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997.2 GT3 RS vs 991 GT3

 
Old 06-01-2014, 06:57 PM
  #31  
Mike in CA
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Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
You are overlooking the the most important element - the engine!

The 997 engine is still raced to this day - yesterday in the TUSC race at Detroit, for example. Or in less than 2 weeks at Le Mans.

The 9A1 engine family has been available for public consumption since the 9X7.2 facelift for the 2009 model year, and obviously in development for longer. Porsche has had ample opportunity to race the engine, to prove the engine. Yet Porsche has never raced any variant of the 9A1 engine. Ever. Not even in their own Super Cup spec series. Absent the engine fires and recall, this is still extraordinarily damning; when you consider the events that have transpired since mid-February, it's comical. I prefer manual transmissions, but I'd rather a (hypothetical) Mezger engine mated to a PDK transmission over a (hypothetical) 991 GT3 engine mated to a stick.
The previous 9A1 iteration that intro'd in 2009 with it's integrated dry sump, and lower rev limit and HP was never advertised as a motorsport engine. So to be fair, the first 9A1 developed for that purpose, at least in theory, was the one in the 991 GT3 in 2013.

It's true that this latest version hasn't been raced, although again to be fair, it wasn't built in sufficient numbers for homologation for this season, the Mezger had already been homologated until 2015, and changing rules for the various series where it might be used are not necessarily conducive to investing in further development for a new flat 6 race motor. Not to mention that Porsche is already focused heavily on the 919 for this year. The point is that the decision to race or not race this latest 9A1 was/is complicated and not necessarily related only to it's potential or the fact that some variation of it has been around for 5 years.

Everything we know about the 991 GT3 engine is that it was let down by failure of a single part, likely during installation, not by it's basic design. Besides, it's not as if no Mezger engine ever failed. It's great that the Mezger has a long racing history and I hope that some version of the 991 GT3 engine will be raced in the future. But the reasons why it will or won't be aren't as simple as saying that one engine is worthy and the other isn't.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:17 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
The previous 9A1 iteration that intro'd in 2009 with it's integrated dry sump, and lower rev limit and HP was never advertised as a motorsport engine. So to be fair, the first 9A1 developed for that purpose, at least in theory, was the one in the 991 GT3 in 2013.

It's true that this latest version hasn't been raced, although again to be fair, it wasn't built in sufficient numbers for homologation for this season, the Mezger had already been homologated until 2015, and changing rules for the various series where it might be used are not necessarily conducive to investing in further development for a new flat 6 race motor. Not to mention that Porsche is already focused heavily on the 919 for this year. The point is that the decision to race or not race this latest 9A1 was complicated and not necessarily related only to it's potential or the fact that some variation of it has been around for 5 years.

Everything we know about the 991 GT3 engine is that it was let down by failure of a single part, likely during installation, not by it's basic design. Besides, it's not as if no Mezger engine ever failed. It's great that the Mezger has a long racing history and I hope that some version of the 991 GT3 engine will be raced in the future. But the reasons why it will it or won't be aren't as simple as saying that one engine is worthy and the other isn't.
Until the M96 watercooled engine, all Porsche 911s had the "Motorsport" engine. It was a stroke of genius to keep the cars expensive but reduce the content that the consumers received by cutting corners with the powerplant (among other important items). It's akin to Rolex substituting a cheap chinese movement and telling customers to "shut up and take it" er... "shut up and drive."

I will concede that there are numerous factors related to the decision not to race the 991 GT3 engine: Limited resources, uncertain rules horizon, etc. However, there is no reason why the couldn't race the engine in the Supercup series; unless every engine failed, a Porsche would still be guaranteed to win...

By no means is the Mezger engine infallible; the key benefits of its longevity are that is issues are fairly well known and can be fixed or worked around. Porsche themselves struggled with this on the 991 GT3 engine.

It's obvious that we disagree on these points, and it's not like I don't have skin in the game either - once my suspicions about the weaknesses of the new GT3 engine were confirmed, I bought a 997 GT3.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:28 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
Until the M96 watercooled engine, all Porsche 911s had the "Motorsport" engine. It was a stroke of genius to keep the cars expensive but reduce the content that the consumers received by cutting corners with the powerplant (among other important items). It's akin to Rolex substituting a cheap chinese movement and telling customers to "shut up and take it" er... "shut up and drive."

I will concede that there are numerous factors related to the decision not to race the 991 GT3 engine: Limited resources, uncertain rules horizon, etc. However, there is no reason why the couldn't race the engine in the Supercup series; unless every engine failed, a Porsche would still be guaranteed to win...

By no means is the Mezger engine infallible; the key benefits of its longevity are that is issues are fairly well known and can be fixed or worked around. Porsche themselves struggled with this on the 991 GT3 engine.

It's obvious that we disagree on these points, and it's not like I don't have skin in the game either - once my suspicions about the weaknesses of the new GT3 engine were confirmed, I bought a 997 GT3.
I think we have common ground for discussion. The only comment that you make above that I would truly disagree with is regarding the "weaknesses" of the 991 GT3 engine being confirmed. In fact to the best of our knowledge we know of only one weakness, it was reportedly the result of installation tolerances that were too narrow, and it has almost certainly been resolved.
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:09 PM
  #34  
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So two engines caught on fire out of 785. All engines were/will be exchanged. These engines will be bullet proof no doubt. I would call the GT3 engine weak. Let's be realistic please
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:32 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Fadi1 View Post
So two engines caught on fire out of 785. All engines were/will be exchanged. These engines will be bullet proof no doubt. I would call the GT3 engine weak. Let's be realistic please
Unless you're on a witch hunt and the first batch of engines is your target, can't we just wait 6 to 9 more months before we decide to call the 991 GT3 engines weak?
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:44 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by rosenbergendo View Post
Would anyone in their right mind take a 991GT3 over a 4k mile 997.2 RS?? Seriously? I mean seriously?
the 991 gt3 looks waaaay better than the 997.

thats why.
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:58 PM
  #37  
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This thread is painful for me. A little over a year ago, I had a chance to pick up a beautiful 997.2 RS with something like 2K miles for about $112K. I chickened out and let it go. Haven't regretted many decisions more than that one.

Anyway, let's be reasonable here. The 991 GT3 and 997.2 RS are undeniably both awesome cars, with the choice between them coming down to priorities and preferences. Ideal would be to have both!
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:27 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Manifold View Post
This thread is painful for me. A little over a year ago, I had a chance to pick up a beautiful 997.2 RS with something like 2K miles for about $112K. I chickened out and let it go. Haven't regretted many decisions more than that one.

Anyway, let's be reasonable here. The 991 GT3 and 997.2 RS are undeniably both awesome cars, with the choice between them coming down to priorities and preferences. Ideal would be to have both!
I've had the 997 GT3. No. I'd not want to own both.
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:13 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by alpine-al View Post
Unless you're on a witch hunt and the first batch of engines is your target, can't we just wait 6 to 9 more months before we decide to call the 991 GT3 engines weak?
Correction I wouldn't call the engine weak
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:05 AM
  #40  
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I would. Coming from an engineering background and currently in the medical field I absolutely would. At minimum in its first iteration it was. With revision version 2 the jury is still out. None of this would have been an issue had this motor been run in Supercup for 2+ years. It was actually harder for Porsche to use the Metzger in the 991 Supercup than its intended motor (a 9A1 derivative) as the chassis was never really meant to accept this engine. . But extraordinarily Porsche decided to use the old motor. I wonder why?
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:57 AM
  #41  
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Life's a gamble and I made the decision to sell the RS.2 and go for the 991RS. In the end, it will be different and I had the 3.8 for four delightful years. I have an RS.1 that I will hang onto permanently which is perfectly adequate to address the manual tranny bug.
Not being a speculator on car values, I always assume that the car will be worth nothing or even written off, so any upside is nice, but not the reason to buy or keep. There will be endless ink on this subject until it shows up.
My hope is for an N/A car, and am perfectly happy with the reports on the version of the PDK. The manual shifts in the regular 991 have not been all that great by many accounts, so I would likely have gone PDK anyway. I have in idea how to compare a car that does not exist in public with the existing cars. As usual in Porsche circles they will each have their fierce adherents. Fair enough.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:26 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Fadi1 View Post
So two engines caught on fire out of 785. All engines were/will be exchanged. These engines will be bullet proof no doubt. I would call the GT3 engine weak. Let's be realistic please
I assume you meant 'you would not call the GT3 engine weak'. I wholeheartedly agree with that. As I mentioned in another thread, double digit numbers of 4.0 liter RS's blew up and had to have their engines replaced. That is out of 600 (est.) produced wordwide and after decades of R&D and racing.
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:41 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by 911dev View Post
I assume you meant 'you would not call the GT3 engine weak'. I wholeheartedly agree with that. As I mentioned in another thread, double digit numbers of 4.0 liter RS's blew up and had to have their engines replaced. That is out of 600 (est.) produced wordwide and after decades of R&D and racing.
+1
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:35 AM
  #44  
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OP here! Sorry for not jumping in until now. I was away for the weekend and haven't had a chance to reply. Thank you so much for the spirited discussion and feedback. Awesome points in favor of both the .2 rs and the 991 GT3. I have not driven either car yet so I am lacking in terms of first hand experience. However, given my intended use and capabilities as a driver here are my thoughts:

In favor of the 991 GT3: (1) latest and greatest technology, (2) can get the car optioned the way I would like it, (3) will be a new car that I can break in myself, (4) more compliant as a DD, and (5) performance will be well beyond my initial capabilities.

In favor of the .2 RS: (1) manual gearbox, (2) more connected feel, (3) acceptable as a DD but probably not as good as the 991, and (4) performance will be well beyond my initial capabilities.

As the 991 was my original choice, I think I am still heading in that direction. However, I may give the .2 rs a closer look. I have time and it certainly doesn't hurt.

Thanks again for the help!

Dave
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Old 06-02-2014, 12:23 PM
  #45  
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All this talk about the 997.2 GT3 dropping in price once the new car comes out is completely wrong in my opinion. The prices started to escalate as soon as people knew the 991 would be PDK only. That fact is unquestionable. I mean..you may see a slight tick down due to some trade-ins but it wont be that much at all. Demand for 997 GT3s is high, and there is nothing that will deter that other than a 991 with a Mezger and MT.

And no..I'm not biased. I love the 991 and want it so hard. PDK or not. Haha
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