1198r

blast - u saw me in my mates car, while he drove my gen 2 RS.....

his 991 GT3 ran fine for me but if I closed my eyes, i'm not sure wot car I was in.

wanna911

Completely true, neither was the 997 (or 996) for that matter a model of perfection in engineering. Porsche has had some serious flaws and issues with the whole lot. This serves them right both for their hubris, and turning a blind eye to their previous blunders for as long as possible.

I guess the point is that much of the soul of the car is the drivers it attracts. IMO the definition of a great car is one that keeps the returning guys happy and also brings new ones into the fold as well. Porsche has completely disowned it's purist drivers, and been disrespectful in doing so.

It's good that guys like yourself and sam will step up and push the car, but to me, when none of the guys we are used to seeing upgrade to new GT3's to drive the wheels off of them are upgrading, it's a bad sign. Car went from add cage/slicks and go racing (see Clarke, Grady etc.) to pretty much non race-able in one fell swoop.

Completely disowning a large portion of your most hardcore followers is a cardinal sin in the sports car world from my point of view, and that will never change. "Yeah but what about the water cooling"? Nonsense, has nothing to do with the driver interaction, and makes the car more powerful and reliable (other than the glue on the coolant hoses lol). Still could race the car, in fact, probably the most track focused car Porsche has built came from that transition. And certainly the winningest 911 in which the factory race car shared 85% of the parts. What happened then, and now, are hardly at all related.


Off my soapbox now...........

orthojoe

Ah, but the idea that no 'respected' 997 gt3 rennlister has a 991 gt3 on order is another misconception. I know of a few guys who post on that forum regularly, who are hard core track guys and fantastic drivers, that have a 991 GT3s on order. However, they just haven't announced it to everyone. I do think that those who are discontent with the new design are much more vocal that with prior generation redesigns because of the emotion that the transmission choice entails. I think that is where the conception that everyone in the old crowd has given up. I think your concern about disowning your hardcore followers is a POTENTIAL concern that still has to be played out once people actually get their hands on the new designs and see what they are really like.

wanna911

Respected is a looser term than I intended because respect is not exclusively earned with lap times. However bantering on about how much more performance there is, while intending to never, hardly ever or lacking ability to use said performance is my idea of contradictory (not at all insinuating you as I think you will get good performance from the car).

I'm not saying no one that tracks will buy the 991 GT3. But by and large, a huge portion of hardcore track guys have been turned away by the lack of manual, and if not that, the neglect to even attempt to make it a legitimate track car (CL's, 20's, no slicks). Seems to be intentional at that. Those things are the opposite of hardcore to me.

We see a good sampling on this forum though, among enthusiasts how many have been turned off. A LOT of people. And for good reason. And now there will be a huge influx of people who are not at all passionate about cars jumping in to get the new gadget, and jumping right back out when the next gadget comes. I think that's the point Jumper was trying to make. Quality vs quantity of enthusiast. Even though Porsche isn't really adding much, they would have sold all of the cars anyways.

orthojoe

Useless bantering happens on both sides of the fence. Yes, there is a group of individuals who have completely written off the new car for various reasons, however, the world doesn't revolve around Florida. They could be right about their reason, but they could also very well be wrong. There is a chance that while many have passed on the car for now, they could be looking back to get in the game if the car turns out to be better than they had envisioned. Only time will tell. Your arguments are valid, but I don't think can be proven true. Yet.

My opinion on the car probably won't count for much once I take delivery since I have never owned a prior gen GT3 to compare. It will have to come from the other guys who do have the car on order. However, it might have value to a newer group that haven't gotten into the game yet and will become the future trakcars's of this forum once they are bitten by the bug. You guys can still make fun of them for not being able to drive a manual, though.

GTEE3

I think I have seen a fair number of the 'hardcore' Fla. track guys migrate to air-cooled, Cayman, etc. from the 997's...

neanicu

When Porsche takes a 991GT3/RS in stock form,registers in a 24hrs race and finishes it(doesn't matter what place),like they did with the 997,then this car will get all the respect it deserves.

wanna911

They went to less expensive RACE cars. Not for their primary street/track cars. Totally different.

Hard to banter in a contradictory fashion about one's enjoyment, but I digress.

What can be proven is ultimately, equally as disappointing is the direction the car has taken. Outside of the manual, this car fits the DE cup model very well. But that's on street tires, with probably less grip than the GT3 comes with to begin with. I know plenty of guys who track with full slicks. Just saw one last weekend on Michelin N2 blue label slicks. Not an option any more. The engine has so far (within a couple of months) not proven up to the task, and still has a long ways to go. Not in cup car is a huge indicator of lack of confidence by Porsche. Having to get custom made wheels to run even 19's (don't even know if this has/can happen). These are equally as much a middle finger to hardcore (tires and all) track guys, and not circumstantial nor will be corrected with time (unless there is a RWS delete kit and somehow you can fit 18's on the car). Transmission aside, the case still stands.

What happens when the Corvette's show up at the track with warranty in track and a track prep manual and slicks on their car. You can't even use the "well anyone can run slicks and go faster" excuse anymore. And there is still not indication of if the semi-slicks fit as some of them produce grip very close to full slicks.

TRAKCAR

Whatever the reason, the big group of guys who bought whatever the next GT3 was, has not gone on to buy the 991, I think I'm the only one of the group I know?
Someone going fast in PDK, gets a different level of respect from me than someone going fast and or smooth in a manual, so not sure about that.
Another factor is the unproven durability and the unknowns in terms of setup that may be forever unknown as the real good shops got good by racing the stuff that they help us out with on track.
Now they no longer race what we drive.

The race car is just a place holder and I'm working on getting it titled and insured so I can drive it to the track also while I tray this racing thing.
997RS? Not at these prices, 450HP Cayman for $100K? Ugly Corvette for $65K? New RS for $150K? I dunno...

Pat L.

New to this corner of the forum as I usually check in with the racing... For polling purposes I figured I'd respond. I've got 26 miles on my GT3 (delivered last couple days in December) and it's a garage queen until they get a fix. I may start it up and drive it around the block so it doesn't get flat spots and collect oil, but outside of that, I'm listening to Porsche's warnings.

A lot of 991 hate in this thread and I'd just like to say that I've spent a lot of time in all years of the GT3 and if I wanted the most fun to drive I'd pick the 996 and if I wanted the fastest/easiest to drive it'd be the 991. I have no problem rowing gears, but everyone needs to realize the h-pattern has been gone from racing for a decade and the pedal on the far left will be gone from the street car very soon. You can hold on to your opinions, but technology is moving on. I was the first one to complain that the 991 GT America was a paddle shift, but when I got my hands on it back in November it won me over on the out lap.

jumper5836

Depends what racing your talking about, big boy racing where they pay drivers will use a gearbox that eliminates driver errors and expensive mistakes. Though it's not as fun watching it now. It also takes away the focus from the driver and puts it on the car. There is still a lot of racing still being done with the H pattern.
I am not hating of the 991, I'm hating on the direction that it's going. The GT3 shouldn't be a luxury car and the RS should be a GT3 with everything that the GT3 did have that wasn't needed ripped out to save weight.

2padels

I'd be interested to hear some thoughts regarding a NEW, SHINY, GT3 sitting in Emden, breathing in all that salt air for weeks at a time waiting to embark either to your country or back to Zuffenhausen for the fix. Porsche, if you're reading this, please move the cars to a safe haven and notify the owners you've done so...PLEASE.

wanna911

Racing has become a crap shoot where the drivers hardly matter anymore. Watch Scott Tucker win ALMS PC class and then get out driven at SCCA runoffs every year, but win because he bought a car and built it to usurp the rules. You can't tell if it's the team, car, driver, anything. Back in the day, you didn't win unless you were the real deal. Championships are mostly bought, sandbagged and lobbied now, not earned, certainly not from the drivers seat. Sanctioning bodies (even down to the amateur ones) decide who they want to win or not have a shot at winning. Hardly any series still actually rely on driver talent. Heck, with the performance adjustments, hardly any really rely on engineering talent either. The rules are made to make and keep as many people competitive as possible = more money for the series.

"Because pro racing uses it" is not exactly a ringing endorsement. The cars are getting to the point where they will basically drive themselves. Any dude who can cut a check, buy a couple of pro drivers to show him the ropes and a competitive chassis, can be competitive in no time.

Pat L.

I agree that BoP and money can ultimately be very important in playing a role in determining championships. However, to sit behind your computer and say the engineers, crew and drivers hardly matter is nothing short of ignorant. And if you think the top level professional cars basically engineer/drive themselves then I'd encourage you to a) try one out, b) talk to an amateur that has or c) come talk to the teams in the paddock that aren't sitting on top of the time sheets. Scott Tucker had to basically devote his waking life to get up to speed so while I can't argue with the size of the checks he wrote, I will defend his hard work. Competition becomes tighter year after year and any driver that wins a championship in today's environment most certainly had to earn it.

To get back on topic: just because a car has paddle shifters doesn't put it in a category unworthy to be considered a true sports car. It doesn't make it any less difficult to wring that last little bit of performance out of it. It's a different way to free up the mental/physical tasks of the driver so he/she can focus on the numerous other tasks involved with driving a car at the limit. Will some people, myself included, always long for a chance to row through an h-pattern? Of course. Would I choose that over the current car in LA traffic or an endurance race? No effing way.

jumper5836

Thats like offering a soldier a ride to the battle. Sorry I'd rather hump it with the rest of them. Endurance is all about driver and consistency. Shifting with buttons allows any couch potato to keep concentration and not mess up.