My Track Impressions 991 GT3
05-16-2015, 08:07 AM
#31
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Was considering a 991gt3 after driving it I'm back to a 997... Don't get me wrong, wonderful machine, but felt too big, steering felt too numb, overall car felt less of an extension of the body... Shifting was superb, so was the build quality... Just a bit too large and synthesized for my taste...
05-16-2015, 09:01 AM
#32
Three Wheelin'
The 991 GT3 looks large and feels long compared to my 2007 GT3 but there are 2 slow hairpin corners at the RIDGE 30-40 mph that the RWS really thrives in making the car "feel" smaller. Today will be my 4th track day there. Should by dry and low 60s.
05-16-2015, 11:15 AM
#33
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--Car doesn't FEEL as fast as I thought it would, but it is fast, because I know I'm carrying more pace into the braking zones
--pdks is sweet, so fast, the auto shift is amazing, always in the right gear. the car let me do things I can't do in mine due to shifting upsetting balance of car
--The steering tactile feel is not as good as the 997. it feels artificially heavy, with very little feel and feedback.
--The stock brakes/fluid are OK, but they would be the first thing I'd change. need more bite at top of pedal, felt I had to get too far into pedal to get it to stop.
--Not sure I like the new sport buckets. they are OK, but I'd prefer recaros
--the car feels BIG and WIDE. My 997 feels like well tailored suit, fits just right, feels small, agile (keep in mind, it's wide too), the 991 feels just "big"
--While the steering feel is not great, the car goes exactly where you want. The new damping is amazing. It will jump berms as well as my Ohlins setup. The back end is STUCK. So planted and stable. The front turns exactly where you want it. Might benefit from slightly higher spring rates all around.
--The Cup2 tires are really good
--Didn't find the stability control invasive at all.
--I prefer the noise of my 997
Would I get rid of my 997 for one? No, but I would add one to the garage. Need. More. Space.
--pdks is sweet, so fast, the auto shift is amazing, always in the right gear. the car let me do things I can't do in mine due to shifting upsetting balance of car
--The steering tactile feel is not as good as the 997. it feels artificially heavy, with very little feel and feedback.
--The stock brakes/fluid are OK, but they would be the first thing I'd change. need more bite at top of pedal, felt I had to get too far into pedal to get it to stop.
--Not sure I like the new sport buckets. they are OK, but I'd prefer recaros
--the car feels BIG and WIDE. My 997 feels like well tailored suit, fits just right, feels small, agile (keep in mind, it's wide too), the 991 feels just "big"
--While the steering feel is not great, the car goes exactly where you want. The new damping is amazing. It will jump berms as well as my Ohlins setup. The back end is STUCK. So planted and stable. The front turns exactly where you want it. Might benefit from slightly higher spring rates all around.
--The Cup2 tires are really good
--Didn't find the stability control invasive at all.
--I prefer the noise of my 997
Would I get rid of my 997 for one? No, but I would add one to the garage. Need. More. Space.
- PDK auto sometimes downshifts later than I'd like, otherwise auto is good.
- Agree that the steering is numb compared to the 997. As you drive the car more, it becomes less of an issue, to the point where you may not even notice any more, but there's no denying the steering is a step backwards.
- I wasn't happy with my brake pedal travel and feel using PFC 11 pads and OEM fluid, but it's much better after flushing with SRF. Much less pedal travel, harder pedal, better modulation, and I can brake later now.
- I think the sport buckets are just 'OK' also.
- I agree that the 997 feels more snug and compact. The bigger feel of the 991 is probably due to the longer wheelbase, and the RWS effectively making the wheelbase even longer at higher speeds. But this is another thing you get used to as you drive the car more, to the point where you no longer notice it.
- I suspect that the PTV+ is a key part of the reason for the back of the car feeling so planted and controllable.
- With both windows down, I find the car too quiet at speeds well over 100. Thinking about side muffler delete.
- Agree that the steering is numb compared to the 997. As you drive the car more, it becomes less of an issue, to the point where you may not even notice any more, but there's no denying the steering is a step backwards.
- I wasn't happy with my brake pedal travel and feel using PFC 11 pads and OEM fluid, but it's much better after flushing with SRF. Much less pedal travel, harder pedal, better modulation, and I can brake later now.
- I think the sport buckets are just 'OK' also.
- I agree that the 997 feels more snug and compact. The bigger feel of the 991 is probably due to the longer wheelbase, and the RWS effectively making the wheelbase even longer at higher speeds. But this is another thing you get used to as you drive the car more, to the point where you no longer notice it.
- I suspect that the PTV+ is a key part of the reason for the back of the car feeling so planted and controllable.
- With both windows down, I find the car too quiet at speeds well over 100. Thinking about side muffler delete.
FWIW, I find the car to feel a bit 'floaty' at times, perhaps due to the relatively low spring rates and trying to compensate for that by rapidly adjusting damping in real time. Doesn't feel like a track-only suspension, and it takes some getting used to, but once that happens I find that it's not too hard to keep the car feeling reasonably settled.
Sadly, they've Americanized the sport buckets. No stock seat will ever compare to CGT seats for real driving. Only way to get that level of fit these days is aftermarket.
05-16-2015, 06:52 PM
#34
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991 GT3 steering is weird, but I'd say calling it numb is incorrect. It's very communicative. But it communicated only signal, and not the noise. What I mean by this. Someone who drives 997.2, particularly with stiff track tires and some other mods is used to feeling front wheels rolling over a penny on the road. But then he/she gets in a 991 GT3, and that vibration from undulations is significantly reduced. There is also less engine/drivetrain vibration on the steering wheel. That immediately creates the feeling that the wheel is disconnected or over-dampened.
But that judgment is not based on the most relevant criteria. Vibration in the steering wheel is associated with performance steering set up in our brains, but it only reduces the actual performance my masking "the signal" - communication on the level of traction front wheels have. And that the 991 GT3 steering communicates very clearly and precisely. It's so easy to feel how wheel gets lighter in understeer or oversteer situations or loads up when front wheels catch again. I spent 20 minutes with a 991 gt3 on a wet polished concrete skidpad at porsche center yesterday. It was so slippery, it was impossible to go over 15-20 mph, but it was so easy to feel front end would lose even that little grip it had.
So my point is, the steering is not numb - it communicates what driver needs to know brilliantly. But because it's too much of a departure from how a good performance-oriented steering rack feels, it does feel weird to most people. It gets much better once you get used to it.
But that judgment is not based on the most relevant criteria. Vibration in the steering wheel is associated with performance steering set up in our brains, but it only reduces the actual performance my masking "the signal" - communication on the level of traction front wheels have. And that the 991 GT3 steering communicates very clearly and precisely. It's so easy to feel how wheel gets lighter in understeer or oversteer situations or loads up when front wheels catch again. I spent 20 minutes with a 991 gt3 on a wet polished concrete skidpad at porsche center yesterday. It was so slippery, it was impossible to go over 15-20 mph, but it was so easy to feel front end would lose even that little grip it had.
So my point is, the steering is not numb - it communicates what driver needs to know brilliantly. But because it's too much of a departure from how a good performance-oriented steering rack feels, it does feel weird to most people. It gets much better once you get used to it.
05-16-2015, 07:57 PM
#35
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991 GT3 steering is weird, but I'd say calling it numb is incorrect. It's very communicative. But it communicated only signal, and not the noise. What I mean by this. Someone who drives 997.2, particularly with stiff track tires and some other mods is used to feeling front wheels rolling over a penny on the road. But then he/she gets in a 991 GT3, and that vibration from undulations is significantly reduced. There is also less engine/drivetrain vibration on the steering wheel. That immediately creates the feeling that the wheel is disconnected or over-dampened.
But that judgment is not based on the most relevant criteria. Vibration in the steering wheel is associated with performance steering set up in our brains, but it only reduces the actual performance my masking "the signal" - communication on the level of traction front wheels have. And that the 991 GT3 steering communicates very clearly and precisely. It's so easy to feel how wheel gets lighter in understeer or oversteer situations or loads up when front wheels catch again. I spent 20 minutes with a 991 gt3 on a wet polished concrete skidpad at porsche center yesterday. It was so slippery, it was impossible to go over 15-20 mph, but it was so easy to feel front end would lose even that little grip it had.
So my point is, the steering is not numb - it communicates what driver needs to know brilliantly. But because it's too much of a departure from how a good performance-oriented steering rack feels, it does feel weird to most people. It gets much better once you get used to it.
But that judgment is not based on the most relevant criteria. Vibration in the steering wheel is associated with performance steering set up in our brains, but it only reduces the actual performance my masking "the signal" - communication on the level of traction front wheels have. And that the 991 GT3 steering communicates very clearly and precisely. It's so easy to feel how wheel gets lighter in understeer or oversteer situations or loads up when front wheels catch again. I spent 20 minutes with a 991 gt3 on a wet polished concrete skidpad at porsche center yesterday. It was so slippery, it was impossible to go over 15-20 mph, but it was so easy to feel front end would lose even that little grip it had.
So my point is, the steering is not numb - it communicates what driver needs to know brilliantly. But because it's too much of a departure from how a good performance-oriented steering rack feels, it does feel weird to most people. It gets much better once you get used to it.
And it sure seems that the reason for moving to electromechanical steering in the 991 was fuel savings, not better performance, and the GT3 got basically the same steering system as the other 991s for cost reasons.
All of this said, I don't dislike the steering in the 991 GT3 - it's excellent in many respects - I'd just rather have a hydraulic system instead.
05-16-2015, 08:20 PM
#36
you know it's funny I think the 997 feels numb compared to a 964, if I want more feel from the car I wouldn't drive a 997 or even a 996, I'd go to a 964 manual, bore it out better suspension and wind it up. Now That car has feel......
05-16-2015, 09:24 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
991 GT3 steering is weird, but I'd say calling it numb is incorrect. It's very communicative. But it communicated only signal, and not the noise. What I mean by this. Someone who drives 997.2, particularly with stiff track tires and some other mods is used to feeling front wheels rolling over a penny on the road. But then he/she gets in a 991 GT3, and that vibration from undulations is significantly reduced. There is also less engine/drivetrain vibration on the steering wheel. That immediately creates the feeling that the wheel is disconnected or over-dampened.
But that judgment is not based on the most relevant criteria. Vibration in the steering wheel is associated with performance steering set up in our brains, but it only reduces the actual performance my masking "the signal" - communication on the level of traction front wheels have. And that the 991 GT3 steering communicates very clearly and precisely. It's so easy to feel how wheel gets lighter in understeer or oversteer situations or loads up when front wheels catch again. I spent 20 minutes with a 991 gt3 on a wet polished concrete skidpad at porsche center yesterday. It was so slippery, it was impossible to go over 15-20 mph, but it was so easy to feel front end would lose even that little grip it had.
So my point is, the steering is not numb - it communicates what driver needs to know brilliantly. But because it's too much of a departure from how a good performance-oriented steering rack feels, it does feel weird to most people. It gets much better once you get used to it.
But that judgment is not based on the most relevant criteria. Vibration in the steering wheel is associated with performance steering set up in our brains, but it only reduces the actual performance my masking "the signal" - communication on the level of traction front wheels have. And that the 991 GT3 steering communicates very clearly and precisely. It's so easy to feel how wheel gets lighter in understeer or oversteer situations or loads up when front wheels catch again. I spent 20 minutes with a 991 gt3 on a wet polished concrete skidpad at porsche center yesterday. It was so slippery, it was impossible to go over 15-20 mph, but it was so easy to feel front end would lose even that little grip it had.
So my point is, the steering is not numb - it communicates what driver needs to know brilliantly. But because it's too much of a departure from how a good performance-oriented steering rack feels, it does feel weird to most people. It gets much better once you get used to it.
For driving enjoyment though, the more feel the better. As a pure tool for speed, the electric steering probably isn't slowing the GT3 down.
05-16-2015, 10:05 PM
#38
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Your point is well taken, and you may be right that it's more about the steering feeling different, but so far I still think that the steering is failing to transmit some useful signal, rather than just filtering out noise.
And it sure seems that the reason for moving to electromechanical steering in the 991 was fuel savings, not better performance, and the GT3 got basically the same steering system as the other 991s for cost reasons.
All of this said, I don't dislike the steering in the 991 GT3 - it's excellent in many respects - I'd just rather have a hydraulic system instead.
And it sure seems that the reason for moving to electromechanical steering in the 991 was fuel savings, not better performance, and the GT3 got basically the same steering system as the other 991s for cost reasons.
All of this said, I don't dislike the steering in the 991 GT3 - it's excellent in many respects - I'd just rather have a hydraulic system instead.
05-17-2015, 12:39 PM
#39
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Few things better than a 964 with a manual steering rack when it comes to steering feel... (see avatar)
05-17-2015, 10:39 PM
#42
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My Alfa 4C had no power steering. I hated the way the weight of the steering would change on fast (light) and slow (heavy) corners on the track. I do prefer the 997 steering feel but the 991 GT3 isn't as bad as you guys think it is.
05-18-2015, 09:37 AM
#43
This is my next project car - been trying to find the right G50 964 for the last couple of months...
05-18-2015, 10:01 AM
#44
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I just put OEM CUP 1 wheels on with new high performance Continental tires so even nicer to drive on the road and they double as my rain set.
With AC it drives nice and quiet at 100+MPH on the road, with windows down on sub 80F days there is zero buffeting!
Mechanically the car is awesome, interior is like new RSA, only missing 2 sunvisors (Custom bolt in cage) + OMP Halo's + Fire system + window net and kill switch.
Both seats slide, power windows work, wipers and turn signals all work..
On the track the car is now heavier but with the mods, it still drives beautiful.
Its still only 265HP to the wheels, but slightly lower R&P and longer 1st and 2nd gear seem perfect for Sebring.
I could make it a 3.8 or 4.0 but the car seems powered just right for street and track. Its 10 seconds slower than a 997 4.0 (2:17 VS 2:27) on the same tires, it drives the same, same shift points, same brake points, does the same thing in corners, so what's less lap time going to do?
Mine is cheated up pretty good, even though its now 2900lbs + me is 3150++
Larger master Cyl, fuel cell, RSR spec struts, 700/900lb springs, Sachs GT clutch, LSD, steel synchronizers, RSR trans and engine mounts, camber plates, RS sway bars and solid bushings, 993Turbo brakes F and 964RS rear, 2 oil coolers. Splitter and 3.8RS wing for downforce are really needed!
I took off the 6 to 1 exhaust but left the B&B headers to spare the neighbors (Originally changed for Laguna Seca and it passed) Sounds just right for me. With the 6-1 pipe it sounds evil.
Selling the race doors, lexan windows etc. I got my perfect HotRod.
I don't know the GT4 would be a better car. Just cheaper maybe LOL