout to economy rise' Artilce in the WSJ dated Oct 23rd
Comment: Another visible & tangible proof that the German Government will not abandon VW to its 'fate' in the hands of US government & other foreign regulators. Angela Merkel's appearance with Matthias Mueller is not without significance. See WSJ article above re: increasing German government involvement in the 'problem' with US authorities!
****
'Financial Times Reports EU was Warned About Vehicle Emissions Rigging in 2013' Article in Industry Week about a FT report dated Oct 25th:
'The European Union's top environmental official warned his colleagues that automakers were rigging European emissions tests in 2013, long before the scam was uncovered last month, the Financial Times reported on Sunday...Top EU regulators were aware of test manipulation two years ago, but allowed regulatory loopholes to remain, according to the FT, which cited an exchange of letters between officials. 'There are widespread concerns that performance has been tailored tightly to compliance with the test cycle in disregard of the dramatic increase in emissions outside that narrow scope,' EU environment commissioner Janez Potocnik wrote to industrial policy commissioner Antonio Tajani in February 2013, according to the newspaper.'
Comment: Other European auto manufacturers making diesel-engined models might have been doing the same thing as VW to 'rig' their diesel emissions too. The task now is how that information will surface in the press and the implications for the other auto manufacturers with regulators here & abroad.
****
Finally, did you ever wondered how rigorous was the testing by the West Virginia University on diesel emissions, who was included in their investigation and the reason why they were chosen? If so, read this little gem of a story:
'Volkswagen emissions scandal was uncovered because boffins couldn't afford posh cars' Article on The Mail dated Oct 19th:
''The Volkswagen emissions scandal was uncovered only because researchers could not afford to test more expensive cars, The Mail on Sunday can reveal. The American engineers who discovered that Volkswagen used a ‘cheat device’ to pass emissions tests said they originally wanted to test Mercedes and BMW vehicles, but the cars were too pricey to rent. Instead, they used a VW Passat and a VW Jetta saloon – without knowing the cars were fitted with the device to help them pass emissions standards. A BMW X5 sport utility vehicle was also used. The testers spent a month driving the three cars around California with specialist monitoring equipment. The results showed the two VW models would pump out as much as 40 times the allowed levels of nitrogen oxide. When this was later corroborated by the US Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board, it sent the German car firm into near meltdown.
Daniel Carder, who led the testing team from the Centre for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions at West Virginia University, said: ‘We didn’t set out to trap Volkswagen – it was just that we could spend less money on using their cars.’ More than 11 million cars are being recalled worldwide, with 1.2 million of those in the UK. VW, which yesterday said it had been forced to drop the Royal Warrant from its communications in the wake of the scandal, has set aside £4.7 billion to deal with the fallout from the scandal, but analysts at Credit Suisse say it could cost it closer to £56 billion. Meanwhile, a survey found that public trust in the car industry has been badly damaged, with nearly eight in 10 people now saying they expect more manufacturers to be drawn in to the scandal'.
Comment: To survive, VW will have to prove that it was not the only one rigging the emissions on its diesel engines. Slowly it's coming out that other diesel car manufacturers were/are suspect...it's just that VW were the cheapest cars the investigators could afford to purchase for testing. That lid has now been blown on 'diesel gate' ...and everybody & everything claimed that is diesel-related will be suspect & tested. And that is what might save VW in the end...and why the German gov't might have to come to the rescue by telling the US & other regulators that the problem is universal to the European (and perhaps the ROW) diesel industry and they (the regulators) can't make VW an scapegoat (nor a sacrificial lamb) because it could destabilize the entire German & European economic (and thus political) system due to the importance of the auto industry to the EU.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Presently in Seattle
Follow this other thread too: "More Information on the Resignation of Ferdinand Piëch from the VW Supervisory Board!"
Meanwhile, Volkswagen is denying that it used cheat software in its 3.0-liter TDI engines.
Volkswagen AG wishes to emphasize that no software has been installed in the 3-liter V6
diesel power units to alter emissions characteristics in a forbidden manner, the automaker
said in a statement released today in response to the EPAs allegations.
It's about damn time that Volkswagen starts defending itself using the tools available to it via
our legal system! Deny, deny, deny and fight it with an army of lawyers until you reach a legal
settlement with the EPA & the California Air Resources Board (CARB). Go back to what I wrote
in an earlier post about the VW official that admitted to the EPA & CARB that they were cheating.
Who in his right mind would do that? Was this the work of a disgruntled employee? Or someone
trying to tank the value of the stock & profit from it?
This VW official in question should be put before a firing squad & shot. If nothing else for terminal
stupidity & wanton disregard for the rules of the game. In the annals of modern business history,
this 'VW Scandal' episode will be one taught at all MBA schools as a case study for the next one
hundred years. And the lessors learned from this case at the Wharton & Harvard Business School
is not how well VW handled this affair, but rather what NOT TO DO if you or your company ever
finds itself in the same tough bind as VW did over 'Dieselgate'!
In the interest of presenting opposing points of view to my own, below is the
exchange I had with User 997s07 yesterday at another thread on the VW scandal:
Originally Posted by Z356
It's about damn time that Volkswagen starts defending itself using the tools available to it via
our legal system! Deny, deny, deny and fight it with an army of lawyers until you reach a legal
settlement with the EPA & the California Air Resources Board (CARB). Go back to what I wrote
in an earlier post about the VW official that admitted to the EPA & CARB that they were cheating.
Who in his right mind would do that? Was this the work of a disgruntled employee? Or someone
trying to tank the value of the stock & profit from it?
This VW official in question should be put before a firing squad & shot. If nothing else for terminal
stupidity & wanton disregard for the rules of the game. In the annals of modern business history,
this 'VW Scandal' episode will be one taught at all MBA schools as a case study for the next one
hundred years. And the lessors learned from this case at the Wharton & Harvard Business School
is not how well VW handled this affair, but rather what NOT TO DO if you or your company ever
finds itself in the same tough bind as VW did over 'Dieselgate'!
Originally Posted by 997s07
Wow. I'm guessing you don't know much about the German culture. This was an ethical decision undertaken by someone who wanted to come clean. Rules of the game? Ever wonder why corporate America has a bad rap? Insisting on punishing someone for being honest and opining that the leadership deny their wrong while simultaneously using the "legal system" to minimize damage (which it won't, it'll just delay it) is not consistent with ethical behavior.
This is what your MBAs are made of? Good luck.
My firm structures very serious deals and it takes me 10 minutes to nix the deal when I even smell unethical leadership.
I grew up in Bavaria, we admit our wrong. We don't deny things and hide behind our attorney's skirt.
Originally Posted by Z356
I don't think it's wise for you to approach this conversation from the point
of view of my (as an American) misunderstanding your ethically superior
German culture. The history of WWII & the evidence presented at the
Nuremberg Trials will make it very difficult for you to prove that premise!
There is no evidence that the VW official that informally admitted to the
EPA & CARB that VW had a cheater device in their diesels was doing so
because VW, as a corporation, wanted to 'come clean'. No competent
manager or legal officer of VW would have ever approved such a move
under those circumstances & in that informal setting, especially without
the presence of VW's lawyers at the event. It was totally unprofessional
& reckless for him or her to have done so in the manner it was reported.
And we will find out, in due time, who this individual was and what were
his motives for doing so! Suffice to say that neither VW nor the EPA has
yet revealed the identity of this VW official, but it will be a factor in due
time.
A corporation, and especially one the size of VW, is not a Boy Scout group.
It's an organization that has solemn responsibilities to its employees &
shareholders, as well as to its customers. And what this naive individual
did, probably without the approval of his superiors at VW, was jeopardize
the welfare & livelihood of each worker and shareholder of his corporation!
And he didn't do his customers any favors either! Ask any affected VW
diesel owner if he or she thinks this guy was a hero!
There are methods for correcting corporate wrongs. And remember that
VW's position today is that top management was totally unaware that these
cheater devices were installed on their diesel engines. So VW is saying that
it was some sort of rogue operation by engineers without the authorization
of top management. But regardless, in the complex world of the modern
business & political environment in which we live today, any decision to
correct a corporate wrong, especially one that it's being claimed was
never approved by top management, has to be very carefully executed
with a battery of good lawyers advising you on the best method to proceed.
It can't be done informally at some Pacific Grove California meeting with
EPA & CARB officials without your legal team in attendance! There is too
much at stake here for such cavalier attitudes & platitudes about 'coming
clean' or your rant about 'Corporate America' having a bad rap. Spare me
your entitled sense of 'Überlegenheit'. Let me ask you again: How old are
you?
And as to the superior ethical values of Germans, even those from Bavaria,
I would rather not go there with you...unless you insist. And if you are so
proud of your 'ethical' legal practice, why don't you please tell us the
name of the law firm you represent so that we have that on the record!
At least we know we will not find anyone wearing skirts there in which
to hide. C'est dommage!
Originally Posted by 997s07
You are 100% correct - if we lived in the 1940s. Unfortunately for your argument we don't. Furthermore, when history is cited as a means to diminish a current event argument, it not only blemishes the topic, but more so the citing party. I do remember, from history of course, a certain Caribbean country denying a ship of WWII refugees - perhaps the ethical standards don't apply to certain "ethnicities" whether they are a native of that country or not
Couldn't be bothered to read the rest of your argument.
Originally Posted by Z356
Too bad, counselor, because it might teach you a thing, or two,
that you don't about the VW case & might perhaps dampen that
smarmy superior attitude you like to project!
Here are some very interesting observations by someone I know & trust:
A) On my other thread "More Information on the Resignation of Ferdinand Piëch from the VW Supervisory Board!", Mike posted the following:
Re:
***
Originally Posted by W8MM
So, so true. It's entirely possible that many, if not all, manufacturers employ calibrations that work well on the Federal Test Procedure and above the power required to "climb the test course hills" they change to much less enviro-friendly settings.
I made emission control add-on boxes for the mid-80s "grey market" imports to pass EPA regulations fitted to cars that were non-conforming EU types. My controllers ("Valentine boxes") were some of the most EPA-successful devices ever retro-fitted to non-conforming cars. One of the standard features of my controllers was the complete return to factory-calibrated fuel delivery once the power required was in excess of the FTP "hill load". Very powerful cars needed less control span because so little of their power curve was required to climb the dyno "hills". Wheezer cars required almost all of their power range to be under O2-sensor control because they were so weak while dyno "hill climbing". Ferraris and such required only the bottom end of their power band to be under control since that little bit was all that was required to "climb the hill".
Major manufacturers have very likely done similar things for decades.
Whomever spilled the beans was naive and/or stupid beyond belief to let CARB etc. focus on VW by itself with such an ill considered tidbit of info.
B) And he added the following today at another thread on the VW scandal topic:
Originally Posted by W8MM
This scandal is now 99% political and quickly going into uncharted, murky waters. It started with the discovery of a defined "defeat device" which was forbidden by rule. The admission by VW that it had, indeed, employed a "defeat device" on one of its diesel engine models has given license to the EPA and its assorted enablers, cheer leaders , and fellow travelers to take any shred of new allegations and make hay while the sun shines to pile-on the adverse PR for VW.
The new allegations can be just that; allegations irrespective of pertinent facts. The ramping up of adverse PR is the object here, not any search for complete understanding. The more shrill and cataclysmic the allegations, the better. Over-doing the negative PR (no matter how unfair to the facts) is a weapon to be used to make VW bow down from the sheer weight of it all.
VW, Porsche & Audi deny employing any device prohibited by rule in the V6 3.0 TDi engines. Who should we believe?
As I posted before, it is common to have different emission control strategies depending on how much power is required to "climb the dyno hill" of a Federal Test Procedure. The test procedures are pre-defined so that manufacturers can make sure their engineering development isn't wasted on "surprise" standards. Once the test procedure is locked down, it's pretty easy to make sure the engine is in tight control over the range of conditions the procedure demands. The test procedures typically don't run the vehicles through times of wide-open throttle unless the engine is very weak and the vehicle is very heavy.
If the 3.0 TDi engine had excess power available and was not required to show this extra power during the test, any subsequent 3rd-party testing that showed non-FTP-induced excess emissions is just a publicity stunt -- not a discovery of malfeasance.
Or, if VW inadvertently neglected to inform EPA about some new or unusual feature of their control regimen, it doesn't mean there were any prohibited devices employed.
Since this event is fully politicized, it would be premature to assign ethical judgements until all the action has subsided and we have had lots of time to reflect.
09-10-2015, 03:24 PM
