6 Pt vs. 4 Pt for LWB Dilemma
01-29-2015, 11:56 PM
#31
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I know this is a long shot [very long shot], but has anyone tried contacting PAG and asking them how to go about installing the 6 pt on the passenger side? You know what they say....it never hurts to ask, plus there seems to be a few here on RL that seem to have some contacts there.
01-29-2015, 11:58 PM
#32
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Thread Starter
01-29-2015, 11:59 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
SFI has various tests for various things. I saw SFI 16.1 cited for one of the 4-pt belts. Take a look and see if you think SFI 16.1 certification provides good evidence that a 4-pt will be effective in a crash:
http://www.schroth.com/download/sfi161.pdf
And BTW, there are plenty of people who are skeptical of the objectivity of SFI tests, since equipment manufacturers have substantial influence in writing the specs.
http://www.schroth.com/download/sfi161.pdf
And BTW, there are plenty of people who are skeptical of the objectivity of SFI tests, since equipment manufacturers have substantial influence in writing the specs.
01-30-2015, 12:40 AM
#34
Nordschleife Master
01-30-2015, 12:43 AM
#35
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01-30-2015, 10:48 AM
#36
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My dealer got the following response from PAG on the LWB passenger seat:
"It is correct that there is a difference in the P11 (full bucket seat) on the driver’s and passenger’s side. The passenger’s side seat does not have a 5-/6-point seat belt slot because of the passenger occupant detection system which is required in the US.
It should be noted that if someone wishes to fix a 5-/6-point harness then they must also install a roll cage and a plate on the body shell under the seat to anchor the harness. Neither the roll cage nor the anchor plate are provided by Porsche as they are not homologated (approved) for distribution in the US. This is rather inconsequential considering the regulatory requirement stated above, but it is a factor from a production standpoint."
I'm not a happy camper. My response to the my dealer:It should be noted that if someone wishes to fix a 5-/6-point harness then they must also install a roll cage and a plate on the body shell under the seat to anchor the harness. Neither the roll cage nor the anchor plate are provided by Porsche as they are not homologated (approved) for distribution in the US. This is rather inconsequential considering the regulatory requirement stated above, but it is a factor from a production standpoint."
"Please ask them what mods are needed to make the seat work with 6-pt without disabling the passenger occupant detection system, and what’s involved in installing the plate they mention.
Please also ask them to cover the cost of those mods. I think it’s reasonable for a buyer to assume and expect that both will work with 6-pt harnesses given that:
• This is a car with track warranty
• These are the only seats they offer which have slots for shoulder harnesses used on track
• There was no indication in the seat description that the seats won’t work with 6-pt harnesses
• If they could make the driver’s seat work, why not the passenger seat?
• The cost of these seats is almost $5K extra
• The previous GT2 seats worked with 6-pt harnesses without any issues, so it was reasonable for a buyer to expect the same with these seats"
Maybe if we all bitch about it, PAG will step up and do the right thing. Otherwise, I wish I'd gotten the regular seats and saved almost $5K, which I could have swapped out for nice track seats at much less cost. Please also ask them to cover the cost of those mods. I think it’s reasonable for a buyer to assume and expect that both will work with 6-pt harnesses given that:
• This is a car with track warranty
• These are the only seats they offer which have slots for shoulder harnesses used on track
• There was no indication in the seat description that the seats won’t work with 6-pt harnesses
• If they could make the driver’s seat work, why not the passenger seat?
• The cost of these seats is almost $5K extra
• The previous GT2 seats worked with 6-pt harnesses without any issues, so it was reasonable for a buyer to expect the same with these seats"
Last edited by Manifold; 01-30-2015 at 11:08 AM.
01-30-2015, 11:23 AM
#38
Given the car needs a driver to be driven, they didn't have to install a sensor on the drivers seat and could deliver the seat pre-cut for a harness.
Take your fight to your elected officials.
I'm very happy Porsche spent the money and time to try to figure something out which is as simple as having a slot cut to maintain full airbag usage.
01-30-2015, 11:31 AM
#39
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The answer here is the US Government and Regulations. The DoT now requires all passenger seats to have automatic airbag sensors. This wasn't a requirement until recently and the reason the GT2 seats didn't have the problem.
Given the car needs a driver to be driven, they didn't have to install a sensor on the drivers seat and could deliver the seat pre-cut for a harness.
Take your fight to your elected officials.
I'm very happy Porsche spent the money and time to try to figure something out which is as simple as having a slot cut to maintain full airbag usage.
Given the car needs a driver to be driven, they didn't have to install a sensor on the drivers seat and could deliver the seat pre-cut for a harness.
Take your fight to your elected officials.
I'm very happy Porsche spent the money and time to try to figure something out which is as simple as having a slot cut to maintain full airbag usage.
And regardless, since the passenger seat doesn't have the slot, I think Porsche needed to say that up front, so that buyers could make informed decisions. I didn't need to pay an extra $5K for these seats just because they look cool.
01-30-2015, 11:41 AM
#40
Interesting article on these problem-plagued occupant detection sensors:
http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/a...ont-make-sense
http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/a...ont-make-sense
01-30-2015, 12:00 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
i would leave seats alone and not cut anything
just track your car with groups other than pca
no one else will give trouble over 4pt vs 6pt for hpde
pca annoys me no end with their track rules so i drive/instruct elsewhere
just track your car with groups other than pca
no one else will give trouble over 4pt vs 6pt for hpde
pca annoys me no end with their track rules so i drive/instruct elsewhere
01-30-2015, 12:51 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
I wish I'd gotten the regular seats and saved almost $5K, which I could have swapped out for nice track seats at much less cost.
Unfortunately for us by not cutting the hole and forcing the owner to do so does distance PAG somewhat from a passenger liability point of view. It can be argued that the driver/owner new what he/she was accepting on track. When it gets to the passenger the complexion changes and gets a bit murky. God forbid if something happens with a passenger in the car and the seat fails for any reason with injury to the passenger. If so you may spend a lot of time and money defending your modification. Also, if the passenger sensor fails I'm sure it will make life miserable for some owners dealing with mod unfriendly dealers.
This will be my 28th year of driving in one form or another on track. At this point I rarely take anyone on track as a passenger.
01-30-2015, 09:27 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
So I spoke to my dealer who also spoke to PAG. I've also been in contact with GMG and RAC regarding this and in the end. I'm ordering 6 points, GMG Bar, and GMG sub strap mounts. The cut out and install will be done by my dealer. I'm sure one of us will get this done before me as my car isn't due till 3/27 so be sure to let me know how it turns out.
02-03-2015, 01:05 PM
#44
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Sorry if I missed it in other threads, but has anyone determined how to modify the passenger seat to accommodate anti-sub belts, without compromising the passenger sensor?
My dealer asked PAG about it, and basically they don't want to touch the issue in any way. Liability appears to the primary consideration. And my dealer doesn't want to get involved in modifying the seat either.
My dealer asked PAG about it, and basically they don't want to touch the issue in any way. Liability appears to the primary consideration. And my dealer doesn't want to get involved in modifying the seat either.
02-03-2015, 01:20 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Sorry if I missed it in other threads, but has anyone determined how to modify the passenger seat to accommodate anti-sub belts, without compromising the passenger sensor?
My dealer asked PAG about it, and basically they don't want to touch the issue in any way. Liability appears to the primary consideration. And my dealer doesn't want to get involved in modifying the seat either.
My dealer asked PAG about it, and basically they don't want to touch the issue in any way. Liability appears to the primary consideration. And my dealer doesn't want to get involved in modifying the seat either.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...ssenger-3.html
looks totally doable.