mainly

yes it is, but when you consider its over 7 minutes. it works out to about 1% faster.

malmasri

What he says at the end describes it best.

Manifold

At the tracks I go to (VIR to MO to WG region), lap times are usually in the 1:15 to 2:20 range. The 5 seconds at the 'ring translates to about 1 second at those tracks. That's something, but not sure it's enough, considering that the RS costs about $50K or $60K more than the regular GT3. And again, the 991 GT3 seems to be only about 2 seconds faster than the C2S at these tracks, despite having better tires.

The diminishing returns when going from the 991 C2S to GT3 to RS make me suspect that stickier tires and track-only suspension with multi-way shocks are needed to bring the performance closer to a 991 cup car. More aero, more power, RWS, etc. seem to have a more modest benefit than many would predict.

But OTOH, all of this info suggests (to me) that the 991 platform is considerably superior to the 997 if performance is the goal (that difference is also readily apparent if you drive a base 997 and base 991 back to back, each with some vigor). Of course, subjective enjoyment of a car is another matter, and to each his own there.

orthojoe

What was the lap time differences between the 997.2 GT3 and 997.2 GTRS? Wasn't it only about a second in a 2-3 mile track as well?

3GO1GO

Manifold, Mazda has a new MX5 coming out - it sounds all you

kosmo

^^^ the GT3 driven by Rohl did a 7:40. whereas an RS did a 7:33.

SO if a new RS can post a 7:20, I'd say it's progress!

kosmo

Just realized that a GT2 RS w/ 620hp posted a 7:18. If these # are to be believed it lends a lot of creedance to what Manifold stated about the superiority of the 991 chasis...

vf430

To me this does not make sense, you have 75 hp more and better chassis , suspension and still have only 2 seconds off c2s time. So a C2s with track suspension like Kwv3 etc will post the same lap times as Gt3? If the delta between c2s and gt3 is only 2 seconds on most tracks ....then in reality most wont see any noticeable difference by upgrading to GT3 on track with all other variables (traffic , tires , driver etc).

wonder what a 981 Cs runs at willow compared to 400 Hp c2s? That may explain things better.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow...of_willow.html

ipse dixit

I see what you are saying but wouldn't quite a bit depend on the type of track we're using as a point of reference?

I suppose a longer a course with lots of straightaways might mute some of the unique attributes of the GT3 (RWS, better aero/downforce, sharper PDK, etc) whereas a more technical course would underscore those same attributes.

Just a thought.

vf430

Longer course will give GT3 advantage due to extra 75 HP. Long or short GT3 should be ahead of c2s.

Manifold

A few thoughts:

- Peak torque of the GT3 and C2S seems to be the same, and GT3 needs higher rpm to get it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_991

- GT3 has significantly more peak hp than C2S, but this advantage would come into play more at sustained very high speeds, like you have on some of the 'ring, less so at shorter US tracks.

- I'd guess that GT3 has more aero drag at high speeds, which would negate some of its hp advantage at those speeds.

- Not sure how much the aero of the GT3 increases cornering speeds at typical US tracks, where max apex speeds are usually under 90 mph, often much lower.

- Both GT3 and C2S are hobbled by PASM shocks, which are compromised by having to be tolerable on the road. A high-end motorsports 3 or 4-way adjustable shock which is dialed in well is in a different league as far as performance.

Maybe we should flip the question: besides the better tires, what are the compelling reasons why the GT3 should be much faster than the C2S?

kosmo

Recall the c2s was the 50th ed w/ a wider rear and 30hp more.
I agree w/ you that a tuned c2s has the potential to be faster than a gt3.
But at the end of day we know its all about the driver.

vf430

Good points , but on a high speed track like willow springs which favors High HP cars i expected that 75 extra HP to yield more than 2 seconds. That better aero must enable gt3 to corner much higher speeds. It would be cool to see overlay plot of c2s and gt3 same track with telemetry.
I know this is not a great example but my 981 cs was at least 4 seconds slower than my friends 991 c2s (Both cars PDK and similar skill). The delta between 981cs and 991 c2s is 75hp.

If the gap is only 2 sec on the fastest tracks , then in almost all other tracks the gap will be nil.

FastLaneTurbo

We should remember that the 7:18 at the Ring was with a 620 HP GT2RS at twice the price of a GT3 andSport Auto has not been able to match this time.

Judging from past lap times, IIRC rumors are correct. The "RS" version will only
be 1-2 Seconds faster on most U.S. Tracks and the New Crawford Wing for the GT3 @$2,960 will bring the GT3 very close to the GT3RS performance IMHO.

TRACK LAP TIME DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 997 GT3 AND GT3RS MODELS
<www.fastestlaps.com>

Hockenheim: 0.9 Seconds 1:10.4 vs 1:09.5
Autozeitung: 0.8 Seconds 1:35.8 vs 1:35.0
Tsukuba: 0.33 Seconds 1:04.84 vs 1:04.51
Sachsenring: 1.36 Seconds 1:36.11 vs 1:34.75
Magny Cours: 0.24 Seconds 1:22.2 vs 1:21.78

Note Randy's comments at 7:45 in the Video that the "Turn In" and Steering Response was excellent, the best he ever felt in a GT3, "But the Rear will let go in the middle of a corner it's tricky". I have exactly the same opinion as Randy states in the Video which is why I had Crawford design the new Wing for me - and make it available at a reasonable cost to my fellow RLs. www.crawfordcomposites.com
FMI see New Crawford Wing for GT3 thread.

Manifold

Delta between C2S and GT3 at the 'ring was 13 s, so dividing by 5 let's say the delta at a typical track is more like 2.5 s. That would make delta between the GTS and GT3 less than that, let's say around 1.5 to 2 s, which is what this particular test indicated. And of course these deltas go down if you give the C2S and GTS the same tires as the GT3.

I still suspect that because the GT3 has more hp but no additional torque, the benefit of additional hp is reduced.

And while the aero of the GT3 looks nice, maybe the benefit over a C2S or GTS with flap deployed isn't as much as one might guess? The wings on the RS and 911 race cars tend to be quite a bit bigger.