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GT3 values, and Chris Harris speaks marketplace

 
Old 01-30-2015, 05:12 AM
  #46  
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Will the 991 appreciate as well?
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Old 01-30-2015, 06:26 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
This nonsense about the value of GT3s is tiring. They havent eclipsed their original retail price of only a few years ago in most cases
I disagree. Any time a recent car model goes up it's worth taking notice. In some cases (RS 4.0) we've seen values double in four years. It's worth asking why...

Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Many collectors feel it all went to the dogs after the 993. This thing we think we are feeling about the purity of the 996/997 GT3 is all complete BS when you dial it back to the earlier cars that actually had the same crank case numbers as the much praised GT1 the engine basis now known of as Mezger which 10 years ago was known as GT1 engine and before that not discussed at all. Having been an aircooled guy all the time I find it fascinating listening to the 996/997 croud about "purity".
To some extent it did all go to the dogs after the 993, though not for the reasons many cite... Porsche started "value-based pricing", disconnecting the price you pay nearly entirely from what it cost them to make. Costs were reduced across the board, and as a result less quality was built into the average Porsche street car. Dry sumps, race durable transmission and suspension components, all gone. The end of air cooling wasn't the issue, it was a change of philosophy. Porsche profits skyrocketed, Porsche not only survived but thrived. But look at what those cars are worth now...

The GT3 bucked that trend. Where other cars were stripped and de-contented, the GT3 held fast, and those in the know got far more than they paid for. Every era of GT3 has flaws, but as a driver's package they were the best of their generations.

The 991 GT3 represents the biggest change to the formula so far, and thus it was probably inevitable that we would also hear the most moans. In part this is likely simply because of the lack of continuous evolution- if we'd jumped straight from the 996 GT3 to the GT3 RS 4.0, as good as that car is, many more would have complained that it's too locked down, too fast, etc.

While one could wish for all those experiences in the middle that would have been missed, it'd be hard for me to complain about- you simply can't have everything.

There is one complaint about the 991 GT3 that I think is more valid, and it keeps coming up in various forms, echoing despite the wide and justifiable praise the car has received. You hear it in CH's videos, when he asks how fun it would be on the road. You hear it in the repeated wishes for a manual transmission, but it's not simply the gearbox. Jethro Bovington put it well I thought in the latest EVO:

Originally Posted by EVO magazine
If the GT3 has any real weakness it's that it really does require that abandon for it to come alive. Of course, its innate control and precision can be enjoyed at any speed, but to really feel like you're driving rather than simply operating it means carrying serious pace. Previous GT3s always improved the harder you tried, but without the manual 'box to manipulate, that glorious old serrated engine note and the amazingly intimate steering, and with less management of the peculiar weight distribution required, the 991 doesn't feel special on every journey.
The 991 has brought improvements in comfort and usability, but a car like this really only has one mission in my mind, and that's to put a smile on the face. And while I know it will do that impeccably on the track, personally on the street I feel it's actually harder to find the sweet spot than in previous generations. Thus while the new GT3's breadth of ability and usability has increased, for what I care about, the range of driving situations where I can have fun, it's actually less accessible than previous generation.

It's a fundamental issue all cars face today to some extent, as they are getting so fast on the top that it's difficult to keep the bottom involving. I also know that it's a very personal thing, so I'm not criticizing your choices. Better drivers than me might find the manual so unconscious that it's not involving any more, while worse might find it limiting and distracting slightly more of the time. However my $.02 is that values of the previous GT3s are being driven up by a feeling that perhaps they approached a high point in terms of this ability to enjoy a car across a wide range of situations.

I like many things about the 991- I think the engine is better, I admire and enjoy the agility the RWS gives it, it's clearly faster, but perhaps it's gotten "too good" for its own good. If one was in a garage with my favorite Porsches, RS 4.0, 996 GT3, all the way back to my 180 hp 912, I simply don't see grabbing the keys for a weekend drive on the street all that often. It's perhaps unfair to compare it to the best Porsches ever made for that, but I do... And hence it's not top of my list at the moment, though if I was primarily using it for track work it probably would be. Ironic, as it would likely also be the most comfortable of any of the options...

One thing is clear- as well as the GT3 has been reviewed and sold, quite a few of the Porsche faithful have not fully embraced it, and values of the previous GT3s are being driven up largely as a direct result.
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:20 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by 997s07 View Post
Those who have the 991 GT3 will, for the most part, side with the 9A1. That much has been clear for a while. There was a a lot of back and forth on the consolodated RS thread about the Mezger and the GT3 9A1. The bottom line is that the Mezger is raced, used in the 991 Cup and 991 RSR, and the 9A1 isn't. Why? No one really knows for sure, but logic does say the 9A1 may not have been up to par.

End of story, the "GT1" engine won Le Mans, and the 9A1 has so far won nothing. The 9A1 engine is a lot lighter than the GT1 engine. It's more efficient, better low end torque, but still not good enough to race.

And as far as the market goes, the values of manual cars for non GT cars are lower than their comparable PDK versions. The GT1 engine does have a pull on the market.
have you owned both to compare the two? many of us have....
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:28 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Petevb View Post
I disagree. Any time a recent car model goes up it's worth taking notice. In some cases (RS 4.0) we've seen values double in four years. It's worth asking why...


To some extent it did all go to the dogs after the 993, though not for the reasons many cite... Porsche started "value-based pricing", disconnecting the price you pay nearly entirely from what it cost them to make. Costs were reduced across the board, and as a result less quality was built into the average Porsche street car. Dry sumps, race durable transmission and suspension components, all gone. The end of air cooling wasn't the issue, it was a change of philosophy. Porsche profits skyrocketed, Porsche not only survived but thrived. But look at what those cars are worth now...

The GT3 bucked that trend. Where other cars were stripped and de-contented, the GT3 held fast, and those in the know got far more than they paid for. Every era of GT3 has flaws, but as a driver's package they were the best of their generations.

The 991 GT3 represents the biggest change to the formula so far, and thus it was probably inevitable that we would also hear the most moans. In part this is likely simply because of the lack of continuous evolution- if we'd jumped straight from the 996 GT3 to the GT3 RS 4.0, as good as that car is, many more would have complained that it's too locked down, too fast, etc.

While one could wish for all those experiences in the middle that would have been missed, it'd be hard for me to complain about- you simply can't have everything.

There is one complaint about the 991 GT3 that I think is more valid, and it keeps coming up in various forms, echoing despite the wide and justifiable praise the car has received. You hear it in CH's videos, when he asks how fun it would be on the road. You hear it in the repeated wishes for a manual transmission, but it's not simply the gearbox. Jethro Bovington put it well I thought in the latest EVO:



The 991 has brought improvements in comfort and usability, but a car like this really only has one mission in my mind, and that's to put a smile on the face. And while I know it will do that impeccably on the track, personally on the street I feel it's actually harder to find the sweet spot than in previous generations. Thus while the new GT3's breadth of ability and usability has increased, for what I care about, the range of driving situations where I can have fun, it's actually less accessible than previous generation.

It's a fundamental issue all cars face today to some extent, as they are getting so fast on the top that it's difficult to keep the bottom involving. I also know that it's a very personal thing, so I'm not criticizing your choices. Better drivers than me might find the manual so unconscious that it's not involving any more, while worse might find it limiting and distracting slightly more of the time. However my $.02 is that values of the previous GT3s are being driven up by a feeling that perhaps they approached a high point in terms of this ability to enjoy a car across a wide range of situations.

I like many things about the 991- I think the engine is better, I admire and enjoy the agility the RWS gives it, it's clearly faster, but perhaps it's gotten "too good" for its own good. If one was in a garage with my favorite Porsches, RS 4.0, 996 GT3, all the way back to my 180 hp 912, I simply don't see grabbing the keys for a weekend drive on the street all that often. It's perhaps unfair to compare it to the best Porsches ever made for that, but I do... And hence it's not top of my list at the moment, though if I was primarily using it for track work it probably would be. Ironic, as it would likely also be the most comfortable of any of the options...

One thing is clear- as well as the GT3 has been reviewed and sold, quite a few of the Porsche faithful have not fully embraced it, and values of the previous GT3s are being driven up largely as a direct result.
well thought out post... especially the part about relativity...

for guys like me, the better question is - pick whatever Porsche you can for $150k or less... you can only have one... doesn't mean its a daily driver, mine is not, and many are not.... but in a stable with a 4.0 or cool vintage Porsches, maybe I don't grab the keys either... but I have owned some of those types of cars, and right now, as an only Porsche for weekend driving, I personally still think it is very fun and involving at street speeds... the sound and pull of the engine, the snorting and popping of the gearbox...if you stay in manual mode all the time, it still requires a fair amount of "thinking" on the street about what/when to select the right gear... of course I tend to get tired with any of them after a year or two, so I am sure that I will be wanting to do something different soon enough
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:13 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by AC SATCO View Post

9a1 is the newest, the best, the fastest, the highest revving, the most efficient, most reliable, and on and on. i don't care if its in the race cars, and no one here can even state for a fact that the 9a1 isn't in the race cars due to it not being race worthy, there are many theories as to why its not raced yet.
Spot on
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:20 AM
  #51  
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yes SATCO... precisely right...
+1
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:28 AM
  #52  
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I certainly agree with Pete's line of reasoning regarding that one 'weakness' of the 991 GT3 (and have taken plenty of crap for saying so), and I think the quote from Bovington expresses the point well.

IMO, to enjoy the car on the road, a big factor is the roads you'll be driving on and the pace you're willing and able to carry, considering safety and law enforcement.

I do think the car can be enjoyed on some roads at reasonable pace, but other cars may be found equally or more enjoyable on the same roads and pace (I still enjoy driving my other cars, even though I've mostly been driving the GT3 for the past couple weeks). The 'comfort' of the GT3 at low to moderate speeds is arguably both a positive and a negative. Maybe a Miata will complement the GT3 nicely.

I'll also offer the thought, contrary to what I've said before, that if somebody bought the car to drive on the road only, driving it on the track once or twice, just to see what it can do in that setting, might diminish subsequent enjoyment of the car on the road (anti-climax effect), but perhaps that varies from one person to the next.

All of that said, so far I still think it's an amazing car and am very glad I own one.

Last edited by Manifold; 01-30-2015 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:34 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by mrsullivan View Post
well thought out post... especially the part about relativity...

for guys like me, the better question is - pick whatever Porsche you can for $150k or less... you can only have one... doesn't mean its a daily driver, mine is not, and many are not.... but in a stable with a 4.0 or cool vintage Porsches, maybe I don't grab the keys either... but I have owned some of those types of cars, and right now, as an only Porsche for weekend driving, I personally still think it is very fun and involving at street speeds... the sound and pull of the engine, the snorting and popping of the gearbox...if you stay in manual mode all the time, it still requires a fair amount of "thinking" on the street about what/when to select the right gear... of course I tend to get tired with any of them after a year or two, so I am sure that I will be wanting to do something different soon enough
+1

The whole issue about the 9a1 engine not being race proven is neither here nor there. I stand to be corrected but the Mezger engine in previous production GT3's was not identical to the Mezger in their race cars. Those had modified Mezger engines.

After owning a .2 GT3, for me the 991 GT3 is as engaging as my .2 was and is for reasons that have been mentioned by others, far more practical for street driving than the .2 was.

Supply and demand will ulimately determine values. Afaik, no GT3 variant has taken a ginormous drop in value over time. The 991 GT3 should be no different.

Last edited by Haku; 01-30-2015 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:44 AM
  #54  
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I agree completely with FXZ.

Which companies are going to be making further investments in combustion engines? Not many -- the next big thing is the shift to electrically augmented engines.

IMO when folks look back at the GT3 and other 991s, they are going to say "that was the best of that era". It's why people still love a 993 -- the best of the air cooled era. The 991 will be known as the last and best of the pure NA engine era.
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:49 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Haku View Post
I stand to be corrected but the Mezger engine in previous production GT3's was not identical to the Mezger in their race cars. Those had modified Mezger engines.
No question there, the race Mezgers were modified, and got more so as the years went on. Cup cars had different oil pumps, no variocam, no emissions equipment, cable throttle, different flywheel, freeze plugs, etc- the list goes on. They are unquestionably quite different.

I think some of the hesitation about not racing the 9A1, however, is that it was exactly these parts that were not shared with the race cars that have proved most problematic in previous GT3s. Sharing parts with the race cars, which were certain to be used harder than the street cars ever would, seemed a guarantee of sorts that those parts would be OK in street or trackday use.

If the new engine isn't raced, that guarantee seems to go away. It could have been replaced with testing, and perhaps it was, but it's tough to know until the engines get more miles on them. I've said before that my money's on the 9A1 proving more reliable in the long run, but it's tough to know now, and I think that's where much of the hesitation comes from. That and the loss of the unquestionable "old school cool" of sharing the same basic architecture as the winning-est LeMans engine of all time (13, if you're counting).
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Old 01-30-2015, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Petevb View Post
No question there, the race Mezgers were modified, and got more so as the years went on. Cup cars had different oil pumps, no variocam, no emissions equipment, cable throttle, different flywheel, freeze plugs, etc- the list goes on. They are unquestionably quite different.

I think some of the hesitation about not racing the 9A1, however, is that it was exactly these parts that were not shared with the race cars that have proved most problematic in previous GT3s. Sharing parts with the race cars, which were certain to be used harder than the street cars ever would, seemed a guarantee of sorts that those parts would be OK in street or trackday use.

If the new engine isn't raced, that guarantee seems to go away. It could have been replaced with testing, and perhaps it was, but it's tough to know until the engines get more miles on them. I've said before that my money's on the 9A1 proving more reliable in the long run, but it's tough to know now, and I think that's where much of the hesitation comes from. That and the loss of the unquestionable "old school cool" of sharing the same basic architecture as the winning-est LeMans engine of all time (13, if you're counting).
but pete, don't we know that "amateur" racers have been flogging the living daylights out of this engine, at 9k shifts, all day long, lap after lap, for over a year now, on U.S. circuits, without incident (for the most part)...? Obviously not the same rigors as "real" racing, but a fairly good analog, no? I ask this not from personal experience, but from what I read and hear...
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:15 AM
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Pete. Well written as always. The single point I agree with in your response is that the car may not be as enjoyable/involving all the time at all speeds as a manual. Up until recent summer drives in NZ where I was lucky enough to get up every morning early with a friend and absolutely push the car on quiet twist back roads I was tending to think this too. However I have been lucky to have had many drives this summer that have satiated me in that car although I agree you need to be going faster than before, taking more risk, have empty roads etc and these things are becoming scarce these days. My 993 is as fun to drive at 75% speed I cannot doubt. However the one thing forgotten here is that as the roads become busier we spend more time in traffic, inevitable regardless if we are going on a weekend drive with our GT3, or touring in the car to tracks far and wide, the new Gt3 is a better place to be than the older cars IMO whist being just as special. Even short journeys down the road still seem so much fun for me still after 6000 miles and 14 months. I always use manual now and that keeps me busy and the chunterring and sounds of that engine and transmission really put a smile on my face. The car still sees far more seat time than my beloved modified 993. I thought this would have worn off by now but it hasn't and threatens me selling the 993 for a new GT4 later this year lol!

In terms of values I think it's way to early to tell where this goes. The impact of the new RS will help seek the direction as will what news is announced about the future of tech in the Gat series cars and wether the GT3 survives beyond 991 model type at all. Older cars will hold values well based on the rising tide theory which has created situations in many markets of 964, SC, early 911 etc doubling in price over the last 24 months. IMO older GT3s have actually lagged well behind and should have pulled a bit harder - I think a 996.2 GT3 is a bargain right now by way of example.
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:31 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Petevb View Post
No question there, the race Mezgers were modified, and got more so as the years went on. Cup cars had different oil pumps, no variocam, no emissions equipment, cable throttle, different flywheel, freeze plugs, etc- the list goes on. They are unquestionably quite different.

I think some of the hesitation about not racing the 9A1, however, is that it was exactly these parts that were not shared with the race cars that have proved most problematic in previous GT3s. Sharing parts with the race cars, which were certain to be used harder than the street cars ever would, seemed a guarantee of sorts that those parts would be OK in street or trackday use.

If the new engine isn't raced, that guarantee seems to go away. It could have been replaced with testing, and perhaps it was, but it's tough to know until the engines get more miles on them. I've said before that my money's on the 9A1 proving more reliable in the long run, but it's tough to know now, and I think that's where much of the hesitation comes from. That and the loss of the unquestionable "old school cool" of sharing the same basic architecture as the winning-est LeMans engine of all time (13, if you're counting).
Thank you for your clear and wonderfully explained response. I appreciate your and other' comments as you all have a greater depth of knowledge about these engines that I do.

All hearsay but by the latest accounts the 9A1, albeit in a modified version, will most probably power the RS. If that were to be the case, I would think that it would give further credibility to the robustness of the 9A1.

Last edited by Haku; 01-30-2015 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Petevb View Post
No question there, the race Mezgers were modified, and got more so as the years went on. Cup cars had different oil pumps, no variocam, no emissions equipment, cable throttle, different flywheel, freeze plugs, etc- the list goes on. They are unquestionably quite different.

I think some of the hesitation about not racing the 9A1, however, is that it was exactly these parts that were not shared with the race cars that have proved most problematic in previous GT3s. Sharing parts with the race cars, which were certain to be used harder than the street cars ever would, seemed a guarantee of sorts that those parts would be OK in street or trackday use.

If the new engine isn't raced, that guarantee seems to go away. It could have been replaced with testing, and perhaps it was, but it's tough to know until the engines get more miles on them. I've said before that my money's on the 9A1 proving more reliable in the long run, but it's tough to know now, and I think that's where much of the hesitation comes from. That and the loss of the unquestionable "old school cool" of sharing the same basic architecture as the winning-est LeMans engine of all time (13, if you're counting).
Very well said. In part we purchase a pedigree with a Porsche, a connection to the marque and its history which the new motor has yet to achieve. Not really a practical consideration but something that adds to the emotion of ownership.
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Old 01-30-2015, 11:27 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by mrsullivan View Post
have you owned both to compare the two? many of us have....
I've owned a 997.2, a 997.1, and have had extensive seat time in Germany (where I work ~50% of the time) in a 996 RS, and the 991 GT3 (Hockenheimring, and all over Munich).

For me the best was the 996 RS. I decided on not purchasing the 991 at the Munich airport.

My opinions are mine, but I know at least three guys back home that now sold their 991 and are tracking down a 997.2 GT3.
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