GT3 + turbo = silly??
06-28-2014, 03:52 PM
#1
GT3 + turbo = silly??
Just for discussions sake I wonder if adding forced induction to a GT3 would give you the best of both worlds......or is this just silly speculation???
What negatives do you think would be encountered??
What negatives do you think would be encountered??
06-28-2014, 04:09 PM
#2
You might encounter the engine grenading 
In all seriousness though, the engine is far too high strung to add FI to it. You'd really need to swap to a Turbo-based engine, which means you are basically driving a GT2. The costs of doing an engine swap like this would be way too high - you'd get better mileage starting with a Turbo and doing some serious suspension work, I think.
In all seriousness though, the engine is far too high strung to add FI to it. You'd really need to swap to a Turbo-based engine, which means you are basically driving a GT2. The costs of doing an engine swap like this would be way too high - you'd get better mileage starting with a Turbo and doing some serious suspension work, I think.
06-28-2014, 04:57 PM
#3
Race Director
What reinforcements are made to engine parts in order to mKe them suitable for a turbo? Is the engine in the turbo the same as one in a regular carerra s?
06-28-2014, 06:11 PM
#5
If the goal was to build a dyno queen or top speed monster who's only job was to deliver a huge headline power number, then GT3 motor might make an interesting but very expensive starting point. For every other application it's probably a bad idea.
For a normally aspirated motor of a given size, increasing RPM is really the only way to make more power. That's what the GT3 motor does, spinning to 9000 rpm. For a forced induction motor, however, there are two options: increase rpm or increase boost. Increasing boost allows nearly unlimited power potential: ignoring turbo lag you're mainly limited by the strength of your components and the ability of the motor, particularly the head, to deal with heat. It also gives more mid-range punch, so it's generally preferred when practical.
Contrast two paths to making a 1000 hp 911 motor: Path 1 is the traditional turbo path, using less revs and more boost. Call it 6500 rpm and 2 bar of boost. Path 2 uses high revs, 8500 and less boost, 2 bar. Of these two paths, the first will have less lag (smaller intake ports, a less aggressive cam, and a slightly smaller turbo all contribute) and more mid-range power. It also might have fewer heat thermal issues in the head due to the smaller ports. Path 2 puts lower load on the bottom end. Thus assuming you build the motor strong enough, path 1 would be better, and at lower power levels the advantage for path 1 generally grows.
If you want to make significantly more than 1000 hp from a 911 motor, on the other hand, it starts to get very difficult to build the bottom end to handle the stress, and around this point starting with a GT3 motor might start to make sense: ~8500 rpm at ~2 bar of boost might approach 1500 hp. The result would require a huge turbo and thus have a huge amount of lag, making it largely undriveable. It would also be very difficult to keep the head cool enough, meaning it could probably only maintain power for short bursts. Finally it would require nearly complete re-engineering: new low compression pistons, rods, valves, probably crank, the block would be questionable, new engine management, etc, not to mention the rest of the car. However at these extreme levels it's one of the only options available.
In nearly every case, however, it's not something you'd want to do, but if you have money to burn...
For a normally aspirated motor of a given size, increasing RPM is really the only way to make more power. That's what the GT3 motor does, spinning to 9000 rpm. For a forced induction motor, however, there are two options: increase rpm or increase boost. Increasing boost allows nearly unlimited power potential: ignoring turbo lag you're mainly limited by the strength of your components and the ability of the motor, particularly the head, to deal with heat. It also gives more mid-range punch, so it's generally preferred when practical.
Contrast two paths to making a 1000 hp 911 motor: Path 1 is the traditional turbo path, using less revs and more boost. Call it 6500 rpm and 2 bar of boost. Path 2 uses high revs, 8500 and less boost, 2 bar. Of these two paths, the first will have less lag (smaller intake ports, a less aggressive cam, and a slightly smaller turbo all contribute) and more mid-range power. It also might have fewer heat thermal issues in the head due to the smaller ports. Path 2 puts lower load on the bottom end. Thus assuming you build the motor strong enough, path 1 would be better, and at lower power levels the advantage for path 1 generally grows.
If you want to make significantly more than 1000 hp from a 911 motor, on the other hand, it starts to get very difficult to build the bottom end to handle the stress, and around this point starting with a GT3 motor might start to make sense: ~8500 rpm at ~2 bar of boost might approach 1500 hp. The result would require a huge turbo and thus have a huge amount of lag, making it largely undriveable. It would also be very difficult to keep the head cool enough, meaning it could probably only maintain power for short bursts. Finally it would require nearly complete re-engineering: new low compression pistons, rods, valves, probably crank, the block would be questionable, new engine management, etc, not to mention the rest of the car. However at these extreme levels it's one of the only options available.
In nearly every case, however, it's not something you'd want to do, but if you have money to burn...
06-28-2014, 07:31 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
different compression, diff setup.
buy a GT2 if thats what you want, or buy a TT and boost it more. i had EVoMS 997TT (670hp at wheels), then went to a 997.2 GT3 (stock 435hp at crank)
the GT3 is more fun, the TT is fast as *****. but there is a big line between what you can have and what you can use... unless you have to show off between every light and race every ferrari driver.
buy a GT2 if thats what you want, or buy a TT and boost it more. i had EVoMS 997TT (670hp at wheels), then went to a 997.2 GT3 (stock 435hp at crank)
the GT3 is more fun, the TT is fast as *****. but there is a big line between what you can have and what you can use... unless you have to show off between every light and race every ferrari driver.
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06-30-2014, 12:41 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Many tuners are building turbo mezgers that rev like a GT3. 900hp on sane levels of boost. It's the cats meow.
You guys talk like it's two different engines. They're all mezgers. They're all modular. Compression ratios? Change the pistons. There's nothing you can't do.
You guys talk like it's two different engines. They're all mezgers. They're all modular. Compression ratios? Change the pistons. There's nothing you can't do.
06-30-2014, 01:21 PM
#11
Not Mezger any more, as mentioned. Also on the new 991 engine the head is entirely different, using finger-follower cams to achieve high revs. Using this head design, with the corresponding large ports, etc, makes for two very different end points depending on which base you start from.