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991 Harness Bar

Old 12-19-2013, 08:33 AM
  #16  
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Sorry. I thought it was pretty funny.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BGB Motorsports View Post
Folks,

A few items to add in response to a few thoughts raised:

1. We would never assume anyone would put any child or passenger back there and only ever considered it would be a consenting adult riding to the corner-store during a DE weekend.
2. The reasons for not having an elaborate x-style union were (in order of importance to what we believe were the consumer's wishes): A.) increased rearview spectrum B.) usage of the rear seat areas as storage
3. The entire intention of the x-union is to anchor everything behind the main hoop to a central point, but look at these pieces by themselves. 90% of these "hoops" on the market bolt to the factory seatbelt holes. Ours is no different. adding an elaborate X-design to something bolted with 4 bolts does not reduce chassis flex or increase rigidity, so why block your vision and destroy your cargo room putting one in there?

I think that you guys misunderstood me though or misunderstood what is written on the web site; we aren't saying x-braces make "hoops" less rigid. We are just saying that aren't necessary when they aren't anchoring a main hoop that is welded to the unibody.

My source of frustration is with all of these 4-point bars, hoops, whatever, and the false level of security people have when they think something that does not go forward of the driver will protect in a roll over. I think that all of us agree that if it's going to really really protect us, it needs to A.) provide roll over protection forward of the driver in the event of an A-pillar collapse B.) be anchored to the car with something more than just half a dozen bolts and nuts. In my short 10 years, I have seen some pretty crazy roll overs but on 2 or 3 occasions, when the car has landed on its roof, it has come to rest inverted on some sort of tire wall, k-rail, jersey barrier, whatever, with the a-pillars collapsed.

Maybe no one agrees with me and we are all entitled to our own opinion but if I am installing something that I think will protect me in an end over end rollover, the fact that it's sitting 6" behind me makes me think that my eggs and my groceries in the back are safe, but i'm still exposed.
In principle, the strength of a 'roll bar' in the event of a roll will depend on the overall configuration (space frame compromised of adjacent 'triangles' is best, hence desirability of cross-bracing), tubing diameter and wall thickness, tubing material, residual stresses and strains from bending and welding, strength of connections (bolts and/or welds), and interaction with the car itself. Under impact conditions, the failure mode of a given roll bar/car system could be determined through structural analysis, but it's not easy, and I suspect that's rarely done (though I suspect Porsche did it for their clubsport package).

In the absence of that analysis, alternate means to evaluate the system are (a) judgment and (b) review of test/crash data, the latter being far preferable. My own data set, even adding what I've heard from others, is pretty small. With Porsches, here are the outcomes I've seen or heard of with rolls:

- No roll bar/cage, and the roof doesn't cave.

- Roll bar present, but not used because the roof doesn't cave.

- Roll bar present and prevents caving of the roof locally, A-pillar(s) cave, but roll bar still protects the driver by keeping the roof high enough over the driver's head.

- Roll cage present and driver is protected.

Again, my data is limited, but I've not seen or heard of these cases:

- Driver injured due to A-pillar caving despite roll bar doing its job locally.

- Roll bar itself failing.

- Bolted roll cage failing.

If others can report what they've seen and heard, maybe we can collectively get a better sense of what really works and doesn't.
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:26 AM
  #18  
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All of that data seems pretty sharp to me. I think that unfortunately, the only way to do real research would be to look at every single roll-over case individually and look at what failed and what didn't. I can only speak to our harness bar and tell you that our single biggest focus was on the rigidity of the cross bar and it's ability to do what it is there for and that is to not bend or break where the shoulder -harnesses are anchored and the car has a head-on impact.

We can probably bench-race this until the cows come home but maybe I'm just very old school in my thinking; to me, 4-point "harness bars" are show bars and we don't represent them as adequate rollover protection and usually suggest a 6-point or a weld-in if we don't want anything left to chance. Maybe in the history of DE and racing, an A-pillar has never collapsed to the part of injuring the driver. That doesn't mean that it provides the same level of roll-over protection, does it? Just because people aren't getting crushed by a-pillars at DE events doesn't mean it can't happen.

Trying to find a right answer to this question is probably like asking someone if they think they should solder or butt-connect. We all have our opinions. I'm just way too hesitant to advertise these things as roll-bar when they aren't roll anything. I have seen "4-point roll-bars" bolted to the new 981/991 aluminum floors in multiple points and I don't think that's adequate either.
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Old 03-19-2015, 08:30 PM
  #19  
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Orbit Racing sent pics of this most recent customer install for a 991 GT3. And to clarify, it was never intended to put a person in the back...just your oversized Ogio or Sparco gear bag that won't fit under the bonnet!
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Old 03-19-2015, 10:05 PM
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To what points of the car does the bar bolt?
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Old 04-06-2015, 01:45 AM
  #21  
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Found the answers to my own question. This harness bar bolts to the seatbelt anchors in the front, and the strut towers in the back.
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:31 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Mech33 View Post
Found the answers to my own question. This harness bar bolts to the seatbelt anchors in the front, and the strut towers in the back.
I have to apologize...you replied right after I updated the thread and I went on a hunt for some photos I took of the original Carrera S 991 that we used for the prototype and I couldn't find them...I just located them. If for any reason you found another solution, I understand entirely but in the event that you or others are curious, I have the following photos.

P.S. Yes...it's time to retire the Passport 8500 power cord!
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:40 AM
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John,

Even with the LWB seats all the way back and tilted, maybe even a little extra tilted are they far enough away from the bars?
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:58 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by TRAKCAR View Post
John,

Even with the LWB seats all the way back and tilted, maybe even a little extra tilted are they far enough away from the bars?
Yes Peter. Realizing that you're 6'4 or so, if you want I could call the folks at Orbit to confirm that we retained almost 100% of the seat track availability to accommodate even the tallest of driver.
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Old 04-06-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BGB Motorsports View Post
Yes Peter. Realizing that you're 6'4 or so, if you want I could call the folks at Orbit to confirm that we retained almost 100% of the seat track availability to accommodate even the tallest of driver.
Thank you.
Long legs, pleasantly surprised howmuch room there is in the new GT3 so I want to use that all..
I'll ask when I'm there, Rodger still working on my 964, will pick it up soon.
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Old 04-06-2015, 04:06 PM
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Since all I really want is a harness bar, this looks great to me. Love the full view out the rear. Any chance you could post a working link to the webpage? The link in the first post doesn't work for me. Thanks.
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:54 PM
  #27  
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Bump.
Is this product still available for sale?
If so, how would I go about getting an order placed?
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Old 04-10-2015, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by _BrakeDust_ View Post
Bump.
Is this product still available for sale?
If so, how would I go about getting an order placed?
Email John @ BGB: [email protected]
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Old 04-11-2015, 08:48 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by _BrakeDust_ View Post
Bump.
Is this product still available for sale?
If so, how would I go about getting an order placed?
Yes sir. I have a shipment of 2 981 bars and a 991 bar that I will have Wednesday. Feel free to call the shop Monday. Sorry...we have new phone numbers. Contact information is here: http://teambgb.com/contact_us.asp

We are undergoing a web site revision and will hopefully have a shopping cart function soon.

Thank you!
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Old 04-11-2015, 08:49 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Mech33 View Post
Email John @ BGB: [email protected]
Thanks for the referral Marty - much appreciated!
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