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To PCCB or not PCCB

 
Old 01-21-2014, 06:22 PM
  #46  
Bacura
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Well Joe. We clearly don't speak the same language so I'll just pull out of this. I wonder if you are an orthopedic surgeon.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:34 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by race7117 View Post
"Kidding aside does anyone know what exactly has improved from Gen 2 to Gen 3 other than the surface fractures visible on the rotors? "

I believe that they are built for better track endurance (obviously questionable), and also easier to swap out for steels for track days and re-place the PCCBs when ready for resale, maintenance. Again only what I have read, and asked reps at NAIAS. Dealers love the PCCBs for resale and trade in value and that is about the only consistent thing I have seen with the PCCBs. I didn't like them for the manual gearbox as it made it harder to heel and toe (foot was further away from accelerator) but I ordered them on the 991 GT3 we shall see in a few months!!
I'm looking at what changed in the composition of the rotor. Why will be be better for track endurance.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:46 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Bacura View Post
Forgive my ignorance. Are F1 brakes steel or carbon ceramic? .
F1 brakes are not carbon ceramic; certainly not the type that comes on porsches and fiats. I believe they are full carbon.
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:42 PM
  #49  
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PCCB's cause of no brake dust?

Really?
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:16 PM
  #50  
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Sorry eurotom, of course, long day and I wasn't paying attention. The reps at NAIAS were not specific but mentioned that the PCCB brakes from the 2013 Supercup series were instrumental in the new advances. Possible processing procedures. I was impressed with the response to people switching out the brakes and Porsche thus making it "Easier" to do so for track use.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:56 PM
  #51  
Mike in CA
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Originally Posted by Hoopumpers View Post
Mike, you actually own the dang car. What can you tell us about the PCCBs?
I hesitate to jump into this because it seems obvious that for some reason this subject elicits a great deal of emotion. If someone spends an extra $5500 on PTS in tangerine orange and an extra $4000 on leather dash and seatbacks, no one bats an eye. But spend $9200 on ceramic brakes and all of a sudden you're a tool of marketing hype and someone is in your face about it. I don't quite get it.

Aside from the larger diameter, Porsche says that the composition of the Gen III PCCB's have been "completely revised" with a "significantly higher proportion of ceramic material" in the rotors than the previous generation. Wear resistance has been "greatly increased, even under extremely high loads". I don't have numbers or specifics; just quoting Porsche's product info.

I haven't run the car at track speeds yet, but for normal fast driving the PCCB's have terrific feel, are easy to modulate, and great initial bite even when cold. There is absolutely no squeal and dust is much, much less than other Porsche brakes I've owned to the point of being virtually non-existent. They look tremendous behind those wheels. Based on my experience so far, the brakes are the best I've ever had on a road car.

I can't speak objectively about whether the lighter weight makes a difference in ride or handling because I haven't driven a GT3 with standard brakes back to back. But I thought the comment made earlier regarding light versus heavy wheels was interesting. I've seen many past comments on RL about how a 6 or 7 pound lighter wheel has improved the handling on someone's car. If that's true, why is it that all of sudden equally lighter brakes don't have the same effect and you can't tell the difference?

For a car that will be tracked heavily, I can see where wear and replacement expense would be a concern. People have to evaluate how they are going to use their car and choose their options accordingly. But there is nothing inherently right or wrong about choosing PCCB's, IMHO. If they float your boat, and their advantages are important to you, then get them. If they don't fit how you will use the car, and their advantages aren't worth the cost to you then don't.

I must say though, that anyone who is ready to spend $150K on a new GT3, or $180K on a new RS, given that most people are perfectly happy with a $30K car, should be very understanding of why someone might be motivated to spend extra money on special brakes.
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:11 PM
  #52  
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PCCB = Porsche Cars and Coffee Brakes
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:14 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Bacura View Post
Well Joe. We clearly don't speak the same language so I'll just pull out of this. I wonder if you are an orthopedic surgeon.
LOL, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but yes, I am. Cue the 'bone doc' jokes.

If you are saying that we speak different languages because we are looking at the pccb debate from totally different sides, I would agree. I'm not saying that one side is the 'right' side or the 'wrong' side. There are just two sides with legitimate rationale on both sides. I tend to come out swinging when the rationale is incorrect, or when someone completely dismisses rationale that is legitimate.

I saw some 410mm PCCB the other day. The sheer size is pretty awesome and makes the 380mm rotors look kind of small in comparison. Even if they last twice as long on the track, it just won't work for my intended use. I would totally pay for PCCB if they last forever on track like the movits supposedly do.
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:00 PM
  #54  
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I chose not to select PCCB on my 7.1 order and this was the single biggest mistake I made. I just hated the guys with the yellow calipers, lighter mass and no dust! I'm not making the same mistake twice.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:09 PM
  #55  
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"But I thought the comment made earlier regarding light versus heavy wheels was interesting. I've seen many past comments on RL about how a 6 or 7 pound lighter wheel has improved the handling on someone's car. If that's true, why is it that all of sudden equally lighter brakes don't have the same effect and you can't tell the difference?"



Emotional yes. But here is why to me this is so straightforward:

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion. But they are not entitled to their own facts. Facts are facts. One cannot argue physics. It is what it is. Inertia has a real effect. Lower mass has less inertial effect than higher mass. Period. End of story. If you don't believe it, do your own experiment. Steadily increase the mass of your wheel/brake/tire combination. Then steadily decrease the mass of your wheel/tire/brake combination. Graph objective and subjective results. Your results will be the same as everyone else's--because that is science. Whether or not you think your wife is prettier, or your dad is smarter (I know, sexist)-- well that's not science. The opinions will be as scattered as those on this thread. But science and facts? Well, it is what it has been shown to be--what it is.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:55 PM
  #56  
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Soooo. I've learned that I'm leaving steelies on my GT3 and wondering how to get ceramics on my F10 m5. The white wheels suck with brake dust
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:33 AM
  #57  
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My cliff notes after reading through this and the other numerous threads...

PCCB Pros:
* Lighter
* Better initial bite
* Less/no fade
* No brake dust
* No squealing
* For some looks better: because they have bigger rotors (fronts)
* For some looks better: because the calipers are yellow
* For some is a badge that you paid for the best on the car

PCCB Cons:
* Past versions wore out in 4-5 track days (waiting for more data points on new version but consensus seems to be although they may last longer than the older versions they still will wear out fast when tracked relative to steel)
* Expensive to buy ($9K)
* Expensive to replace (~$20K number thrown out many times)
* Limited pad options
* Limited wheel options (when going smaller than stock wheel size)
* For some looks worse: because they don't like yellow and prefer the red calipers

Various Arguments:
* If you're paying this much for the car, why not get the best?
* If money is no concern and you have no issues slapping down $20K after some track days, then PCCB the way to go
* If you're mainly a street driver, then PCCB should last and decision comes down to whether you want to pay for it and/or like the bling
* If you track a few times per year, then PCCB decision down to whether you can put down $20K every year or couple years to replace them
* If you track many times per year and don't fall into the money not an issue category above, then probably not a good idea as PCCB will wear out quick

I'm in the "street with very limited track days" group so I think I'm going for PCCB. Note FWIW, I don't like yellow but no choice unless I'm willing to paint them which I'm not due to effect on resale value.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:39 AM
  #58  
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Zero911 and Mike in CA: well said

Bacura: we're just a fun-loving bunch of Porsche enthusiasts...no need to get your shorts in a twist. I feel like we all just need a big group hug after this thread.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:43 AM
  #59  
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Please 'sticky' zero911s excellent summary so we don't have to go through this again over and over.

Last edited by orthojoe; 01-22-2014 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:48 AM
  #60  
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Zero911 summary should be set as a default response to all future PCCB threads.

I'd really like to see data on what "improvements"
We're made from gen 1-3 rotors.
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