hf1

Same here.

Carrera GT

For anyone interested in further compilation of research, check for older posts by savyboy about all these devices, including one that tested above the HANS (at least on sideways movement) and worked with a three-point belt.
Someone also once posted an interior picture of a dent on the A pillar of a cage tubing, on the passenger side ... made by the helmet of the driver in a full harness ... somehow the harness (and his neck) stretched two or three feet during the crash ...

* yes, the harness is meant to stretch one time, no I don't think the neck is meant to stretch other than in the "hang 'em high" situation ...

Macca

Good on you mate. I don't want to "make a manifold" out of this subject so suggest anyone who is interested in a long winded debate on this start a seperate thread. I'm sure plenty of HANs owners will defend their investment and likewise Necksgen etc etc. I'm actually interested in information from doctors physio and pro racers and others in the field who may have real life experience or professional opinion to add....

Let's move on before this topic ruins the thread

Anyone got any new track vidos yet?

I do - it's a bit of a fun one too my GT3 against a myriad of porkers in our group from 2.7rs to 997.2 gt3- it's on YouTube now but will post here as soon as I get off this iPhone!

Manifold

Couple things:

- I'm confused about the first bolded part. Are you saying HANS had benefit with a 3-pt belt? If so, I'd like to see that data. Doesn't make sense to me, but as I said before, empirical data trumps intuition with this stuff.

- To reduce movement, it's very important that the belts are tight. Not snug. Tight. As in "I can't get them any tighter." This includes the lap belts, which many don't make tight enough, whereas a goal is to carry as much force with the pelvis (which is strong) as possible, remaining force then going through the shoulder belts.

Carrera GT

I didn't write HANS works with 3-pt.
If you can cinch harness belts to the point where they can't be any tighter, something's wrong with the setup or technique.

Manifold

Best info comes from researchers specializing in this topic. Some of them are docs, most are biomechanical/biomedical engineers. Expertise of pro racers tends to be in driving and racing, not safety equipment.

Manifold

Would appreciate clarification on what you meant with the 3-pts.

Yes, belts can always be tighter, I mean do your best to cinch them, put some elbow grease into it. I usually cinch in the paddock, again in grid, maybe again on track if I have a long straight with no traffic around.

Macca

GTCarrera was talking about a full torso hybrid that provided more lateral than Hans and also works with 3 pt. Simpson is probably the unit inferred.....

I agree docs, physio, orthopaedic and bio-mechanical engineers all best to talk here.

Probably bets to leave the subject alone now - tonnes of good information on the web for those interested google "necksgen vs Hans" or similar and see.

Manifold

I've seen the literature produced by Simpson for the R3. Same situation. SFI 38.1 certified with 6-pts. They imply it works with 3-pt, but don't provide any test data or even confirm that they have such data. If they could provide data, huge marketing benefit wrt the many drivers and instructors in cars with only 3-pts. So where's the data?

orthojoe

Guys, while the confidence in my profession (orthopaedic surgery) is humbling and appreciated, I feel you should know that I am not aware of any peer reviewed literature in the Orthopaedic and Spine journals that address proper use of racing safety equipment. Any recommendations provided by my peers is based on our knowledge of known injury patterns and related mechanism of injury. Any thoughts on what the best racing safety equipment is purely an opinion, and not based on any solid research data. We know how the injuries occur and how to treat, but which is the best device and setup to prevent it? Not so much. I would value the opinion of a biomechanics engineer who designs these sort of devices the most.

Macca

Ok. Back to regular programming. Embarrassingly after all the talk on safety gear here I submit for your entertainment some recent laps in my 991 GT3 with friends on a cold and occasionally showery day at one of the oldest, shortest and most Southern North Island tracks in New Zealand. This track of course is old but has some real history with folk like Amon and Hulme and McLaren all having raced there extensively after the F1 Tasman series in the 1970s.

I went out to have some fun that day after a very wet and stormy track session at another track further north the day before (where we lost 2 cars from our group as total losses!). Ill post some footage of a torrential downpour in the 991 Gt3 too when I have bandwidth (island internet here sorry) and yopu can see what the 991 GT3 is like on the back straight at 200kmph when teh wipers wont even keep up with the rain and I can hardly see what Im doing! Not sure about USA and Europe but we seem to have alot of wet track days Downunder!

P.S. I wore my full face helmet with Necksgen on the wet trackday but when leaving base at 6am for the 250 kmpo fast drive to the Southern track you see here (driver debrief 9am!) discovered I had packed my open faced helment which currently does not have the necksgen posts fitted. 5 hail marys for me I know. The neck restraint is new for me this race weekend so I promise to get a second set of posts for my summer helmet! You will be pleased to know I had my fire proof socks and undies on and my 3 layer SFI/FIA approved race suit as always!!! :-)

P.S. This is not a "fast lap" video just some fun with a variety of Pcars in our private track club RSG (Rennsport Gruppe).

A 997.1 Cup car can do a qualifying lap in 1.12 or under here and the 991 GT3 is probably good for a 1.15 or slightly under (the track doesn't give big benefits to heavier more powerful cars and favours lighter nimbler machines really as its was designed in the 1960s). My best for the day was 1.18.18 with another 991 GT3 putting in a 1.17.xx - there was always some time on the table as the temps and track surface wasnt the best (10-14c) and its sprinkled with rain a few times during the day making the sweeper almost impossible to get decent traction on. My 993 in track guise is only 1 second slower than I was in 991 GT3 but this is probably more becuase Im still having to learn the point at which to remove foot from throttle and the braking and turn in points in the GT3 which are remarkably different from the older car.

I drove this lap in Sport Auto but found it frustrating in teh haripin at the end of teh front straight - Id lift to coast a bit (usually spend teh tie heel & Toe from 5th to 3rd in the 993 here starting light on brakes and progressively firmer) but as soon as I lift in sport auto it changes me down a gear and so I decelerate too quickly. A different style is needed here but actually I think I will drive the car manual more often as I also find the shirt shifts on teh up shift catch me out - Im sued to running each gear to almost redline in the 993 to make power and thus have timed my shift points on track based around that car/engine. As you will see in the video there are places the 991 GT3 short shifts on the upshift. there is plenty to learn regards driving this car quickly. I was no faster on this track than an experienced 997.2 Gt3 driver on Supersports so I should say there is 2 seconds on the table once teh characteristics of the car are better understood and the gear selection strategy is better fettled. My single biggest challenge in this car over my 993 is this: "The 991 GT3 carries FAR more corner speed than prior platforms". By that I mean Im over braking into tight or moderate corners thinking its a 993/996/997 type car - its no torque miester just a typical atmo 911 so carrying speed through corners is much faster than hard braking then getting on the gas from a lower speed. Watching the other 991 GT3 driver who is a long time PDK owner and has much track time in PDK and more recently the 991 GT3 I can see he is touching the brakes hard and sharp very late to scrub of a bit of speed quickly then partial throttle around the moderate corners keeping teh apex speed fairly high then onto the gas. This technique is saving alot of time over my older skool 911 technique. the car is very balances and planted and has a very capable chassis so can take the additional speed....everyone said 991 GT3 will be easy to drive fast but I disagree - its still a very thrilling drive but to truly be significantly quicker than previous gen Gt3 RS etc you need to develop new technique and polish it. Still plenty of learning to go and given I dont live in the country the car resides only very brief opportunities for me to increase track seat time in the GT3 but Im looking forward to the learning....

Enjoy. Please note Air con was left on the whole weekend, windows up, sound was SW bypass, Sport Exhaust was on along with sport suspension and Sport auto, ESC+TC were left on and never intervened on this track day (although were working busy on wet track day especially during the 180 I performed in the interests of better knowing the cars limits - not!).

Manifold

Many papers have been published by SAE in their journals. Authors include the late Dr. John Melvin, and engineers who work on this stuff full time for NASCAR (yes, redneck, but they're currently at the forefront on safety), among others. Here's an excellent resource for those who want to go beyond internet opinions and get real info: http://books.sae.org/pt-160/.

rubbaman

^^ Nice Video Macca! Nice driving too. Did you pass the baby blue 964 RS?
Thanks for showing the sport auto mode too.

orthojoe

Yup. Engineering is where the real info is at. The medical journals don't have the kind of race safety info you guys are looking for. We (surgeons) don't read SAE journals.

Macca

Rubbaman. We started the last lap at the very end of that clip. Id like to tell you I over hauled him in the last lap but I would be lying. He's a better and much more experienced driver than me (multi time past winner of the Porsche Series here in NZ). The 964 is an RSR replica with 993 VR engine making 300 bhp and it weights 1200 kg with composite guards. Its a recently finished project and still being tuned. Very quick when driven well but ultimately probably good for similar times to my 993 (early 1.19) vs the 991 GT3 maybe 1.15. My 991 GT3 driving had much to be desired. Second time I have been to that track and first time in GT3 so my lines were not the best and I was not committing fully. The day before had been a shocker for most of us (Ive attached a few screen shots while I wait to find time for clipping the footage) and I had been running two cars back to back in the rain! I vowelled Id only take the GT3 south and would make an enjoyable day of it rather than pushing on.

P.S. We lost 4 cars this season in the rain - big off's big bills and big damage - but no one hurt luckily. 1 x 997.2 GT3, 2 x 964 and 1 x 993.

On RL I see mainly dry summer laps. Some I talk to will only every drive a track in the dry. Unfortunately weather is less predicable here and the tracks are easier to book and cheaper in winter so we have to expect cold and wet days on the track. Some days like the wet one below are sold cold couldnt get more than 4 psi additional pressure when hot in the tyres!

P.S. Im not hard assed - look at my mate in the Lotus 7 ha ha - the guy in the Testarossa has big ***** too ;-). We are Kiwis mate. Doing it with Vegemite Sandwich ;-)

please enjoy more than i did lol!