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Old 04-16-2014, 04:11 PM
  #31  
SamFromTX
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Originally Posted by Jimmy-D View Post
SamFromTX - When a car manufacturer buys back a car it is titled, as such??
Yes.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:15 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 0Q991 View Post
Does anyone know about the law in California?

Naively, I've never given it much thought until now.
Tim, sadly under the CA Lemon Law (many states have a similar law) once the Lemon Law is raised that forces the buyer into arbitration regardless if you signed an arbitration agreement. The manufacturer has a right to have the case heard in arbitration.

FWIW, Nick's case is made worse for him because the provisions in the Lemon law allow a manufacturer in a buy back to reduce the purchase price taking into account mileage and condition of the vehicle.

Nick is asking for a full refund and Porsche does not have to give it to him based on the law and his car is almost a year old.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:23 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Bluehinder View Post
I have a problem with the attitude that only those with "skin in the game", and only those who have driven the car are qualified to give advice. There have been enough reviews and anecdotal reports that everyone knows the car is an epic drive. I'd also argue that those without the burden of current ownership are in the best position to give advice, as they are without bias and don't have to constantly defend the car. I think "stakeholders" are the last to give advice for obvious reasons.

I seem one of the few, if only owners, that agrees that most people would be better off passing on the 2014 and just get a 2015. The hilarious thing about current owners saying that there is nothing else to drive is that they don't have anything to drive. As the old saying goes, a car not driven is just another car.
I get the impression you're referring specifically to my post, Bluehinder, so I'll respond and break this down a little. If you re-read my comment, I never said that someone without skin in the game wasn't "qualified to give advice". What I said was that it was much easier to do so when you have no financial or emotional interest, IOW, you don't own the car. There are also any number of reasons why buy-back would be a less than ideal so at the very least it's no slam dunk and certainly open for debate. You yourself are still "not sure yet" as you've noted above. If it were completely cut and dried I suspect you'd have pulled the trigger by now.

Also, I didn't say there was nothing else to drive. I asked for an opinion on what WSH thought were reasonable alternatives to the 991 GT3 and thought we could discuss from there. As long as we've gotten this far, though, I'll just say that for my part, there's nothing at or below the price of the GT3 that interests me enough to spend significant money, and the cars that are comparable in performance or appeal cost a lot more. As for that old saying you quoted, if we were talking about a permanent situation it might be relevant, but my car won't be out of service forever. By the time I got my money back, shopped for, ordered, and bought something else, the GT3 could already be back on the road.

That doesn't mean I think Porsche have been completely fair or reasonable in this situation, and it will affect my dealings with them going forward. But to reference another old saying, I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:32 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Jimmy-D View Post
SamFromTX - When a car manufacturer buys back a car it is titled, as such??
Originally Posted by SamFromTX View Post
Yes.
What I have been told by someone in a position to know is that while the first time the car is sold, say at auction, it will carry the lemon title, the second time it trades hands, say at another auction, the lemon designation will disappear and the title will effectively be "laundered". I'm no expert on this subject so if someone has better insight into this process please correct me. But if this is true, then 6 months down the road Porsche could come out smelling like a rose on repurchased cars.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:35 PM
  #35  
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Mike - But if Porsche NA buys the car back and then sells it back to the Dealer would that not qualify under what you mentioned above as losing that designation?
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:40 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Jimmy-D View Post
Mike - But if Porsche NA buys the car back and then sells it back to the Dealer would that not qualify under what you mentioned above as losing that designation?
Jimmy, I suppose that's possible. Like I said, I was given the specific example about sale at auction by someone who is in position to know how these things work but I have no expertise myself. Maybe someone else who does can clarify whether what I was told is true and whether the situation you describe would basically be the same thing.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:50 PM
  #37  
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Mike, despite how it may appear, my post was not directed to you per se,

It's fair to say that no option is best for everybody, including buybacks. Everyone needs to decide based on their long term plans for the car, how they use it, and how important a few thousand bucks are.

Me, I don't keep any car for longer than a year or two, this one included. Given that, side stepping this debacle and moving on to a 2015 makes more sense. I see no reason to own the uncertainty surrounding the 2014 model year. There are plenty of fun cars to drive for the summer.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:58 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Bluehinder View Post
Mike, despite how it may appear, my post was not directed to you per se,

It's fair to say that no option is best for everybody, including buybacks. Everyone needs to decide based on their long term plans for the car, how they use it, and how important a few thousand bucks are.

Me, I don't keep any car for longer than a year or two, this one included. Given that, side stepping this debacle and moving on to a 2015 makes more sense. I see no reason to own the uncertainty surrounding the 2014 model year. There are plenty of fun cars to drive for the summer.
It would have been ok if it was, Bluehinder. That's what we're here for.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:58 PM
  #39  
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Mike - Not debating you. I find this interesting what you conveyed and how Porsche could get around and issue a clean Title on a Buy back. I never really enjoyed car buying experience because there is always an angle. Even when you think you got a deal these guys are high fiving when you leave.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:05 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by blinsc View Post
Could you explain this a little further? In what situations would the dealer need protection? I was under the (possibly wrong) assumption that if the car is considered a lemon, it is always the manufacturer that would have to buy it back, not the dealer. Is the arbitration document in place to protect the dealer in situations where the car was not a lemon to begin with, but something the dealer did made the vehicle irreparable?

Like a couple others, this is also a subject I had never taken into consideration.

Thanks.
Dealers have customers sign arbitration agreements to limit their liability from any actions brought by consumers. It keeps down the number of frivolous laws suits and protects them from class action suits. It also protects them from people who are poor negotiators that want to sue because their neighbor who got a better deal was of a different race, sex, national origin, etc. Of course if the dealer is actually engaging in illegal behavior, then arbitration agreement is useless at that point. The attorney general of the state can get involved if necessary. Basically, if you spill some dealership coffee on your pants maybe they will agree to have them cleaned for you but they are not going to let you take them to court to sue for a $1,000,000 for your pain and suffering. That's why dealers want you to sign an arbitration agreement. Car dealers almost always loose in a jury trial no matter how silly the plaintiffs case is.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:22 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
What I have been told by someone in a position to know is that while the first time the car is sold, say at auction, it will carry the lemon title, the second time it trades hands, say at another auction, the lemon designation will disappear and the title will effectively be "laundered". I'm no expert on this subject so if someone has better insight into this process please correct me. But if this is true, then 6 months down the road Porsche could come out smelling like a rose on repurchased cars.
Even if true, most delaers now show Carfax reports, where lemon titile will be there at some point. Sure, they may elect to hide reports on such cars but since most said cars will be sold by Porsche dealers (would you buy a minimally used Porsche GT3 from Bob's car and truck?), I suspect that title would haunt the car forever. That said, everyone will know why the car got that title and I seriously doubt they will bargains. Definitely cheaper for delaers but not much for us suckers.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:52 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Jimmy-D View Post
Mike - Not debating you. I find this interesting what you conveyed and how Porsche could get around and issue a clean Title on a Buy back. I never really enjoyed car buying experience because there is always an angle. Even when you think you got a deal these guys are high fiving when you leave.
I know Jimmy, we're good. I wish I knew if what I was told had any truth to it. Regardless, I have little doubt that your point about the high fives is correct.
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Old 04-16-2014, 09:34 PM
  #43  
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To all that have responded, Thank you. I will post here as my situation progresses. Allan
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:42 PM
  #44  
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I have started the process to sell my car back and so far its been very smooth, My dealer said my car is going back to Germany not staying here. So I don't know if that is happening with every car they are buying back it is with mine. Also Porsche uses an outside agency to buy back the car not an internal one.
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:44 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by gt3craig View Post
I have started the process to sell my car back and so far its been very smooth, My dealer said my car is going back to Germany not staying here. So I don't know if that is happening with every car they are buying back it is with mine. Also Porsche uses an outside agency to buy back the car not an internal one.
Are they refunding taxes, registration, etc, as well?
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