GT3 values, and Chris Harris speaks marketplace
#91
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#93
I'm not buying a 997 GT3 to replace the C2S. If I get rid of the C2S I'll need to buy another car with back seats and utility.
#94
#95
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Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
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One word from who owns a real 997 GT3 RS
Mr Mezger retired in 1994
First GT3 starts prod in 1999
More than 14000 !!! GT3 produced so far
Just 800 GT3 991 and very few 991 GT3 RS expected
Supply/Demand : 991 GT3 Win
User Experience ; GT3 991 Win
Race Engine real parameter Pistons' Speed : GT3 991 Win
991 GT3 Cup is a Race car linked to 991 GT3 9a1 not to obsolete 997 4.0
Keep your pseudo-lessons for your C2 rear passengers until you can drive for a sufficient time a State of the Art 991 GT3
Before the next Electric/Hybrid Era the 991 GTx will be the best and last Street NA ever produced in Performances and Users Experience and also in few units
Keep your 991 GT3 Well (at least if you have one....)
"Describing a Porsche engine as a "Mezger" engine really started when Porsche invented the 996 3.4 engine and stuck that POS in the 996.
Previous to the 996 3.4 POS engine all Porsche 911s had had "Mezger" engines going back for many years but guess what, Porsche wanted to become the most profitable car manufacturer in the world and replacing an expensive proven engine (~£30+K worth of Mezger) with a brand new 21st century design 996 997 (£~8K worth) and charging the same price did the job and made Porsche mega bucks....."
"they are compared to the cheapo NA lumps but in 1995 the only engine you could have in ANY 911 was what they now described as a "Motorsport" engine..... Porsche marketing - job done "
The only reason Andrea Preuninger Head of GT3 said he kept a so marketing called Mezger engine is that they were just not ready with the current DFI , so if i recall well they involved an external small motor prts factory to assemble the engine on behalf of Porsche while they where busy with th enew 9a1 in GTx sauce...
Ignorance of the Mass people drives the Bubbles....
Mr Mezger retired in 1994
First GT3 starts prod in 1999
More than 14000 !!! GT3 produced so far
Just 800 GT3 991 and very few 991 GT3 RS expected
Supply/Demand : 991 GT3 Win
User Experience ; GT3 991 Win
Race Engine real parameter Pistons' Speed : GT3 991 Win
991 GT3 Cup is a Race car linked to 991 GT3 9a1 not to obsolete 997 4.0
Keep your pseudo-lessons for your C2 rear passengers until you can drive for a sufficient time a State of the Art 991 GT3
Before the next Electric/Hybrid Era the 991 GTx will be the best and last Street NA ever produced in Performances and Users Experience and also in few units
Keep your 991 GT3 Well (at least if you have one....)
"Describing a Porsche engine as a "Mezger" engine really started when Porsche invented the 996 3.4 engine and stuck that POS in the 996.
Previous to the 996 3.4 POS engine all Porsche 911s had had "Mezger" engines going back for many years but guess what, Porsche wanted to become the most profitable car manufacturer in the world and replacing an expensive proven engine (~£30+K worth of Mezger) with a brand new 21st century design 996 997 (£~8K worth) and charging the same price did the job and made Porsche mega bucks....."
"they are compared to the cheapo NA lumps but in 1995 the only engine you could have in ANY 911 was what they now described as a "Motorsport" engine..... Porsche marketing - job done "
The only reason Andrea Preuninger Head of GT3 said he kept a so marketing called Mezger engine is that they were just not ready with the current DFI , so if i recall well they involved an external small motor prts factory to assemble the engine on behalf of Porsche while they where busy with th enew 9a1 in GTx sauce...
Ignorance of the Mass people drives the Bubbles....
#96
Burning Brakes
One word from who owns a real 997 GT3 RS
Mr Mezger retired in 1994
First GT3 starts prod in 1999
More than 14000 !!! GT3 produced so far
Just 800 GT3 991 and very few 991 GT3 RS expected
Supply/Demand : 991 GT3 Win
User Experience ; GT3 991 Win
Race Engine real parameter Pistons' Speed : GT3 991 Win
991 GT3 Cup is a Race car linked to 991 GT3 9a1 not to obsolete 997 4.0
Keep your pseudo-lessons for your C2 rear passengers until you can drive for a sufficient time a State of the Art 991 GT3
Before the next Electric/Hybrid Era the 991 GTx will be the best and last Street NA ever produced in Performances and Users Experience and also in few units
Keep your 991 GT3 Well (at least if you have one....)
"Describing a Porsche engine as a "Mezger" engine really started when Porsche invented the 996 3.4 engine and stuck that POS in the 996.
Previous to the 996 3.4 POS engine all Porsche 911s had had "Mezger" engines going back for many years but guess what, Porsche wanted to become the most profitable car manufacturer in the world and replacing an expensive proven engine (~£30+K worth of Mezger) with a brand new 21st century design 996 997 (£~8K worth) and charging the same price did the job and made Porsche mega bucks....."
"they are compared to the cheapo NA lumps but in 1995 the only engine you could have in ANY 911 was what they now described as a "Motorsport" engine..... Porsche marketing - job done "
The only reason Andrea Preuninger Head of GT3 said he kept a so marketing called Mezger engine is that they were just not ready with the current DFI , so if i recall well they involved an external small motor prts factory to assemble the engine on behalf of Porsche while they where busy with th enew 9a1 in GTx sauce...
Ignorance of the Mass people drives the Bubbles....
Mr Mezger retired in 1994
First GT3 starts prod in 1999
More than 14000 !!! GT3 produced so far
Just 800 GT3 991 and very few 991 GT3 RS expected
Supply/Demand : 991 GT3 Win
User Experience ; GT3 991 Win
Race Engine real parameter Pistons' Speed : GT3 991 Win
991 GT3 Cup is a Race car linked to 991 GT3 9a1 not to obsolete 997 4.0
Keep your pseudo-lessons for your C2 rear passengers until you can drive for a sufficient time a State of the Art 991 GT3
Before the next Electric/Hybrid Era the 991 GTx will be the best and last Street NA ever produced in Performances and Users Experience and also in few units
Keep your 991 GT3 Well (at least if you have one....)
"Describing a Porsche engine as a "Mezger" engine really started when Porsche invented the 996 3.4 engine and stuck that POS in the 996.
Previous to the 996 3.4 POS engine all Porsche 911s had had "Mezger" engines going back for many years but guess what, Porsche wanted to become the most profitable car manufacturer in the world and replacing an expensive proven engine (~£30+K worth of Mezger) with a brand new 21st century design 996 997 (£~8K worth) and charging the same price did the job and made Porsche mega bucks....."
"they are compared to the cheapo NA lumps but in 1995 the only engine you could have in ANY 911 was what they now described as a "Motorsport" engine..... Porsche marketing - job done "
The only reason Andrea Preuninger Head of GT3 said he kept a so marketing called Mezger engine is that they were just not ready with the current DFI , so if i recall well they involved an external small motor prts factory to assemble the engine on behalf of Porsche while they where busy with th enew 9a1 in GTx sauce...
Ignorance of the Mass people drives the Bubbles....
#97
Rennlist Member
Mezger motors have been around a lot longer than the 996. In fact the block on my 996TT is stamped with a 964.
I guess we'll see if the RS and cup cars get the 9A1. If Porsche races the 9A1 motor it will have probably about as much similarity to the street motors as the race Mezger block motors do to their street companions.........not very much!
There is also another thread that compares the differences between the GT3 9A1 and the regular 9A1 motor in the "cheaper" cars. You'll see the differences are significant. I guess if you think the Mezger motor in a 997 GT3 is the same as what Porsche races, then I could see why you think the GT3 9A1 is the same as that in a C2S.
This is a wonderfully entertaining thread.......thanks Destaccado!
I guess we'll see if the RS and cup cars get the 9A1. If Porsche races the 9A1 motor it will have probably about as much similarity to the street motors as the race Mezger block motors do to their street companions.........not very much!
There is also another thread that compares the differences between the GT3 9A1 and the regular 9A1 motor in the "cheaper" cars. You'll see the differences are significant. I guess if you think the Mezger motor in a 997 GT3 is the same as what Porsche races, then I could see why you think the GT3 9A1 is the same as that in a C2S.
This is a wonderfully entertaining thread.......thanks Destaccado!
#98
Race Car
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
Posts: 4,437
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249 Posts
#100
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Getting back to the topic of the thread, I'll predict that (a) the 997 GT3 will see some drop in value as more and more people come to view the 991 GT3 as an overall superior and more desirable car and (b) the 991 GT3 will hold value or appreciate for a while as supply drops and demand increases, but longer-term it will depend on what comes next. And I suspect that what comes next will be quite good, maybe even better than the 991 GT3, just as the 991 GT3 was a pleasant surprise.
#101
Getting back to the topic of the thread, I'll predict that (a) the 997 GT3 will see some drop in value as more and more people come to view the 991 GT3 as an overall superior and more desirable car and (b) the 991 GT3 will hold value or appreciate for a while as supply drops and demand increases, but longer-term it will depend on what comes next. And I suspect that what comes next will be quite good, maybe even better than the 991 GT3, just as the 991 GT3 was a pleasant surprise.
#102
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That point was brought home to me when I recently drove a McLaren 12C on track. To me, the power, power delivery, and sound were awesome, and I didn't even realize that it's a twin-turbo until I got home and did some reading about the car.
#103
12c is a fun and fast car, but had some teething issues.
Also the depreciation is out of the universe on those things.
#104
Rennlist Member
12c is a really great deal slightly used, bad deal if bought new...if they hit $100k i just might bite. I think they they are better looking than the most recent cars and could be a keeper
#105
Instructor
"Viewed simply as a driving experience and an object, the car doesn’t actually have a modern equivalent." - Chris Harris
This ^is the primary reason for values of preceding GT3s rising in value but this rise in values was entirely foreseeable. I posted the following on Pistonheads in October 2013:
" I'm convinced that 'analogue' GT3s have become instant classics with the launch of the new 'digital' 991 GT3. £15m probably buys every UK 997.2 GT3. The earlier GT3s can be had for much less. I can think of worse ways to 'invest' that kinda money!"
In hindsight, maybe I should have offered it up on Kickstarter!
Despite the quote above, Chris Harris focuses on the loss of the manual rather than the overall 991 GT3 experience. The loss of manual transmission is not the sole reason for the increase in value of other GT3s. Values have increased because these cars stand out as the pinnacle of what Porsche could accomplish as a 'traditional' sports car built for driving enjoyment. Coupled with their heritage, it's the end of an era and they've become very collectible.
The 991 GT3 was built to be an exceptionally fast car with GT3 characteristics designed in. I felt it was too fast to appreciate fully on the road whereas I continue to enjoy the GT3 driving experience in my 997.2 GT3 without driving like a bat out of hell. With respect to PDK, the 991 GT3 is incredibly fast and the last thing I want when I'm approaching warp speed at 8000 rpm is to focus on my shifts rather than the road. (I would also appreciate Porsche introducing a 'head up display' for that very reason.) The PDK suits this GT3 very well and I wouldn't have it any other way. That said, I prefer the enjoyment of the manual transmission in my 997.2 GT3 which is driven primarily on the road and where it belongs. If I wanted a track car, I would have bought the RS.
Whilst it's true that 991 GT3 values in the UK are elevated, I also don't believe it's because of limited numbers (Porsche has supplied more 991 GT3s than 997.2 GT3s) but rather due to greater demand as it's more usable as a daily driver. AP talked about greater bandwidth for the 991 GT3 and that's exactly what he's delivered. The other significant factor is that, compared to left hand drive cars, there are considerably fewer right hand drive GT3s produced. With emerging markets across Asia, the export market for these cars is strong which serves to reduce supply in the UK and consequently strengthen prices further.
GT3 RS variants have shared their engine with the GT3 albeit in more powerful form. However, for the first time, the GT3 RS will receive not just a different but a brand new engine which will ultimately be rolled out across the range. Therefore, it stands to reason that the 991.2 GT3 will share that same engine rather than the engine from the 991.1 GT3. Many believed the current GT3 could be the last naturally aspirated GT3 however it's likely that privilege will be reserved for the 991.2 GT3. With the remainder of the 911 range being turbocharged, it will be a very desirable car and demand will be exceptionally high. That said, it doesn't follow that the newer engine will necessarily be the better engine.
I believe the GT3 RS will retain PDK and Porsche will satisfy the market for manual transmission with the upcoming GT4 which apparently is "a proper motorsport car" whatever that means - Mezger? Is that possible? It will have to be a very special car to justify the anticipated price hike over the GTS. Rumour has it the car will be revealed next week and may be present at the Chicago Motor Show.
Where does that leave the 991 GT3? Who knows?! I think it is a unique car with a very unique engine; only time will tell if this is a positive or a negative. I never planned to keep my 991 GT3 for longer than a year but disposed of it earlier than expected due to my poor dealer experience. However, I'm now being looked after by a 'friendly' dealer who has confirmed my letters of intent for the GT4, 991.2 GT3, RS and any variant thereof and I'm looking forward to all of them. There's no guarantee any of them will be built but, if they are, the 991 GT3 will be superseded and become, I believe, a distant memory ... for most.
If that happens, I expect a crossover of value with the 991 GT3 being surpassed by the 996/997 iterations. The 991 GT3 is a great car but it takes more for it to become a 'classic'. With the passing of time, the heritage of the older cars will be the justification for them to become increasingly collectible.
Regardless of what happens, the GT3 in 996/997/991 guises were built to be driven by people who enjoy driving so enjoy.
If anyone's looking at them in terms of investment, there are better returns to be had elsewhere with significantly less risk.
This ^is the primary reason for values of preceding GT3s rising in value but this rise in values was entirely foreseeable. I posted the following on Pistonheads in October 2013:
" I'm convinced that 'analogue' GT3s have become instant classics with the launch of the new 'digital' 991 GT3. £15m probably buys every UK 997.2 GT3. The earlier GT3s can be had for much less. I can think of worse ways to 'invest' that kinda money!"
In hindsight, maybe I should have offered it up on Kickstarter!
Despite the quote above, Chris Harris focuses on the loss of the manual rather than the overall 991 GT3 experience. The loss of manual transmission is not the sole reason for the increase in value of other GT3s. Values have increased because these cars stand out as the pinnacle of what Porsche could accomplish as a 'traditional' sports car built for driving enjoyment. Coupled with their heritage, it's the end of an era and they've become very collectible.
The 991 GT3 was built to be an exceptionally fast car with GT3 characteristics designed in. I felt it was too fast to appreciate fully on the road whereas I continue to enjoy the GT3 driving experience in my 997.2 GT3 without driving like a bat out of hell. With respect to PDK, the 991 GT3 is incredibly fast and the last thing I want when I'm approaching warp speed at 8000 rpm is to focus on my shifts rather than the road. (I would also appreciate Porsche introducing a 'head up display' for that very reason.) The PDK suits this GT3 very well and I wouldn't have it any other way. That said, I prefer the enjoyment of the manual transmission in my 997.2 GT3 which is driven primarily on the road and where it belongs. If I wanted a track car, I would have bought the RS.
Whilst it's true that 991 GT3 values in the UK are elevated, I also don't believe it's because of limited numbers (Porsche has supplied more 991 GT3s than 997.2 GT3s) but rather due to greater demand as it's more usable as a daily driver. AP talked about greater bandwidth for the 991 GT3 and that's exactly what he's delivered. The other significant factor is that, compared to left hand drive cars, there are considerably fewer right hand drive GT3s produced. With emerging markets across Asia, the export market for these cars is strong which serves to reduce supply in the UK and consequently strengthen prices further.
GT3 RS variants have shared their engine with the GT3 albeit in more powerful form. However, for the first time, the GT3 RS will receive not just a different but a brand new engine which will ultimately be rolled out across the range. Therefore, it stands to reason that the 991.2 GT3 will share that same engine rather than the engine from the 991.1 GT3. Many believed the current GT3 could be the last naturally aspirated GT3 however it's likely that privilege will be reserved for the 991.2 GT3. With the remainder of the 911 range being turbocharged, it will be a very desirable car and demand will be exceptionally high. That said, it doesn't follow that the newer engine will necessarily be the better engine.
I believe the GT3 RS will retain PDK and Porsche will satisfy the market for manual transmission with the upcoming GT4 which apparently is "a proper motorsport car" whatever that means - Mezger? Is that possible? It will have to be a very special car to justify the anticipated price hike over the GTS. Rumour has it the car will be revealed next week and may be present at the Chicago Motor Show.
Where does that leave the 991 GT3? Who knows?! I think it is a unique car with a very unique engine; only time will tell if this is a positive or a negative. I never planned to keep my 991 GT3 for longer than a year but disposed of it earlier than expected due to my poor dealer experience. However, I'm now being looked after by a 'friendly' dealer who has confirmed my letters of intent for the GT4, 991.2 GT3, RS and any variant thereof and I'm looking forward to all of them. There's no guarantee any of them will be built but, if they are, the 991 GT3 will be superseded and become, I believe, a distant memory ... for most.
If that happens, I expect a crossover of value with the 991 GT3 being surpassed by the 996/997 iterations. The 991 GT3 is a great car but it takes more for it to become a 'classic'. With the passing of time, the heritage of the older cars will be the justification for them to become increasingly collectible.
Regardless of what happens, the GT3 in 996/997/991 guises were built to be driven by people who enjoy driving so enjoy.
If anyone's looking at them in terms of investment, there are better returns to be had elsewhere with significantly less risk.