consolidated

Two more years of drivetrain warranty would make these cars more than hold their value against virgin cars.

R.Deacon

why do you suppose that red Gt3 was out on the public road being driven by a P service tech on Saturday remember whose owner was upset that the tech wouldn't furnish him any info
was driving it if the engine replacement plan is in fact the case?

Wednesday now seems frustratingly distant : If that's even announcement day.

Not sure how cool to drop such a bomb

I have a scheduled April build at this point sitting tight

991s/mt and x51/ aero /PDDC/PASM Bose and screw the red thread very tempting

carcommander

I was gonna compare this car to my 991 turbo for awhile and probably sell one of them. Not sure I want a GT3 that could only be sold at a large discount.

Jaypod

Good thread, would read again

NaroEscape

As stronbl noted above, I have no skin in this game, so no emotions on this subject....

I would get my money back unless I planned to either keep it forever, flog the crap out of it until it basically dies, or modify it in some way (racing, aftermarket upgrades, etc.)

If you plan to keep it a few years and not change it, do a handful of track days....and basically just drive it, you will take a substantial hit on resell.

Think about it: 5 years from now, if I'm looking at a 2014 with a dealer replaced engine, or 2015 that came as is from the factory, same miles, same options....which one would YOU buy??

You'd have to sell the 2014 for a SUBSTANTIAL discount for me to consider it...

Mike in CA

Good point and good question. Since we're spit-balling here, what if in 5 years the 2015 is out of warranty and the 2014 still has a year or so left on an extended factory warranty? Also, as this whole sorry episode clearly demonstrates, there is nothing magical about an engine that "came as is from the factory". Just sayin'....

frayed

FWIW, my car would have its engine replaced at the factory since it never left port.

Tell me this, what's the difference b/t a rig in which the factory put 1 motor, then took it out and put in another. There's a stack of GT3s still in the motherland that will have engine R&R's. There's nothing magical about the factory pulling a motor and putting another in.

But the issue isn't about functional equivalency. It's about perception.

So, good to hear folks thoughts.

TT Surgeon

I think I'd go ahead only if its done at the factory, if not there is a stigmata associated w a dealer changed engine, like it or not.

Medicopter

^ This. If I would be in the market for a 991 GT3 I would take my money and observe from the side lines.

Remember when AP was so proud of the the 997 GT3/RS and all the reasons he gave as to why? With what's going on with the engines on the 991 GT3 I'm afraid there'll always be a bad aftertaste, which is unfortunate...

Bluehinder

This is a no brainer. I'll take a check please. Perception is reality, this car is damaged goods no matter what happens. To the general public this is a done deal, this year is a loser.

To the poster who asks if Porsche will agree to a refund, I say they have no choice. I myself will invoke the lemon law and contact the press. The path of least resistance for Porsche is to refund the money.

I worked my way through college for four years as a auto technician. If you think a motor transplant is no big deal, well you are dreaming. You all act like it's changing shoes.

If this is anything other than a few bolts exchange, I'm out of this car immediately. Don't be a Kool-Aid drinker, there are plenty of other interesting cars out there without this baggage.

DreamCarrera

+1

Past Ferraris would routinely get their engines pulled in the name of basic maint, it's really not a big deal IMHO as long as the new GT3 engines being installed are factory replacements and the work is being performed by a master P tech.

These 991 GT3 swaps are not going to be performed by some neophyte wrench working his way through school. They will all be meticulously performed by Porsche trained master techs. Are you saying that you would never purchase an older model Ferrari because a Ferrari dealer once(actually more than once in most cases) performed an engine-out basic belt change on the car???



Unfortunately, I agree with prior posts that argue perception will become reality for these cars and they may forever become tainted with the stigma of this fiasco.

911rox

I think the point being missed here isn't concern whether engines are being replaced or by whom... Not an ideal situation but definitely can be done without issue. As many have already eluded, the resultant stigma on the car and the effect on value is key consideration number one...

Key consideration number two is whether the replacement motors will be up to the task? Whether faulty components or design issues have in fact truly been identified, rectified and whether the revised spec is up to the task after a few weeks of rushed revision????. If they didn't identify the issue through years of testing how can anybody be confident they will have done it now and that other failures will not appear down the track as components wear in...

My greatest fear for the guys buying these cars is that whilst marketed for track, Porsche will only have done enough to keep the engines together under normal driving conditions and pull another "CL" trick where warranty claims on track are denied or additional maintenance is prescribed in 2-3 years time... After all, they replaced our centrelocks to rectify wear and damage their failed design had caused when torque was revised from 500 to 600Nm... One has to wonder how they got through 2-3 years of testing without losing a wheel yet they get to market and they're coming loose everywhere. Their underlying failure in engineering was never really rectified with the revised parts however. They knew it, customers proved it and were denied warranty and ultimately they shirked their responsibility and stalled for long enough to then pass the buck onto customers in the form of ridiculous maintenance plans with track use...

In my opinion, a warranty extension is not enough, they need to issue in writing that the engine will be warrantied fully for track use for the entire warranty period before I'd accept the car back. Earlier GT3s didn't require this assurance, their race program gave customers the reassurance they needed...

DreamCarrera

Your points are being missed here...Really??? I think all of your points have been elucidated many times on this forum.

At this point, the same points are being endlessly regurgitated here at the expense of current 991 GT3 owners/deposit holders. I think the hysteria should be kept to a min until more news comes out from Porsche.

Macca

My thoughts are this. 1). Production of the GT3 started in September. We have at least one board member who was doing a factory tour at that time and is a reliable source that cars were on the production line. I (and I assume others) also have a stack of photos of cars sitting in holding yards in October during the "production delays". Those cars have now shipped to their owners, but they were all shipped well after production "resumed" in the second week of Nov (week 45). The customers for those cars received a letter from PAG via the dealer stated their cars were being processed and would ship from mid Nov to end of December. Some member on here from UAE were customers of these cars. So a precedent has already been set for this. We already have board members in possession of cars that were built then had a "fix" applied to them after they were dressed for export. We have never learnt the full details of what went wrong but if we speculate it is related to the current issue then again we already have a precedent for cars that have had their engines dropped and replaced (it would be too slow to drop, tear down and re build with non defective parts). 2). The above owners essentially know now different and on at least 1 occasion I know of have sold their car at a premium after it was delivered. We never talk about their cars being any different from out (Mike, Myself, Sam or others who are in possession of GT3s). 3). I still maintain there is nothing wrong with my car. I accept Porsche may choose to replace its engine but frankly I have no idea why. Maybe Ive just been lucky so far - guess we will never know. 4). I had a meeting with our countries largest Porsche Service Manager today. His view is that if Porsche replace the engine that is the right thing to do and the best outcome. Its happened before apparently. In our country early 997 and 996 with warranty replacement engines are valued higher than M96 equipped cars still running around with the chance of IMS failure or porous bores. However I feel the GT3 is different. I asked him how Porsche would rectify the fact my cars engine would no longer match the stickers (engine serial number) on its bodywork and owners manual. He stated if the factory provide new stickers and the original engine number reverts to the new one when looked up on the PAG system then none would be the wiser. I would accept this if it actually happened. But I am not certain it will (although cant see why not - cost is basically Zero to PAG). 5). Am I concerned a new engine will have a failure? Well Im not concerned my old one does so answer is "no". If Porsche spend 100 Million replacing these engines then I expect they will take special care this time around. Infact I expect they will boot the robots and have a huge amount more hand assembly in this unit than the original units or even possibly the subsequent units. 6). What are my concerns. Simply residual value. If Porsche cut me a cheque for 10-15K for not having my car for 3 months, replace my engine, update the stickers on my car and owners manual and do a look up/revert on their system files, extend teh warranty (even 1-2 years) then Im happy. I dont think residuals will be significantly affected given this scenario. Ive driven the car and its that good that I wouldn't want anything else... However if Porsche fail to compensate me adequately for the cost I have endured (opportunity cost of funds/interest, insurance, missed events, embarrassment, inconvenience etc), tahty fail to straighten out the paperwork after the replacement unit is installed and/or the residuals take a hard hit i will be less than happy. Infact Ill be angry. If I hadnt taken delivery or even driven this car car yet I wouldnt know what I was missing and frankly I would demand similar to I have above (maybe less compensation) or not wish to complete the contract and buy used in a few years time once the product has proven itself. One exception to this would be cars that are going back to the factory for a new engine refit (i.e. never left Germany) as stated in 1) above I dont consider this a stigma as they will carry the correct documentation. The only silver lining I can find (and its a very small and unknown one) is that the downstream effect of this may be a lower production volume. Assuming the car proves reliable from here on in and again assuming Porsche keep moving the GT3 in subsequent iterations further away from the original concept (turbo, hybrid etc etc) I can only from looking at Porsche model history say that this will make the car a very strong medium/long term investment. Of course youd have to hold onto it that lkong! Im thinking of cars such as the CGT (definitely a future gilt edged investment already rising now but production cut short on those and they had their gremlins too, the 964RS (the press hated it), the iconic 1973 RS (the first 500 cars were built using lightweight components - the run was only intended for 500 units - but the next 1000 apparently parts bin specials - however rarely makes a huge difference in the price they change hands), the 993GT2 (porsche couldnt sell them) etc etc etc Essentially time will heal all. The short answer is I wish Id never driven the damn thing, because if I hadn't I wouldn't be prepared to put up with all this! That's the best I can offer. That's my 0.2c

911rox

My comments weren't directed at you but rather at all of those fussing about whether Horst knows how to use a wrench and screwdriver at the local dealership whilst overlooking longer term implications... If I'd meant you, I'd quote you

Apologies for having bored you with my further regurgitation then. Maybe we'll wait for Porsche, sure they'll be happy to share with us exactly how they f%#ked up... Porsche have said all they were going to say... Nothing.