To PCCB or not PCCB
01-22-2014, 03:22 AM
#61
Burning Brakes
Bl00dy well put Zero. Second the vote for a sticky.
One other item on PCCBs in track use, that has not got a mention so far, is green fade.....that joyous moment when you've managed to glaze the surface of the pad....and the ceramics don't bite....followed by that aeon of sheer terror when you think retardation will be external....
And then the glaze is ground out....and friction returns with a vengeance....
Goes to making damn sure you bed in, warm up and cool down the ceramics appropriately....
At least foregoing was an issue with gen 2...and certain pads... Must admit then rather lost interest in PCCBs. ... So pad types might have resolved..
Mike ...spot on with the PTS comment and all leather.....I would not think twice. On these...so it ain't money...(but damn such is pretty) [Editor: who the f()ck is a marketing victim now? Hmmmmm....]
Still as you comment it's perceived value to benefit...and I've yet to sense that wopping big unsprung mass redux....so don't get there....now back to whether the PTS window will open for the RS....and can you get gulf orange wheels?
One other item on PCCBs in track use, that has not got a mention so far, is green fade.....that joyous moment when you've managed to glaze the surface of the pad....and the ceramics don't bite....followed by that aeon of sheer terror when you think retardation will be external....
And then the glaze is ground out....and friction returns with a vengeance....
Goes to making damn sure you bed in, warm up and cool down the ceramics appropriately....
At least foregoing was an issue with gen 2...and certain pads... Must admit then rather lost interest in PCCBs. ... So pad types might have resolved..
Mike ...spot on with the PTS comment and all leather.....I would not think twice. On these...so it ain't money...(but damn such is pretty) [Editor: who the f()ck is a marketing victim now? Hmmmmm....]
Still as you comment it's perceived value to benefit...and I've yet to sense that wopping big unsprung mass redux....so don't get there....now back to whether the PTS window will open for the RS....and can you get gulf orange wheels?
01-22-2014, 07:15 AM
#62
I have eagerly read every comment and appreciate all the help in rationalizing my recent purchase. I have never had, but always wanted and can't to this day figure out why I have not ordered a Porsche with PCCB's.
Well, I can now say that is corrected and another item is off my "bucket list" I'm trading a perfectly good and well optioned and improved '09 C2S on a very low mileage and well optioned 2011 GT3 with PCCB's among other neat options.
Car should be here today and I will hopefully take delivery this weekend. Before delivery it will get and Xpel protective bra treatment and an alignment and corner balance. Additionally the sport buckets from my '09 will go into the Gt3.
.... and my wonderful wife just shakes her head and goes along with this. "Remember growing old is mandatory but growing up is optional"
Well, I can now say that is corrected and another item is off my "bucket list" I'm trading a perfectly good and well optioned and improved '09 C2S on a very low mileage and well optioned 2011 GT3 with PCCB's among other neat options.
Car should be here today and I will hopefully take delivery this weekend. Before delivery it will get and Xpel protective bra treatment and an alignment and corner balance. Additionally the sport buckets from my '09 will go into the Gt3.
.... and my wonderful wife just shakes her head and goes along with this. "Remember growing old is mandatory but growing up is optional"
01-22-2014, 08:44 AM
#63
Rennlist Member
Lmao... Couldn't agree more although I can appreciate why guys not wanting to track may find PCCBs more appealing for look, lack of noise and dust but to say they are better? There in lays the irony because these are NOT the justifications Porsche give for PCCBs, it's performance and yet whilst they may provide some performance benefit, the technology used by Porsche is not up to the task for track use...
Reality: (i) Most track guys have there "performance brakes sitting in the cupboard of their garage"
(ii) Cup cars that are purpose built for racing and achieving ultimate performance use.... STEELS!
(iii) Porsche sell us PCCBS as a $9k upgrade for performance, give us a spill about how Gen3s are now made even better and yet introduce steel swap overs? Why? If they are finally up to the task finally why now offer a steel rotor to suit PCCB cars...
The reality is that Porsche use marketing to peddle expensive options to appeal to our desire to have the ultimate performance machine. If they put MOVIT or similar true carbons as used in F1 that can cope with track and provide all the stated claims, I'd happily pony up the $$$ for a real performance upgrade...
Right on Orthojoe! Agree completely with all you've said. Being track focused, true performance benefits without huge upkeep cost is paramount in ticking the box on such options... A set of aftermarket motorsport steels will easily match the Porsche PCCBs in longevity at 1/10th the cost... I'll happily take the 0.1-0.2 sec penalty per 2min lap with the added upsprung mass 
Very sound comments Mike, particularly the one highlighted!
My track wheels are forged and weigh about 6 pounds less each that OEM... To be honest, I could not sense significant differences like many claim, very subtle yes but significant? No... Quizzed my pro instructor about the difference and he agreed saying they might be good for maybe 0.1-0.2 sec at best...
PCCBs have traditionally been half the weight of steels BUT with the huge size difference of these Gen3s over steels and the additional weight associated in the larger physical mass, the weight benefit will be reduced further over steels
Thanks Zero... Now people can identify their needs and rationalise what is best for them!
Furthermore, if performance is paramount and money is no object, smart people would buy the steel set up and order a set of Movits... True carbons that are claimed to go a lifetime but I have no doubt they would give you 100k km of trouble free track duty at the same price as a replacement set of PCCBS... Just saying...
Reality: (i) Most track guys have there "performance brakes sitting in the cupboard of their garage"
(ii) Cup cars that are purpose built for racing and achieving ultimate performance use.... STEELS!
(iii) Porsche sell us PCCBS as a $9k upgrade for performance, give us a spill about how Gen3s are now made even better and yet introduce steel swap overs? Why? If they are finally up to the task finally why now offer a steel rotor to suit PCCB cars...
The reality is that Porsche use marketing to peddle expensive options to appeal to our desire to have the ultimate performance machine. If they put MOVIT or similar true carbons as used in F1 that can cope with track and provide all the stated claims, I'd happily pony up the $$$ for a real performance upgrade...
LOL, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but yes, I am. Cue the 'bone doc' jokes. 
If you are saying that we speak different languages because we are looking at the pccb debate from totally different sides, I would agree. I'm not saying that one side is the 'right' side or the 'wrong' side. There are just two sides with legitimate rationale on both sides. I tend to come out swinging when the rationale is incorrect, or when someone completely dismisses rationale that is legitimate.
I saw some 410mm PCCB the other day. The sheer size is pretty awesome and makes the 380mm rotors look kind of small in comparison. Even if they last twice as long on the track, it just won't work for my intended use. I would totally pay for PCCB if they last forever on track like the movits supposedly do.
If you are saying that we speak different languages because we are looking at the pccb debate from totally different sides, I would agree. I'm not saying that one side is the 'right' side or the 'wrong' side. There are just two sides with legitimate rationale on both sides. I tend to come out swinging when the rationale is incorrect, or when someone completely dismisses rationale that is legitimate.
I saw some 410mm PCCB the other day. The sheer size is pretty awesome and makes the 380mm rotors look kind of small in comparison. Even if they last twice as long on the track, it just won't work for my intended use. I would totally pay for PCCB if they last forever on track like the movits supposedly do.
I hesitate to jump into this because it seems obvious that for some reason this subject elicits a great deal of emotion. If someone spends an extra $5500 on PTS in tangerine orange and an extra $4000 on leather dash and seatbacks, no one bats an eye. But spend $9200 on ceramic brakes and all of a sudden you're a tool of marketing hype and someone is in your face about it. I don't quite get it.
Aside from the larger diameter, Porsche says that the composition of the Gen III PCCB's have been "completely revised" with a "significantly higher proportion of ceramic material" in the rotors than the previous generation. Wear resistance has been "greatly increased, even under extremely high loads". I don't have numbers or specifics; just quoting Porsche's product info.
I haven't run the car at track speeds yet, but for normal fast driving the PCCB's have terrific feel, are easy to modulate, and great initial bite even when cold. There is absolutely no squeal and dust is much, much less than other Porsche brakes I've owned to the point of being virtually non-existent. They look tremendous behind those wheels. Based on my experience so far, the brakes are the best I've ever had on a road car.
I can't speak objectively about whether the lighter weight makes a difference in ride or handling because I haven't driven a GT3 with standard brakes back to back. But I thought the comment made earlier regarding light versus heavy wheels was interesting. I've seen many past comments on RL about how a 6 or 7 pound lighter wheel has improved the handling on someone's car. If that's true, why is it that all of sudden equally lighter brakes don't have the same effect and you can't tell the difference?
For a car that will be tracked heavily, I can see where wear and replacement expense would be a concern. People have to evaluate how they are going to use their car and choose their options accordingly. But there is nothing inherently right or wrong about choosing PCCB's, IMHO. If they float your boat, and their advantages are important to you, then get them. If they don't fit how you will use the car, and their advantages aren't worth the cost to you then don't.
I must say though, that anyone who is ready to spend $150K on a new GT3, or $180K on a new RS, given that most people are perfectly happy with a $30K car, should be very understanding of why someone might be motivated to spend extra money on special brakes.
Aside from the larger diameter, Porsche says that the composition of the Gen III PCCB's have been "completely revised" with a "significantly higher proportion of ceramic material" in the rotors than the previous generation. Wear resistance has been "greatly increased, even under extremely high loads". I don't have numbers or specifics; just quoting Porsche's product info.
I haven't run the car at track speeds yet, but for normal fast driving the PCCB's have terrific feel, are easy to modulate, and great initial bite even when cold. There is absolutely no squeal and dust is much, much less than other Porsche brakes I've owned to the point of being virtually non-existent. They look tremendous behind those wheels. Based on my experience so far, the brakes are the best I've ever had on a road car.
I can't speak objectively about whether the lighter weight makes a difference in ride or handling because I haven't driven a GT3 with standard brakes back to back. But I thought the comment made earlier regarding light versus heavy wheels was interesting. I've seen many past comments on RL about how a 6 or 7 pound lighter wheel has improved the handling on someone's car. If that's true, why is it that all of sudden equally lighter brakes don't have the same effect and you can't tell the difference?
For a car that will be tracked heavily, I can see where wear and replacement expense would be a concern. People have to evaluate how they are going to use their car and choose their options accordingly. But there is nothing inherently right or wrong about choosing PCCB's, IMHO. If they float your boat, and their advantages are important to you, then get them. If they don't fit how you will use the car, and their advantages aren't worth the cost to you then don't.
I must say though, that anyone who is ready to spend $150K on a new GT3, or $180K on a new RS, given that most people are perfectly happy with a $30K car, should be very understanding of why someone might be motivated to spend extra money on special brakes.
"But I thought the comment made earlier regarding light versus heavy wheels was interesting. I've seen many past comments on RL about how a 6 or 7 pound lighter wheel has improved the handling on someone's car. If that's true, why is it that all of sudden equally lighter brakes don't have the same effect and you can't tell the difference?"
Emotional yes. But here is why to me this is so straightforward:
Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion. But they are not entitled to their own facts. Facts are facts. One cannot argue physics. It is what it is. Inertia has a real effect. Lower mass has less inertial effect than higher mass. Period. End of story. If you don't believe it, do your own experiment. Steadily increase the mass of your wheel/brake/tire combination. Then steadily decrease the mass of your wheel/tire/brake combination. Graph objective and subjective results. Your results will be the same as everyone else's--because that is science. Whether or not you think your wife is prettier, or your dad is smarter (I know, sexist)-- well that's not science. The opinions will be as scattered as those on this thread. But science and facts? Well, it is what it has been shown to be--what it is.
Emotional yes. But here is why to me this is so straightforward:
Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion. But they are not entitled to their own facts. Facts are facts. One cannot argue physics. It is what it is. Inertia has a real effect. Lower mass has less inertial effect than higher mass. Period. End of story. If you don't believe it, do your own experiment. Steadily increase the mass of your wheel/brake/tire combination. Then steadily decrease the mass of your wheel/tire/brake combination. Graph objective and subjective results. Your results will be the same as everyone else's--because that is science. Whether or not you think your wife is prettier, or your dad is smarter (I know, sexist)-- well that's not science. The opinions will be as scattered as those on this thread. But science and facts? Well, it is what it has been shown to be--what it is.
PCCBs have traditionally been half the weight of steels BUT with the huge size difference of these Gen3s over steels and the additional weight associated in the larger physical mass, the weight benefit will be reduced further over steels
My cliff notes after reading through this and the other numerous threads...
PCCB Pros:
* Lighter
* Better initial bite
* Less/no fade
* No brake dust
* No squealing
* For some looks better: because they have bigger rotors (fronts)
* For some looks better: because the calipers are yellow
* For some is a badge that you paid for the best on the car
PCCB Cons:
* Past versions wore out in 4-5 track days (waiting for more data points on new version but consensus seems to be although they may last longer than the older versions they still will wear out fast when tracked relative to steel)
* Expensive to buy ($9K)
* Expensive to replace (~$20K number thrown out many times)
* Limited pad options
* Limited wheel options (when going smaller than stock wheel size)
* For some looks worse: because they don't like yellow and prefer the red calipers
Various Arguments:
* If you're paying this much for the car, why not get the best?
* If money is no concern and you have no issues slapping down $20K after some track days, then PCCB the way to go
* If you're mainly a street driver, then PCCB should last and decision comes down to whether you want to pay for it and/or like the bling
* If you track a few times per year, then PCCB decision down to whether you can put down $20K every year or couple years to replace them
* If you track many times per year and don't fall into the money not an issue category above, then probably not a good idea as PCCB will wear out quick
I'm in the "street with very limited track days" group so I think I'm going for PCCB. Note FWIW, I don't like yellow but no choice unless I'm willing to paint them which I'm not due to effect on resale value.
PCCB Pros:
* Lighter
* Better initial bite
* Less/no fade
* No brake dust
* No squealing
* For some looks better: because they have bigger rotors (fronts)
* For some looks better: because the calipers are yellow
* For some is a badge that you paid for the best on the car
PCCB Cons:
* Past versions wore out in 4-5 track days (waiting for more data points on new version but consensus seems to be although they may last longer than the older versions they still will wear out fast when tracked relative to steel)
* Expensive to buy ($9K)
* Expensive to replace (~$20K number thrown out many times)
* Limited pad options
* Limited wheel options (when going smaller than stock wheel size)
* For some looks worse: because they don't like yellow and prefer the red calipers
Various Arguments:
* If you're paying this much for the car, why not get the best?
* If money is no concern and you have no issues slapping down $20K after some track days, then PCCB the way to go
* If you're mainly a street driver, then PCCB should last and decision comes down to whether you want to pay for it and/or like the bling
* If you track a few times per year, then PCCB decision down to whether you can put down $20K every year or couple years to replace them
* If you track many times per year and don't fall into the money not an issue category above, then probably not a good idea as PCCB will wear out quick
I'm in the "street with very limited track days" group so I think I'm going for PCCB. Note FWIW, I don't like yellow but no choice unless I'm willing to paint them which I'm not due to effect on resale value.
Furthermore, if performance is paramount and money is no object, smart people would buy the steel set up and order a set of Movits... True carbons that are claimed to go a lifetime but I have no doubt they would give you 100k km of trouble free track duty at the same price as a replacement set of PCCBS... Just saying...
01-22-2014, 09:47 AM
#65
Rennlist Member
01-22-2014, 10:32 AM
#67
Nordschleife Master
01-22-2014, 10:47 AM
#68
Nordschleife Master
It's too bad Porsche doesn't offer a full carbon option like the movit rotors. That would be a fantastic option. However, given that the full carbon rotors weigh more than the laminate type Porsche use and cost more, I can see why not. You'd lose the marketing of the big weight advantage, and the vast majority of their customers will never wear through the laminate type of carbon rotor. It's too bad they can't cater more to the track enthusiast. 
I still find it very disappointing that representatives at the PSDS would oversell the PCCB rotors to customers at the school by stating that PCCB would last forever even with track use, and then 2 years later retract those statements in a bulletin mailed out to customers after the fact. This is why I won't trust any marketing about the gen 3 rotors until proven.
One last thing, the PCCB setup on the 991 has larger rotors and calipers than the standard setup. This means the weight difference is not as large as they were in the 997s. On the 987 platform, the PCCB setup bumped up the calipers and rotor size as well. I recall someone quoting that the weight differential was only 7 pounds total in that situation.
I still find it very disappointing that representatives at the PSDS would oversell the PCCB rotors to customers at the school by stating that PCCB would last forever even with track use, and then 2 years later retract those statements in a bulletin mailed out to customers after the fact. This is why I won't trust any marketing about the gen 3 rotors until proven.
One last thing, the PCCB setup on the 991 has larger rotors and calipers than the standard setup. This means the weight difference is not as large as they were in the 997s. On the 987 platform, the PCCB setup bumped up the calipers and rotor size as well. I recall someone quoting that the weight differential was only 7 pounds total in that situation.
Last edited by orthojoe; 01-22-2014 at 11:05 AM.
01-22-2014, 11:05 AM
#69
01-22-2014, 11:13 AM
#70
Nordschleife Master
http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d7506
Kidding!!!
01-22-2014, 11:56 AM
#71
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01-22-2014, 12:25 PM
#72
Yes. That is Salter of Salter-Harris. He died about a year ago but he was a very "interesting" person to work with. And btw Joe, I've cancelled your next case!
P.S. At 6'3" 280 lbs. and 40 years of playing hockey my grip strength is quite good....the surgeons RARELY argue with me.
P.S. At 6'3" 280 lbs. and 40 years of playing hockey my grip strength is quite good....the surgeons RARELY argue with me.
01-22-2014, 12:37 PM
#73
01-22-2014, 01:30 PM
#74
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There is a exotic car track experience 996 TT in Texas with a set of 350/350 MovIt CER rotors that has been on the car for more than 5 years. Exact mileage is unknown but if I recall he stated he is running the car 100 + miles a week with no rotor wear. Other than that I believe there are a few owner on the Rennlist with kits and or rotors with excess of 50 track days again with zero wear on the rotors.
01-22-2014, 01:34 PM
#75
Nordschleife Master
Yes. That is Salter of Salter-Harris. He died about a year ago but he was a very "interesting" person to work with. And btw Joe, I've cancelled your next case! P.S. At 6'3" 280 lbs. and 40 years of playing hockey my grip strength is quite good....the surgeons RARELY argue with me.
I'm guess I'm one of the ones dumb enough to argue with you. Lol.
