How common are crashes at the track?
10-31-2014, 12:59 PM
#61
Banned
From anecdotal evidence, I would agree that the DE statistics is somewhere in the range of 1 crash (not necessarily total) in 50-100 days. Higher for racing.
Mooty is right. If you do this long enough, the statistics will catch up with you sooner or later. So only track/race a car you are comfortable leaving behind or write a check for without a second thought. There's a reason why I will not be tracking a 991 RS any time soon.
IMO, the best way to reduce the risk of crashing (spinning and going off) is by investing in a car control clinic with one of the racing schools, doing some autocross on slippery tires, experimenting with safe corners (with lot of run-off) on slippery tires, or going to a wet skidpad -- all of this towards learning how to find and safely straddle the limit of available grip on the four contact patches.
This may go against commonly accepted wisdom but, IMO, playing it safe and trying to never go above 7-8/10ths of available grip is not a good recipe for crash avoidance. Circumstances will eventually put you above 9/10ths against your will and you will crash. Best to learn how to straddle 10/10ths safely and consistently to minimize the chances of being caught off guard.
The problem with cars like the modern GT3's is that 10/10ths is so fast/high out there that only a small minority will be willing (or able) to approach it, much less feel comfortable straddling it. The fact that most of them come with nannies to which drivers get accustomed is not helping either.
Just my $0.02
Mooty is right. If you do this long enough, the statistics will catch up with you sooner or later. So only track/race a car you are comfortable leaving behind or write a check for without a second thought. There's a reason why I will not be tracking a 991 RS any time soon.
IMO, the best way to reduce the risk of crashing (spinning and going off) is by investing in a car control clinic with one of the racing schools, doing some autocross on slippery tires, experimenting with safe corners (with lot of run-off) on slippery tires, or going to a wet skidpad -- all of this towards learning how to find and safely straddle the limit of available grip on the four contact patches.
This may go against commonly accepted wisdom but, IMO, playing it safe and trying to never go above 7-8/10ths of available grip is not a good recipe for crash avoidance. Circumstances will eventually put you above 9/10ths against your will and you will crash. Best to learn how to straddle 10/10ths safely and consistently to minimize the chances of being caught off guard.
The problem with cars like the modern GT3's is that 10/10ths is so fast/high out there that only a small minority will be willing (or able) to approach it, much less feel comfortable straddling it. The fact that most of them come with nannies to which drivers get accustomed is not helping either.
Just my $0.02
10-31-2014, 01:10 PM
#62
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Join Date: May 2012
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Yes, never zero risk on the track. Or in the paddock. Or on the road. Or in life ...
10-31-2014, 01:17 PM
#63
You can never eliminate risk, only minimize it but if you go to the track with common sense and a clear purpose of having fun and going home safely, the probability of crashing goes down a lot.
10-31-2014, 01:18 PM
#64
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Join Date: May 2012
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From anecdotal evidence, I would agree that the DE statistics is somewhere in the range of 1 crash (not necessarily total) in 50-100 days. Higher for racing.
Mooty is right. If you do this long enough, the statistics will catch up with you sooner or later. So only track/race a car you are comfortable leaving behind or write a check for without a second thought. There's a reason why I will not be tracking a 991 RS any time soon.
IMO, the best way to reduce the risk of crashing (spinning and going off) is by investing in a car control clinic with one of the racing schools, doing some autocross on slippery tires, experimenting with safe corners (with lot of run-off) on slippery tires, or going to a wet skidpad -- all of this towards learning how to find and safely straddle the limit of available grip on the four contact patches.
This may go against commonly accepted wisdom but, IMO, playing it safe and trying to never go above 7-8/10ths of available grip is not a good recipe for crash avoidance. Circumstances will eventually put you above 9/10ths against your will and you will crash. Best to learn how to straddle 10/10ths safely and consistently to minimize the chances of being caught off guard.
The problem with cars like the modern GT3's is that 10/10ths is so fast/high out there that only a small minority will be willing (or able) to approach it, much less feel comfortable straddling it. The fact that most of them come with nannies to which drivers get accustomed is not helping either.
Just my $0.02
Mooty is right. If you do this long enough, the statistics will catch up with you sooner or later. So only track/race a car you are comfortable leaving behind or write a check for without a second thought. There's a reason why I will not be tracking a 991 RS any time soon.
IMO, the best way to reduce the risk of crashing (spinning and going off) is by investing in a car control clinic with one of the racing schools, doing some autocross on slippery tires, experimenting with safe corners (with lot of run-off) on slippery tires, or going to a wet skidpad -- all of this towards learning how to find and safely straddle the limit of available grip on the four contact patches.
This may go against commonly accepted wisdom but, IMO, playing it safe and trying to never go above 7-8/10ths of available grip is not a good recipe for crash avoidance. Circumstances will eventually put you above 9/10ths against your will and you will crash. Best to learn how to straddle 10/10ths safely and consistently to minimize the chances of being caught off guard.
The problem with cars like the modern GT3's is that 10/10ths is so fast/high out there that only a small minority will be willing (or able) to approach it, much less feel comfortable straddling it. The fact that most of them come with nannies to which drivers get accustomed is not helping either.
Just my $0.02
IMO, good car control is vital for driving on the track at meaningful speeds, and I'm pretty sure it's prevented some of my more dramatic moments on track from turning into crashes. I'd add karting to the list of reasonably safe ways to develop car control (safety of course depends on the kinds of karts and tracks).
Only way I can track the 991 GT3 is to get track insurance. Otherwise, the car is more expensive than I can live with writing off. I do wonder if the car is 'too fast' for a car without racing safety equipment, yet it won't be much fun if I'm not leaning on it reasonably hard. I guess time will tell if it's the right car for me.
10-31-2014, 01:40 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
I think the 1 accident per day # is low. Unless you are at the wide open CA tracks. That being said it is almost all driver error and it isn't the 1st mistake that gets you it is how you react to that mistake. My VIR climbing SSS incident started long before the entry as I was frustrated with traffic, then didnt bleed enough speed after entry and tried to save it instead of driving off straight and re-entering at South Bend.
As Mooty stated if you can't afford to leave it at the track don't go. My main track car is less than $20k all in now and fully caged. I also love the BS that I only drive at 80%. LOL if you aren't working on getting faster and better why go to the track. Cars and Coffee might be a better fit for you.
Peter
As Mooty stated if you can't afford to leave it at the track don't go. My main track car is less than $20k all in now and fully caged. I also love the BS that I only drive at 80%. LOL if you aren't working on getting faster and better why go to the track. Cars and Coffee might be a better fit for you.
Peter
10-31-2014, 01:45 PM
#66
Banned
A good way to discern these statistics is by looking at the price of track insurance. Someone with a current track insurance can confirm but IIRC* $300-400/day buys (low deductible) coverage on about $40-50k agreed value. So daily coverage costs about 0.8% of the covered value. Subtract from that an approx 20% margin for safety and profit and the break-even cost ends up being around 0.7% of the insured value yielding a chance of total loss of about 0.7/100 = 1/142 (so 1 total crash in 142 days). If someone can provide actual numbers, and an estimate for the profit margin, we could get a more precise number.
*I'm self-insuring which may change if 6gt3's keep going up in price
*I'm self-insuring which may change if 6gt3's keep going up in price
10-31-2014, 02:23 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
I think the 1 accident per day # is low. Unless you are at the wide open CA tracks. That being said it is almost all driver error and it isn't the 1st mistake that gets you it is how you react to that mistake. My VIR climbing SSS incident started long before the entry as I was frustrated with traffic, then didnt bleed enough speed after entry and tried to save it instead of driving off straight and re-entering at South Bend.
As Mooty stated if you can't afford to leave it at the track don't go. My main track car is less than $20k all in now and fully caged. I also love the BS that I only drive at 80%. LOL if you aren't working on getting faster and better why go to the track. Cars and Coffee might be a better fit for you.
Peter
As Mooty stated if you can't afford to leave it at the track don't go. My main track car is less than $20k all in now and fully caged. I also love the BS that I only drive at 80%. LOL if you aren't working on getting faster and better why go to the track. Cars and Coffee might be a better fit for you.
Peter
10-31-2014, 02:25 PM
#68
Nordschleife Master
Drive slow like I do. Wave everyone passed and enjoy. Adjust your seat to the lowest position,so you're part of the chassis(kind of...). You'll start feeling when the car is at the brink of adhesion. Remain calm and be ready if it does happen and correct.
Remember,you're there for fun,you're not racing...
Remember,you're there for fun,you're not racing...
10-31-2014, 04:34 PM
#70
Scary numbers. I've only tracked a few times and haven't seen any serious crashes. Do most tracks flag people in when they go off? Trying too hard not to go off could be worse than just riding it out but I think you need to learn and practice that as others have mentioned. A bit like practicing not to catch a knife when you drop it.
Maybe I should get one of these.
http://www.nissan.ca/micra-cup/en/
Maybe I should get one of these.
http://www.nissan.ca/micra-cup/en/
10-31-2014, 04:40 PM
#71
Burning Brakes
It seems like most accidents happen because of two situations.
First, over correcting or trying to "save it."
Second, getting frustrated with traffic, and then driving aggressively after passing a group. I can't tell you how many times I've seen drivers getting annoyed at a slower group of cars, then proceeding to run-off the track after passing the group aggressively.
The 1 crash per event seems a little on the high side. At the two tracks I frequented in Michigan (Gingerman and Grattan) I rarely saw any accidents. And I was there a lot with the Subaru club, and we all know how WRX boy racers drive.
When I'm on the track my goal is to just have fun. Some laps are slow, some are fast. Find a "safe" section or turn with plenty of run-off to practice pushing the cars to it's limits. I'm very conservative in high speed sections and areas with no run-off.
Just remember you are lucky enough to be driving a Porsche on a race track.
First, over correcting or trying to "save it."
Second, getting frustrated with traffic, and then driving aggressively after passing a group. I can't tell you how many times I've seen drivers getting annoyed at a slower group of cars, then proceeding to run-off the track after passing the group aggressively.
The 1 crash per event seems a little on the high side. At the two tracks I frequented in Michigan (Gingerman and Grattan) I rarely saw any accidents. And I was there a lot with the Subaru club, and we all know how WRX boy racers drive.
When I'm on the track my goal is to just have fun. Some laps are slow, some are fast. Find a "safe" section or turn with plenty of run-off to practice pushing the cars to it's limits. I'm very conservative in high speed sections and areas with no run-off.
Just remember you are lucky enough to be driving a Porsche on a race track.
10-31-2014, 04:48 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I've never timed a single lap. Probably never will.
The presumption that if you aren't trying to shave time off your laps and get faster, you shouldn't be at the track is the exact mentality that gets casual / amateur drivers such as myself in Trouble. Some people just want to go out and beat on the car a little, push it to 80% and not worry about a few seconds of lap time.
Different for everyone and while it might not make sense to you, I am certain it does to other people who go to the track.
10-31-2014, 05:36 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
10-31-2014, 05:43 PM
#75
A good way to discern these statistics is by looking at the price of track insurance. Someone with a current track insurance can confirm but IIRC* $300-400/day buys (low deductible) coverage on about $40-50k agreed value. So daily coverage costs about 0.8% of the covered value. Subtract from that an approx 20% margin for safety and profit and the break-even cost ends up being around 0.7% of the insured value yielding a chance of total loss of about 0.7/100 = 1/142 (so 1 total crash in 142 days). If someone can provide actual numbers, and an estimate for the profit margin, we could get a more precise number.
*I'm self-insuring which may change if 6gt3's keep going up in price
*I'm self-insuring which may change if 6gt3's keep going up in price
