PSC2 vs Trofeo R speed difference
02-01-2015, 01:15 PM
#32
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Sam, times are getting down there. I recall Pat Long doing 12's or 13's in 997 Cup last time I was there. Time for you to stop fooling around and get a Cup
02-01-2015, 01:24 PM
#33
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No worries. Actually I think the second set of tyres will see a more balanced use between track/fast road and touring/DD. The original set (still on the car) had to deal with two break ins and a 2000+ml ED of Europe. Ill be planning my future trips to NZ to mostly correspond with pre booked tracked days so I expect by mid year the balance will re address itself and I may have to watch the wear more. Of interest, our local track wears the outside tires FAR quicker than the inside (most find outside wear 35% quicker). So that may become an additional factor too.
02-01-2015, 03:32 PM
#34
Drifting
Thread Starter
^Sam- not sure that you caught my comments regarding temperature. From what others have posted, I think you have been in fairly cool <60 temps at the track. This is ideal for the Trofeo's and as I said in comparison to even Hoosiers they are fantastic. At 90 not so much and they don't have as much of an advantage. Just a fair warning as the summer tracking season come out, another investment in Trofeo's may not play out as satisfying. Your mileage may vary, but thought I would give another fair warning.
Sam yet again thanks for the data points. Really valuable stuff.
Ive been playing with the MPSC2 pressures at the track having made plenty of mistakes so far like letting them down too low too early on a cold day that got wetter and wetter! What I have learnt with the mpsc2 tyres is they enjoy more pressure than the R comps Im using on the 993 (Hankook Z221). I believe for our tracks at recent ambient temps (28C/85F) and track temps afternoon (45C/115F) that the MPSC2 work better with hot pressures up around 32/36. Of course Im not running the negative camber you are as I only have -2.15F and -1.54R (no shims - maximum factory adjustment without affecting castor). I have found for the fronts that anywhere between 30-32 works great (medium sway bar) and the rears work well (medium sway bar) around 34-36. This may of course been down to surface type and conditions. Our tracks also have alot of elevation and camber changes. I found a noticeable difference in performance below 30 for the front (have tried 26-28) and over 34-36 rear (ran the car up to 42 in one session and got very greesy).
On the MPSC2 vs Sport Maxx I can confirm that he PAG 991 GT3 published Ring Time was on Michelin MPSC2. I have no data for the Sport Maxx as few cars done decent track miles in Europe or USA have had this fitment from factory yet.
The Trofeo R comes in the correct sizes and is a wonderful alternative. I think it definitely has the edge on track. In our group we have a 997.2 GT3 has recently moved to these and believes they are the quickest tyres hes used to date - but he had a major off (no damage this time) using them in the wet and swears that hell not use them in the wet pushing hard. Wear wise I think they are good but they will unlikely be as amazing as the MPSC2 which dont want to seem to die!
Keep the feedback coming Sam. Its good to be able to learn from others who are getting much more track time in than me (Im travelling for 3 months this summer currently in Oaxaca Mexico about to head to Puerto Escondido for a month..)
Ive been playing with the MPSC2 pressures at the track having made plenty of mistakes so far like letting them down too low too early on a cold day that got wetter and wetter! What I have learnt with the mpsc2 tyres is they enjoy more pressure than the R comps Im using on the 993 (Hankook Z221). I believe for our tracks at recent ambient temps (28C/85F) and track temps afternoon (45C/115F) that the MPSC2 work better with hot pressures up around 32/36. Of course Im not running the negative camber you are as I only have -2.15F and -1.54R (no shims - maximum factory adjustment without affecting castor). I have found for the fronts that anywhere between 30-32 works great (medium sway bar) and the rears work well (medium sway bar) around 34-36. This may of course been down to surface type and conditions. Our tracks also have alot of elevation and camber changes. I found a noticeable difference in performance below 30 for the front (have tried 26-28) and over 34-36 rear (ran the car up to 42 in one session and got very greesy).
On the MPSC2 vs Sport Maxx I can confirm that he PAG 991 GT3 published Ring Time was on Michelin MPSC2. I have no data for the Sport Maxx as few cars done decent track miles in Europe or USA have had this fitment from factory yet.
The Trofeo R comes in the correct sizes and is a wonderful alternative. I think it definitely has the edge on track. In our group we have a 997.2 GT3 has recently moved to these and believes they are the quickest tyres hes used to date - but he had a major off (no damage this time) using them in the wet and swears that hell not use them in the wet pushing hard. Wear wise I think they are good but they will unlikely be as amazing as the MPSC2 which dont want to seem to die!
Keep the feedback coming Sam. Its good to be able to learn from others who are getting much more track time in than me (Im travelling for 3 months this summer currently in Oaxaca Mexico about to head to Puerto Escondido for a month..)
Thanks for the useful info on the Trofeo R, Sam. I'm tempted to give them a try.
I don't understand why so many of the comments on this thread are focused on tread wear. In my experience with two sets of MMPSC2s on the track, they heat cycled out after 6-8 days. Still had plenty of tread, but traction was shot. I can't help but believe that the Trofeo R will also be heat cycle limited, not tread wear limited.
The above is related to track use, maybe not DD use.
I don't understand why so many of the comments on this thread are focused on tread wear. In my experience with two sets of MMPSC2s on the track, they heat cycled out after 6-8 days. Still had plenty of tread, but traction was shot. I can't help but believe that the Trofeo R will also be heat cycle limited, not tread wear limited.
The above is related to track use, maybe not DD use.
Yup, didn't take long for 997 GT3 folks to figure out Trofeos were the fastest street tire. Wear wasn't that great when they first came out but R's are a little better.
Sam, times are getting down there. I recall Pat Long doing 12's or 13's in 997 Cup last time I was there. Time for you to stop fooling around and get a Cup
Sam, times are getting down there. I recall Pat Long doing 12's or 13's in 997 Cup last time I was there. Time for you to stop fooling around and get a Cup
02-01-2015, 06:48 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Sam, it's interesting how low of a hot tire pressure they run. How much psi did you gain from cold to hot? Does it take long for them to warm up?
What is the best place to get Trofeo R from ? Doesn't look like Tirerack has any
What is the best place to get Trofeo R from ? Doesn't look like Tirerack has any
02-01-2015, 07:28 PM
#36
Drifting
Thread Starter
Because it has been cold, it will take a few miles to get them up to temp. I try to brake very hard in straight lines to get them to temp and am gentle (unless someone is threatening to pass me) in turns until I build up some pressure.
Bob Woodman is where most people get them:
http://www.bobwoodmantires.com/p-zero-trofeo/
02-01-2015, 10:06 PM
#37
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Thanks for the useful info on the Trofeo R, Sam. I'm tempted to give them a try.
I don't understand why so many of the comments on this thread are focused on tread wear. In my experience with two sets of MMPSC2s on the track, they heat cycled out after 6-8 days. Still had plenty of tread, but traction was shot. I can't help but believe that the Trofeo R will also be heat cycle limited, not tread wear limited.
The above is related to track use, maybe not DD use.
I don't understand why so many of the comments on this thread are focused on tread wear. In my experience with two sets of MMPSC2s on the track, they heat cycled out after 6-8 days. Still had plenty of tread, but traction was shot. I can't help but believe that the Trofeo R will also be heat cycle limited, not tread wear limited.
The above is related to track use, maybe not DD use.
. For me it's 8 days on MPSC2, and I'm generally easy on tires (and usually miss the first run of the day, so my days are shorter). So if people are getting 7+ days our of Pirellis, they may be the better option.
02-02-2015, 02:37 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
When the tires are completely cold (ambient temp cold) I gain 10 PSI, almost always, and regardless of ambient temps. Unlike what you are supposed to do, I go out 10 PSI lower than target temp!! So if I'm shooting for 28/29, I go out at 18/19. Not recommended but I am impatient.
Because it has been cold, it will take a few miles to get them up to temp. I try to brake very hard in straight lines to get them to temp and am gentle (unless someone is threatening to pass me) in turns until I build up some pressure.
Bob Woodman is where most people get them:
http://www.bobwoodmantires.com/p-zero-trofeo/
Because it has been cold, it will take a few miles to get them up to temp. I try to brake very hard in straight lines to get them to temp and am gentle (unless someone is threatening to pass me) in turns until I build up some pressure.
Bob Woodman is where most people get them:
http://www.bobwoodmantires.com/p-zero-trofeo/
Just a bit concerned of rolling a 3k+ lbs car on 18-19psi and if it might have an effect on longevity of the tire (premature tire separation)?
02-02-2015, 07:07 AM
#40
Drifting
Thread Starter
Ok good to know! Pirelli advises to drop only .4bar (~ 6psi) of desired operating temperature and re-check after 3-4 laps. However they don't advise on optimal operating temps
Just a bit concerned of rolling a 3k+ lbs car on 18-19psi and if it might have an effect on longevity of the tire (premature tire separation)?
Just a bit concerned of rolling a 3k+ lbs car on 18-19psi and if it might have an effect on longevity of the tire (premature tire separation)?
02-02-2015, 04:36 PM
#41
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I agree with Sam. The Trofeo R are amazing tires. I found at Cota this weekend they were pretty good in the rain as compared to the old sport cups. I have never tried the new sport cups. I also agree with the oversteer characteristics and increased grip. I can feel the rear wheel steering way more as well with the trofeos. My experience is with a 991 TTS, stock alignment, no mods. My time of 2:26.8 this weekend was decent but the car is too heavy and not as nimble as I like. It felt like I was stopping at every corner to turn because it would plough thru the turn of the speed was too high and I tried to trail brake. I also did a weekend with it at barber with a time of 1:38.x in December. The Trofeo R tires have 4 hard track days, and a round trip from Dallas, TX to Birmingham, AL on them and wear is great (more on shoulders due to stock alignment). I bet I could get at least 2 more weekends out of them which is way better than my Hoosiers on my RS. I'm looking forward to my 991 GT3 to see if I can run faster than the TTS. I can't stand the softness of the TTS on the track, but it is a phenomenal DD that I can occasionally track and get decent times. It also allows me to listen to the Burmester on track when it's raining and I'm just cruising...lol. My incoming GT3 will have Dunlops so I can give a comparison on those later. Good seeing you on Saturday Sam!
05-13-2015, 11:30 AM
#44
Thanks Sam, great thread. Great find/post on Harris' comparative Trofeo track test. Now, if I could just figure out Pirelli size 19" vs. 20" alternative 
selections without loosing any more ground clearance.
From the Miata Tire Size Calculator at http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html:
Tire Size Comparison
Specification Sidewall Radius Diameter Circumference Revs/Mile Difference
305/30-20 3.6in 13.6in 27.2in 85.5in 741 0.0%
305/30-19 3.6in 13.1in 26.2in 82.3in 770 -3.7%
305/35-19 4.2in 13.7in 27.4in 86.1in 736 0.7%
315/30-19 3.7in 13.2in 26.4in 83.1in 763 -2.8%
325/30-19 3.8in 13.3in 26.7in 83.8in 756 -1.9%
selections without loosing any more ground clearance. From the Miata Tire Size Calculator at http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html:
Tire Size Comparison
Specification Sidewall Radius Diameter Circumference Revs/Mile Difference
305/30-20 3.6in 13.6in 27.2in 85.5in 741 0.0%
305/30-19 3.6in 13.1in 26.2in 82.3in 770 -3.7%
305/35-19 4.2in 13.7in 27.4in 86.1in 736 0.7%
315/30-19 3.7in 13.2in 26.4in 83.1in 763 -2.8%
325/30-19 3.8in 13.3in 26.7in 83.8in 756 -1.9%
