New Mclaren P13 a GT3 Competitor?
12-19-2014, 08:45 PM
#16
As a 12C owner with a GT3 awaiting me in Germany and some very limited time in the 991 GT3, the 12C has been magnificent! It is probably worth the cost of my GT3 in trade or less but my lord it is way more car. It is also very track competent. Now if you give a crap about nav and other irrelevant crap the 12C will **** you off. As for the subjective business about engagement or whatever, all I can say is whatever. Pace is pace and the 12C has it.
Now I have no idea what to expect out of the P13. If it is sufficiently detuned from the 12C then the 991 GT3 will crush it, as the GT3 is a bargain alternative that does not give up much to the 12C. Personally, I hope the P13 has nothing for the GT3 other than valet appeal or I'm in For another huge drop in 12C value!
Now I have no idea what to expect out of the P13. If it is sufficiently detuned from the 12C then the 991 GT3 will crush it, as the GT3 is a bargain alternative that does not give up much to the 12C. Personally, I hope the P13 has nothing for the GT3 other than valet appeal or I'm in For another huge drop in 12C value!
12-19-2014, 09:27 PM
#17
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As a 12C owner with a GT3 awaiting me in Germany and some very limited time in the 991 GT3, the 12C has been magnificent! It is probably worth the cost of my GT3 in trade or less but my lord it is way more car. It is also very track competent. Now if you give a crap about nav and other irrelevant crap the 12C will **** you off. As for the subjective business about engagement or whatever, all I can say is whatever. Pace is pace and the 12C has it.
Now I have no idea what to expect out of the P13. If it is sufficiently detuned from the 12C then the 991 GT3 will crush it, as the GT3 is a bargain alternative that does not give up much to the 12C. Personally, I hope the P13 has nothing for the GT3 other than valet appeal or I'm in For another huge drop in 12C value!
Now I have no idea what to expect out of the P13. If it is sufficiently detuned from the 12C then the 991 GT3 will crush it, as the GT3 is a bargain alternative that does not give up much to the 12C. Personally, I hope the P13 has nothing for the GT3 other than valet appeal or I'm in For another huge drop in 12C value!
12-19-2014, 09:36 PM
#19
I have driven the 650S spider. Remember that the hp delta is 25 over 12C. If you are interested in a Mac the 12C is the bargain of the century. For overall use, I prefer the 12C
12-19-2014, 09:40 PM
#20
12-19-2014, 10:34 PM
#21
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Cars are like art for me. I look and review them and either like them or don't like them. I may have preferences, but I believe total brand loyalty blinds one to other possibilities.
12-19-2014, 10:42 PM
#22
Find it very strange, when people are blindly obsessed with one car or brand.
12-19-2014, 11:08 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
I’ll throw in my few cents after putting over 6k miles on my MP4-12C.
There are a handful of quality issues with the McLaren as mentioned above, but they are all minor in the grand scheme of things. One important thing to differentiate is that all of the quality issues with the McLaren are what I would consider to be “annoyances” and not “problems.”
None of the wheels have fallen off, no engines have failed or caught fire, none of the cam bolts have backed out, clutches grenade, thermostats failed, glued coolant fittings popped out, bronze LSD clutch discs failed, etc.
The common issues with the 12C are: haze buildup in the front headlights, condensation buildup in the taillights, turn signal switch failure, weather stripping becoming unglued, infotainment unit bugs (which have largely been fixed with the updated unit). It is only a compliment to the car that these are the most serious issues faced!
What McLaren has achieved with the MP4-12C, as their first mass production vehicle, is nothing short of astounding.
On to how it drives:
The engine is like a turbocharged GT3. It's what the old GT2 wishes it was. The power delivery is brutal and the torque just builds and builds all the way to the 8500 rpm redline. Not like the disappointing output of a turbocharged Porsche which gives you a huge rush of torque at low rpm but doesn't motivate you to rev.
The suspension is sublime. The spread between the most comfortable and extreme settings is incredibly wide - like going from an S-class to a GT3 RS. I recently completed a 1,400 mile road trip in mine without any fatigue. It's also hydraulically linked on all four corners - this is similar to the "FRIC" technology that was banned in F1 this year, and it really helps control squat and dive under high rates of acceleration.
The transmission isn't as good as a PDK-S, but I find it more than up for the task. The 1-2 shift is a little delayed, but you learn to pull the paddle momentarily before you want the shift executed, and it does not become a problem. Under WOT, the shifts are, as the "seamless shift gearbox" title suggests, seamless. It is also very comfortable around town, like a good torque converter automatic. No drama and imperceptible shifts for the passenger.
The sound is wonderful. When you first hit the start button, you get an amazing bark, which no 911 can replicate. A GT3 sounds better at WOT, but the McLaren sounds better, more frequently, in typical day to day use. It sounds beautifully at low rpm and small throttle opening.
The frontal visibility is the best of any car I've sat in, due to the enormous windshield and dash that actually slopes down as it meets the windshield. The front spoiler has lots of front clearance so you don't sweat going off the paved surface and onto a dirt vista point.
It just looks, sounds, feels exotic, without taking anything from its usability, comfort, performance, and (at least so far) mechanical reliability. It feels special even sitting in it at a standstill.
What I think needs improvement:
Power does not really come on until 3k rpm. Sometimes when corners are exited at below 3k rpm, you momentarily bog down. Then again, a car like the GT3 has poor power at that engine speed, so it’s about a wash between the cars. I think if this upcoming McLaren utilizes smaller or VTG turbos, compared to the 12C, which will bring the boost threshold closer to 2k rpm, that it would be a flawless power plant.
The car has normal/sport/track settings for “handling” and “powertrain.” The electronic nannies can be intrusive as there is no way to adjust the dampers and traction control separately from each other - both are lumped into the “handling” mode. For example, if you are cruising in normal handling mode, and want to take a corner quickly, the amount of power available to you upon exit will be limited. On the other extreme, track handling mode is the only time where the car allows you to completely disengage all driver’s aids. The uselessness of this feature is that the McLaren’s track mode is even more extreme that a GT3’s sport damper mode, and completely unbearable on the street. The fix would be to have three *****: “dampers,” “traction control,” and “powertrain.” Generally speaking, sport mode is just on the money. Maybe the way the car is programmed is better for the perpetuation of the driver’s life, but it would be more fun with some modification.
It doesn't have the traction of a 911. This is physics at work - the engine isn't behind the rear wheels in a McLaren.
The headroom is limited for taller people, especially when fitted with the optional power/heated seats. My understanding is that the cabin will be larger in this new car, which is great news.
McLaren doesn't have a community and knowledge base as Porsche. Information such as track setup, maintenance, repairs, scan tools, etc isn't available. This should improve in time once the brand becomes more established, sells more cars, and gains more enthusiasts. For me, this is the biggest disappointment of my ownership. I'm a pretty hands on guy, I have build my own 4.0 engine for my GT3, there is no repair on a GT3 that I'm not tooled or prepared to perform, and I enjoy track days. With the McLaren, I feel a little helpless, and at the mercy of the dealer.
The dealer network needs to be expanded. I know that, you know that, McLaren knows that. It’s just a matter of time until this is executed. I’m fortunate to have not one, but three dealers in my backyard, so this does not affect me personally.
Bottom Line:
I'm anticipating the introduction of the new McLaren model more than the GT3 RS, and even I can't believe I'm saying that.
There are a handful of quality issues with the McLaren as mentioned above, but they are all minor in the grand scheme of things. One important thing to differentiate is that all of the quality issues with the McLaren are what I would consider to be “annoyances” and not “problems.”
None of the wheels have fallen off, no engines have failed or caught fire, none of the cam bolts have backed out, clutches grenade, thermostats failed, glued coolant fittings popped out, bronze LSD clutch discs failed, etc.
The common issues with the 12C are: haze buildup in the front headlights, condensation buildup in the taillights, turn signal switch failure, weather stripping becoming unglued, infotainment unit bugs (which have largely been fixed with the updated unit). It is only a compliment to the car that these are the most serious issues faced!
What McLaren has achieved with the MP4-12C, as their first mass production vehicle, is nothing short of astounding.
On to how it drives:
The engine is like a turbocharged GT3. It's what the old GT2 wishes it was. The power delivery is brutal and the torque just builds and builds all the way to the 8500 rpm redline. Not like the disappointing output of a turbocharged Porsche which gives you a huge rush of torque at low rpm but doesn't motivate you to rev.
The suspension is sublime. The spread between the most comfortable and extreme settings is incredibly wide - like going from an S-class to a GT3 RS. I recently completed a 1,400 mile road trip in mine without any fatigue. It's also hydraulically linked on all four corners - this is similar to the "FRIC" technology that was banned in F1 this year, and it really helps control squat and dive under high rates of acceleration.
The transmission isn't as good as a PDK-S, but I find it more than up for the task. The 1-2 shift is a little delayed, but you learn to pull the paddle momentarily before you want the shift executed, and it does not become a problem. Under WOT, the shifts are, as the "seamless shift gearbox" title suggests, seamless. It is also very comfortable around town, like a good torque converter automatic. No drama and imperceptible shifts for the passenger.
The sound is wonderful. When you first hit the start button, you get an amazing bark, which no 911 can replicate. A GT3 sounds better at WOT, but the McLaren sounds better, more frequently, in typical day to day use. It sounds beautifully at low rpm and small throttle opening.
The frontal visibility is the best of any car I've sat in, due to the enormous windshield and dash that actually slopes down as it meets the windshield. The front spoiler has lots of front clearance so you don't sweat going off the paved surface and onto a dirt vista point.
It just looks, sounds, feels exotic, without taking anything from its usability, comfort, performance, and (at least so far) mechanical reliability. It feels special even sitting in it at a standstill.
What I think needs improvement:
Power does not really come on until 3k rpm. Sometimes when corners are exited at below 3k rpm, you momentarily bog down. Then again, a car like the GT3 has poor power at that engine speed, so it’s about a wash between the cars. I think if this upcoming McLaren utilizes smaller or VTG turbos, compared to the 12C, which will bring the boost threshold closer to 2k rpm, that it would be a flawless power plant.
The car has normal/sport/track settings for “handling” and “powertrain.” The electronic nannies can be intrusive as there is no way to adjust the dampers and traction control separately from each other - both are lumped into the “handling” mode. For example, if you are cruising in normal handling mode, and want to take a corner quickly, the amount of power available to you upon exit will be limited. On the other extreme, track handling mode is the only time where the car allows you to completely disengage all driver’s aids. The uselessness of this feature is that the McLaren’s track mode is even more extreme that a GT3’s sport damper mode, and completely unbearable on the street. The fix would be to have three *****: “dampers,” “traction control,” and “powertrain.” Generally speaking, sport mode is just on the money. Maybe the way the car is programmed is better for the perpetuation of the driver’s life, but it would be more fun with some modification.
It doesn't have the traction of a 911. This is physics at work - the engine isn't behind the rear wheels in a McLaren.
The headroom is limited for taller people, especially when fitted with the optional power/heated seats. My understanding is that the cabin will be larger in this new car, which is great news.
McLaren doesn't have a community and knowledge base as Porsche. Information such as track setup, maintenance, repairs, scan tools, etc isn't available. This should improve in time once the brand becomes more established, sells more cars, and gains more enthusiasts. For me, this is the biggest disappointment of my ownership. I'm a pretty hands on guy, I have build my own 4.0 engine for my GT3, there is no repair on a GT3 that I'm not tooled or prepared to perform, and I enjoy track days. With the McLaren, I feel a little helpless, and at the mercy of the dealer.
The dealer network needs to be expanded. I know that, you know that, McLaren knows that. It’s just a matter of time until this is executed. I’m fortunate to have not one, but three dealers in my backyard, so this does not affect me personally.
Bottom Line:
I'm anticipating the introduction of the new McLaren model more than the GT3 RS, and even I can't believe I'm saying that.
12-19-2014, 11:21 PM
#24
^
Interesting comments, thanks
I had never paid much attention to MCs but recently sat in a 650 spider and was really impressed
The door movement is pretty cool and cockpit feels the business. Looking forward to driving one soon - agree the lack of dealer network is key issue.
I would love if porsche took the paddle shifter design from the 650 steering wheel.
Interesting comments, thanks
I had never paid much attention to MCs but recently sat in a 650 spider and was really impressed
The door movement is pretty cool and cockpit feels the business. Looking forward to driving one soon - agree the lack of dealer network is key issue.
I would love if porsche took the paddle shifter design from the 650 steering wheel.
12-20-2014, 12:55 AM
#25
There's one here in Vancouver for Western Canada. Ok, so it's not super close to you, but it's a little bit closer!
12-20-2014, 02:00 AM
#26
Burning Brakes
12-20-2014, 07:11 AM
#27
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: West Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 363
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I’ll throw in my few cents after putting over 6k miles on my MP4-12C.
There are a handful of quality issues with the McLaren as mentioned above, but they are all minor in the grand scheme of things. One important thing to differentiate is that all of the quality issues with the McLaren are what I would consider to be “annoyances” and not “problems.”
None of the wheels have fallen off, no engines have failed or caught fire, none of the cam bolts have backed out, clutches grenade, thermostats failed, glued coolant fittings popped out, bronze LSD clutch discs failed, etc.
The common issues with the 12C are: haze buildup in the front headlights, condensation buildup in the taillights, turn signal switch failure, weather stripping becoming unglued, infotainment unit bugs (which have largely been fixed with the updated unit). It is only a compliment to the car that these are the most serious issues faced!
What McLaren has achieved with the MP4-12C, as their first mass production vehicle, is nothing short of astounding.
On to how it drives:
The engine is like a turbocharged GT3. It's what the old GT2 wishes it was. The power delivery is brutal and the torque just builds and builds all the way to the 8500 rpm redline. Not like the disappointing output of a turbocharged Porsche which gives you a huge rush of torque at low rpm but doesn't motivate you to rev.
The suspension is sublime. The spread between the most comfortable and extreme settings is incredibly wide - like going from an S-class to a GT3 RS. I recently completed a 1,400 mile road trip in mine without any fatigue. It's also hydraulically linked on all four corners - this is similar to the "FRIC" technology that was banned in F1 this year, and it really helps control squat and dive under high rates of acceleration.
The transmission isn't as good as a PDK-S, but I find it more than up for the task. The 1-2 shift is a little delayed, but you learn to pull the paddle momentarily before you want the shift executed, and it does not become a problem. Under WOT, the shifts are, as the "seamless shift gearbox" title suggests, seamless. It is also very comfortable around town, like a good torque converter automatic. No drama and imperceptible shifts for the passenger.
The sound is wonderful. When you first hit the start button, you get an amazing bark, which no 911 can replicate. A GT3 sounds better at WOT, but the McLaren sounds better, more frequently, in typical day to day use. It sounds beautifully at low rpm and small throttle opening.
The frontal visibility is the best of any car I've sat in, due to the enormous windshield and dash that actually slopes down as it meets the windshield. The front spoiler has lots of front clearance so you don't sweat going off the paved surface and onto a dirt vista point.
It just looks, sounds, feels exotic, without taking anything from its usability, comfort, performance, and (at least so far) mechanical reliability. It feels special even sitting in it at a standstill.
What I think needs improvement:
Power does not really come on until 3k rpm. Sometimes when corners are exited at below 3k rpm, you momentarily bog down. Then again, a car like the GT3 has poor power at that engine speed, so it’s about a wash between the cars. I think if this upcoming McLaren utilizes smaller or VTG turbos, compared to the 12C, which will bring the boost threshold closer to 2k rpm, that it would be a flawless power plant.
The car has normal/sport/track settings for “handling” and “powertrain.” The electronic nannies can be intrusive as there is no way to adjust the dampers and traction control separately from each other - both are lumped into the “handling” mode. For example, if you are cruising in normal handling mode, and want to take a corner quickly, the amount of power available to you upon exit will be limited. On the other extreme, track handling mode is the only time where the car allows you to completely disengage all driver’s aids. The uselessness of this feature is that the McLaren’s track mode is even more extreme that a GT3’s sport damper mode, and completely unbearable on the street. The fix would be to have three *****: “dampers,” “traction control,” and “powertrain.” Generally speaking, sport mode is just on the money. Maybe the way the car is programmed is better for the perpetuation of the driver’s life, but it would be more fun with some modification.
It doesn't have the traction of a 911. This is physics at work - the engine isn't behind the rear wheels in a McLaren.
The headroom is limited for taller people, especially when fitted with the optional power/heated seats. My understanding is that the cabin will be larger in this new car, which is great news.
McLaren doesn't have a community and knowledge base as Porsche. Information such as track setup, maintenance, repairs, scan tools, etc isn't available. This should improve in time once the brand becomes more established, sells more cars, and gains more enthusiasts. For me, this is the biggest disappointment of my ownership. I'm a pretty hands on guy, I have build my own 4.0 engine for my GT3, there is no repair on a GT3 that I'm not tooled or prepared to perform, and I enjoy track days. With the McLaren, I feel a little helpless, and at the mercy of the dealer.
The dealer network needs to be expanded. I know that, you know that, McLaren knows that. It’s just a matter of time until this is executed. I’m fortunate to have not one, but three dealers in my backyard, so this does not affect me personally.
Bottom Line:
I'm anticipating the introduction of the new McLaren model more than the GT3 RS, and even I can't believe I'm saying that.
There are a handful of quality issues with the McLaren as mentioned above, but they are all minor in the grand scheme of things. One important thing to differentiate is that all of the quality issues with the McLaren are what I would consider to be “annoyances” and not “problems.”
None of the wheels have fallen off, no engines have failed or caught fire, none of the cam bolts have backed out, clutches grenade, thermostats failed, glued coolant fittings popped out, bronze LSD clutch discs failed, etc.
The common issues with the 12C are: haze buildup in the front headlights, condensation buildup in the taillights, turn signal switch failure, weather stripping becoming unglued, infotainment unit bugs (which have largely been fixed with the updated unit). It is only a compliment to the car that these are the most serious issues faced!
What McLaren has achieved with the MP4-12C, as their first mass production vehicle, is nothing short of astounding.
On to how it drives:
The engine is like a turbocharged GT3. It's what the old GT2 wishes it was. The power delivery is brutal and the torque just builds and builds all the way to the 8500 rpm redline. Not like the disappointing output of a turbocharged Porsche which gives you a huge rush of torque at low rpm but doesn't motivate you to rev.
The suspension is sublime. The spread between the most comfortable and extreme settings is incredibly wide - like going from an S-class to a GT3 RS. I recently completed a 1,400 mile road trip in mine without any fatigue. It's also hydraulically linked on all four corners - this is similar to the "FRIC" technology that was banned in F1 this year, and it really helps control squat and dive under high rates of acceleration.
The transmission isn't as good as a PDK-S, but I find it more than up for the task. The 1-2 shift is a little delayed, but you learn to pull the paddle momentarily before you want the shift executed, and it does not become a problem. Under WOT, the shifts are, as the "seamless shift gearbox" title suggests, seamless. It is also very comfortable around town, like a good torque converter automatic. No drama and imperceptible shifts for the passenger.
The sound is wonderful. When you first hit the start button, you get an amazing bark, which no 911 can replicate. A GT3 sounds better at WOT, but the McLaren sounds better, more frequently, in typical day to day use. It sounds beautifully at low rpm and small throttle opening.
The frontal visibility is the best of any car I've sat in, due to the enormous windshield and dash that actually slopes down as it meets the windshield. The front spoiler has lots of front clearance so you don't sweat going off the paved surface and onto a dirt vista point.
It just looks, sounds, feels exotic, without taking anything from its usability, comfort, performance, and (at least so far) mechanical reliability. It feels special even sitting in it at a standstill.
What I think needs improvement:
Power does not really come on until 3k rpm. Sometimes when corners are exited at below 3k rpm, you momentarily bog down. Then again, a car like the GT3 has poor power at that engine speed, so it’s about a wash between the cars. I think if this upcoming McLaren utilizes smaller or VTG turbos, compared to the 12C, which will bring the boost threshold closer to 2k rpm, that it would be a flawless power plant.
The car has normal/sport/track settings for “handling” and “powertrain.” The electronic nannies can be intrusive as there is no way to adjust the dampers and traction control separately from each other - both are lumped into the “handling” mode. For example, if you are cruising in normal handling mode, and want to take a corner quickly, the amount of power available to you upon exit will be limited. On the other extreme, track handling mode is the only time where the car allows you to completely disengage all driver’s aids. The uselessness of this feature is that the McLaren’s track mode is even more extreme that a GT3’s sport damper mode, and completely unbearable on the street. The fix would be to have three *****: “dampers,” “traction control,” and “powertrain.” Generally speaking, sport mode is just on the money. Maybe the way the car is programmed is better for the perpetuation of the driver’s life, but it would be more fun with some modification.
It doesn't have the traction of a 911. This is physics at work - the engine isn't behind the rear wheels in a McLaren.
The headroom is limited for taller people, especially when fitted with the optional power/heated seats. My understanding is that the cabin will be larger in this new car, which is great news.
McLaren doesn't have a community and knowledge base as Porsche. Information such as track setup, maintenance, repairs, scan tools, etc isn't available. This should improve in time once the brand becomes more established, sells more cars, and gains more enthusiasts. For me, this is the biggest disappointment of my ownership. I'm a pretty hands on guy, I have build my own 4.0 engine for my GT3, there is no repair on a GT3 that I'm not tooled or prepared to perform, and I enjoy track days. With the McLaren, I feel a little helpless, and at the mercy of the dealer.
The dealer network needs to be expanded. I know that, you know that, McLaren knows that. It’s just a matter of time until this is executed. I’m fortunate to have not one, but three dealers in my backyard, so this does not affect me personally.
Bottom Line:
I'm anticipating the introduction of the new McLaren model more than the GT3 RS, and even I can't believe I'm saying that.
By the way, Jay Leno can have whatever he likes and has said multiple times McLaren is his favorite car manufacturer in the world. That it saying something!
12-20-2014, 07:44 AM
#28
Race Director
I will certainly be looking forward for this car when all the data is released. I am a sports car fan, of all models, so I will being looking forward to this. Will I buy it??? Well, it will be tough to get me to give up my Gt3. Plus, I sincerely think the 991 GT3 is an absolutely stunning looking Porsche. For all those that just think it is a C2S with a wing I completely disagree. I think it is one of the best looking Porsche models right now. It is a pleasure just looking at it in my garage. I used to think the Audi R8 V10 Spyder I had was stunning but after a couple months in my garage it lost its glamour quite quickly.
12-20-2014, 10:59 AM
#29
Nordschleife Master
To my knowledge they are a full service dealer, owned by Pfaff in Toronto who also owns the Porsche dealership where I bought my 3 Porsche's. My SA handles both the McLaren and Porsche model line. The dealerships are next to each other.
12-20-2014, 01:56 PM
#30
Yes, seems to be full service (I don't have direct customer experience with them). They are trying to cater to Albertans (and the rest of the prairies) rather than come across as a local dealership for in town customers only.
http://mclarenvancouver.ca/about_us/Outoftownvan.html
http://mclarenvancouver.ca/about_us/Outoftownvan.html
