Z356

I must admit that was my position not that long ago. I have been very disappointed that Porsche didn't take full responsibility for the Center Lock issues & catastrophic coolant hose coupling failures in the previous 997 gt3 models. And when I saw that they gave US customers no choice of a sport bucket on the MY2014, I took up a conspiracy theory that went something like this:

"It was a way for Porsche to sort out the improved centerlock wheel system of the new 991 gt3, to make sure it worked as planned on the track, before allowing us to order track-ready sport bucket seats. In addition, the delay also insured that the 'catastrophic coolant hose coupling' failures were a thing of the past! According to my theory, by not providing sport bucket seats on the 991 gt3, it would be a pro-active legal defense of PAG & PCNA since it was giving a clear signal that this was strictly a street vehicle and not intended for track use, including even Driver Ed events!"

But like I have admitted in this forum before, I have now come to believe that there are indeed technical issues with the new US DOT regulations which prevented Porsche from offering the sport buckets (even the 'old' gt2 type) in this market. See below.

I am going to take a wild guess here, Tacet-Conundrum, and answer your last question with "Because the DOT doesn't govern outside the US!"

For the record, the bucket seats currently available in Rest-of-World (ROW) is the 'old' gt2 folding sport buckets with integrated side airbags (Photo #1 on a 991 cab taken by me at the factory). These don't adjust up or down, just front & back. The anticipated 'new' height sport bucket seats are expected to look similar to the 918 Spyder buckets. (Photo # 2 taken by me at my 918 test drive at The Thermal Club). These also have side airbags and adjust up & down, tilt and front & back (except perhaps for the early US 918 passenger seat - more on that below).

In the past, we have had excellent threads on 'Sport Buckets' on this forum. These two come to mind:

Major Fail: No Sport Bucket Seats, started by 'drums' https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...seats-wow.html

More recently another was started by Brian:https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...ket-seats.html

Correct. The earliest we saw 918-type buckets on prototypes of any 991 gt3 (even before they appeared in current RS mules) was on a car driven by Chris Harris and dated June 2013 (see attached third photo).

That might be now a new US DOT requirement...and perhaps the source of the 'rub'! More below.

Jon70: That is certainly part of the equation. I have done some investigation on topic and here is the best summary that I can come up related to this subject:

A) We still don't know the 100% official story as to why the previous 'gt2' sport buckets (currently offered as options in ROW 991 & 981) are no longer approved for US models. But increasingly it's looking more likely that the reason might be new US regulations on adjustability of driver's seat (up & down/angle) for BETTER road visibility & safety for the one at the steering wheel!

B) Detlev von Platen told me in April 2013 in Stuttgart that we would see the new sport bucket seats for the 991 in the MY2015 991 gt3 RS. There has been many other reports stating that sport buckets would appear on the US gt3 RS. I reported this encounter on this forum back in April of 2013:

"I ran this morning into Detlev von Platen, CEO of PCNA, at the Le Meridien Hotel in Stuttgart where we were both staying... my Porsche enthusiast 'bona fides' established, I proceeded to go from pleasant small talk to the question that many on this forum have been concerned with since Geneva '13! I asked him point blank about the lack of a sport bucket seat option on the US 991 gt3. He said they are working on it and will be providing a seat in approx. one year's time for our market! I asked if it would coincide with the introduction of the gt3 RS in the US. He smiled and said 'yes' and 'don't tell anyone'. So I want you all to keep it 'secret', ok! I asked why PCNA didn't get the bucket seat certified for the MY2014 gt3. He said that there were some issues re: folding aspect of the 'gt2' sport bucket seat that was causing problems. To make sure he understood I was not an easy mark, I told him that my 2012 Spyder had a folding 'gt2' seat that was fully certified for the US and it looked identical to the European 'gt2' sport bucket seats I had seen last week on a MY2013 German 991 at Zuffenhausen....He quickly had a comeback - US regulations had changed and that seat (as was optioned in MY2012 in the US) could not be offered on the 991/981 without modification. And that is what they were working on! I report...you decide!

The fact that he assured me that a sport buckets would appear on the US 991 gt3 RS (probable MY2015) is consistent with what some of us (e.g. me) have been saying for a while on this forum! Why PCNA didn't anticipate the problems with the changing US certification rules, I'll let you ponder on that matter! As many of you know, I have a theory as to why PCNA 'fumbled' the ball! Regardless my private speculation, this is Detlev's version of the sport bucket seat 'question' as of this morning and I take him at his word!"

Post #342 at: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/...l#post10411388

C) We have speculated in this forum that the 918 Spyder's bucket seats will be the 'basis' for the 991/981 sport bucket seat. But that has never been yet confirmed. We also don't know if the 991 version will fold (as the gt2). The 918 Spyder's are fixed (don't fold), like the original gt Carrera seats later used in European spec 997 gt3 RS's.

D) We know height adjustment was one of the principal objectives given to the individual at Porsche (Thorsten Klein) responsible for designing the 918 sport bucket seats and the 918 interior in general.

http://www.interiormotivesmagazine.c...e.aspx?aid=121

I know that because Thorsten told me personally about the adjustability requirements for the 918 seats. He a friend & fellow R Gruppe member (see attached photo of Thorsten taken by Bob Tilton). He is the individual that presently holds a patent with PAG for the 918 bucket seats (see attached page of his patent application). Other than the minor adjustability detail, Thorsten has NOT been able to tell me anything else about the new sport buckets, whether they will be used in future 991/981 models, etc. I have asked him several times but he has been understandably unwilling to reveal any details of his work! So we all wait to see what sport bucket seats will appear on the MY2015 gt3 RS! It is also my assumption that once the new height adjustable Sport Buckets are introduced in the MY2015 RS, they will supplant the older, non-adjustable 'gt2' buckets in all markets, including in ROW.

E) The height adjustment requirement under US DOT regulations applies only to the driver-side seat - not the passenger side. As we have previously discussed, the 918 Spyder has sport buckets that were supposed to be adjustable (up/down & tilt) for all world markets. This is one of the greatest improvement of this new design buckets from the previous Porsche sport bucket introduced here with the MY2008 gt2 (folding w. side airbags) and latter offered as optional or standard in various .2 997/987 models. Yet, Porsche late last year told early production United States 918 customers that their passenger side sport buckets might NOT be delivered with height adjustment due to some DOT issues. Here is what I posted at the 918 forum on the subject:

"I have just talked to my friend Doug <who has ordered an early production 918>. His understanding is that Option 543 (adjustable passenger bucket seat) is not yet approved for sale in the US market. It will not be available for sure on his January 2014 production 918 <now delayed until April>. He has been told by Porsche that the reason is related to an air bag issue. For some reason, it doesn't yet meet US safety regulations. So let's speculate a bit on this. The drivers side sport bucket seat moves up & down. It has an incorporated side air bag to protect the 'thorax' part of the body. The left door has an airbag for the protection of the head. Finally, there is a frontal airbag on the hub part of the steering wheel. What is the difference on the passenger side that would prevent Porsche from offering an adjustable height seat on that location? The seat's thorax air bag moves up & down with the seat, so that should not be the problem. The door mounted airbag covers the head on side impacts. There should be no issues there - that system works fine with the driver's height adjustable seat. So it must be the frontal dash/mounted air bag. Something about the air bag location and projected coverage area in relationship with a seat that is not stationary, but that it can move up & down a few inches. Seems odd, but that is all I the information I have been able to gather to date!"

https://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-...st-2013-a.html

I don't yet know if the issue of Option 543 has been resolved so that US production 918's will get an adjustable passenger side bucket seat. To be clear, a sport bucket will be provided for the passenger of a US 918 Spyder regardless this 'rub'- it is just that it will not be adjustable for up & down like on that option for ROW. Hopefully, I will get an update on option 543 on the US 918 Spyder and report back ASAP to this forum.

Summary & Conclusion: Here is my best guess at the 'US DOT issue' of sport bucket seats on a 991/981 and the reason for the long delay:

1) Height Adjustment is NOW required for driver seat (to allow for short vs tall re: visibility & road safety) by US DOT.

2) From an safety engineering point of view, the advantages of the previous 997/987 'gt2' bucket seats was it was fixed in place (just front & back adjustability). The airbags pre-positioned on the 997 & 987 (steering wheel, dash, doors, seats) were able to protect the occupants of those sport seats at that set 'height' & thus met the previous US DOT standards.

3) From the same safety engineering point of view, the disadvantages of the new height adjustment requirement in a sport bucket seats is that it creates a variety of possible up & down positions for the occupants of each seat relative to the fixed position of the airbag (e.g. one on the dash). Unfortunately, that requires airbags that protects the occupant at all elevations & angles. Perhaps, the current airbags on the 991 & 981 are not, according to US DOT, able to do a satisfactory job of protection in the case of adjustable sport bucket seats.

4) There may be additional issues with the folding mechanism of the new sport bucket seat, per Detlev von Platen's April 2013 comments to me. As a historical aside, the US DOT required a secondary latch on the MY1973 optional Recaro-made 'sport seats' for the 911's which was not necessary in earlier models. Because the seats changed in MY1974, these '73 Recaros are totally unique. Ask me how I know. So it's not the first time that DOT gums up the works on Porsche's sportiest offerings of seating on the 911 (see photo #6).

My dos centavos...and take all of this with some of Morton's finest!


Saludos,
Eduardo
Currently in rainy Seattle under...an umbrella!


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Mike in CA

Great job, Eduardo, bringing all of that information together and presenting it so clearly!

jfr0317

Thanks for yet another very informative post, Eduardo!

hzoenvy33

Thanks for that amazing post Eduardo.
But I think the seats in the Chris Harris video are not 918 seats.
I think it's difficult to explain in English for me, but in the top third of the seat where the "holes" are, there is additional leather on the GT3 seats while the 918s just have carbon fiber and that silver metal stuff.

Are the 918 seats with a fixed rest? I think the regular GT3 seats are "foldable" I think the 918s aren't.

KINGSRULE

The C Harris GT3 sport seats look much better than the 918 seats...

SamFromTX

I can always count on learning something solid from Eduardo. Thank you!!

Z356

hzoenvy: I assume you noticed that in the video, Chris Harris gt3 has two types of sport bucket seats in his car. The empty passenger seat is what we Porsche folks in America call the 'gt2' sport bucket (because it was introduced first in our market on the MY2008 gt2). The driver seat, however, looks to me as a type of 918 Spyder or 918 look-alike (see photo #1)! Remember I said "The earliest we saw 918-type buckets on prototypes of any 991 gt3". The visible differences to the 918 Spyder buckets, to my weak eyes, appear to be in the area of the holes - the 918 hole is divided in two parts and the Harris seat appears to have only one singular hole. But the general shape of the seat looks 918-like, don't you think?

As you might recall, the older gt Carrera seats looked totally different (see attached photo #2). So it's definitely not that!

To my knowledge, the current 918 Spyder seats (both types regular & lightweight for the Weissach Package) does NOT fold. And yes, the 'gt2' sport buckets do fold.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Seattle

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hzoenvy33

Thanks Eduardo, I only looked at the passenger seat for that comment, I just have realised that the driver seat is a different one

It makes sense that they just have two kinds of seats in their portfolio so the "regular" foldable seats from the GT3 and the "new" non-foldable 918 seats. (Could be quite difficult to clean your rear window with them ).

Z356

Glad it was appreciated. Thank you for responses guys!

hzoenvy33

Re: your remark on 'their portfolio' of sport bucket seats. Here is what I am anticipating, which is perhaps a bit different from what you are suggesting. I think Porsche will have three basic types of 'Sport Bucket Seats' in the near future:

1) The current expensively constructed 918 Spyder Sport Buckets (seating surfaces in fine leather - see first photo) that are fixed & non-folding. There are also two slightly 'lighter' versions of this bucket seat for the 'Weissach Package' 918 model. The US version will be covered in thinner leather. The ROW version will be covered in flame-retardant fabric. But construction is basically similar.

2) The yet-to-appear 991/981 'Sport Bucket Seats' that will look similar to the 918 Spyder seat, but might be cheaper to construct and will also fold forward. The seating surfaces will be covered in leather. Once the latter is introduced, I anticipate that the older 'gt2' folding bucket seats will no longer be offered by Porsche in ROW.

3) For ROW gt3 RS & other 'limited edition' gt models, a fixed Sport Bucket Seats similar in look to the 918 'Weissach Package' bucket seat. In fact, it might be exactly the same seat. It will not fold and it will be slightly lighter than #2 above. Instead of leather, seating surfaces will be normally covered in flame-retardant fabric (common in racing seats). I don't anticipate it will be initially imported into this market by PCNA for gt3's. But they'll likely come w. side airbags, so we might someday see them here too...in the 960 for sure.

Let me also further speculate on the up-coming version of the 991/981 version (#2 above) of the sport bucket seats:

A) As I have already mentioned, we really don't yet know if the construction of the 991/981 version of the new sport bucket seats will be exactly the same as the expensive & super lightweight 918 Spyder seats. The 918 seats can afford to be made with the lightest state-of-the-art materials for weight savings reasons. After all, they are charging $845K base for that model! The 991/981 version, on the other hand, could be made of cheaper materials on the inside - yet the exterior could look similar to those on the more expensively constructed 918 buckets. As many of you know, in the construction of the 'gt2' sport bucket seats the seating shell was really made of 'fiberglass'!

"Despite the presence of carbon fiber in the exterior shell, the main structure of the seat is actually constructed from fiberglass. Graphite is likely not what you want up against your body in a collision due to its tendency to splinter into razor-sharp shards, and to be honest, cost probably entered into the equation as well (these seats will soon be offered on other, lower-priced Porsche vehicles)." (see attached second photo)

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/16/2...ds-best-seats/

B) It wouldn't surprise me if the 991/981 version (although it would be also used on the 981 where it's not really as needed!) of the new sport bucket seats will be a 'folding' type. In other words, if the new 918-style bucket seats for the 991/981 models end up folding forward like the previous gt2 version. Although there is no back seat on the gt3, it's convenient to get them folded forward to access rear storage or clean the windows (as hzoenvy33 stated in his last post). I also anticipate they'll be an option on the upcoming 991 gts model...which will have usable rear seats!

Remember that the current sport buckets (gt2 type) can be optioned (ordered) on any 991/981 model in many markets outside the US. So for PAG to design the most flexible 'sport bucket seats' with a 'folding mechanism' makes the most sense for the upcoming 991/981 version!

My hunch is that the US dealer network will push PCNA to LIMIT the specific 991 or 981 models where the new sport bucket seats will be offered here as an option in this market. American dealers in general don't like 'sport buckets'. They find them 'uncomfortable' and hard to sell! Although they will not spec them on cars ordered for stock inventory, they know enthusiasts & track junkies will order them in their custom builds. And they know they'll eventually have to deal with some of these 'undesirable's sport buckets as traded-in or lease-returns. So they will push PCNA hard to limit this seat option to only the 'sportiest' of models - not your run-of the-mill 991's or 981's. Once they are introduced in the MY2015 991 gt3 RS, the likely candidates for these new 'optional' sport buckets in current & future US models are:

1) The .1 991 gt3 - 'delayed' availability for late MY2015 production (after all '15 gt3 RS's are delivered to customers). Or skipped altogether in the MY2015 .1 991 gt3 & only offered when the .2 face-lifted 991 gt3 is introduced. That could be MY2016...or MY2017. Remember that the .2 997 gt3's were not offered in MY2009, which was the first year of the .2 997 facelift!

2) The .2 991 gts, the .2 981 Cayman/Boxster GTS (so MY2016 & beyond...not in the upcoming MY2015 models about to be introduced)

3) The .2 981 Spyder or Cayman R if they are ever produced late in the model MY2017 or MY2018!

Again, my two cents for what is worth.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Seattle...where it hasn't stopped raining since my arrival!

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