991 GT3 Sportauto Supertest - DISAPPOINTMENT!
10-18-2013, 05:10 PM
#46
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Interesting, I expressed reservations about PTV a few weeks ago, but not many people seemed to share those reservations. Could you explain why you couldn't stand it?
10-18-2013, 05:13 PM
#47
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I care little about the times. If times are that important this is probably not the right car (and yes, the TTS should be faster). What's critical is the feel. If the 991 GT3 truly proves to be twitchy at and over the limit then it's a failure in my eyes, even if it does turn 7:25s. I think that's unlikely on average, but clearly this one was, so let's see.
10-18-2013, 05:23 PM
#48
I think this is an overeaction
We've heard of 997 gt3's coming with random alignments, wooden blocks in the suspension, 15psi in the tires, and all sorts of ridiculous setup issues when driven off the showroom floor. For some reason, it seems to be very important to a lot of people that the car be able to perform at or near its best straight from the dealer lot. Thats ridiculous. At the very least, I would expect a new owner to at least confirm the alignment prior to tracking it. This car sounded like a sick car. Limp mode at 7500 rpm should have killed the test right there and then, but I guess the season is almost over and there are no other cars and that article needed to be written.
I suspect the true story of the 991 gt3 will not be really told till next spring / summer.
We've heard of 997 gt3's coming with random alignments, wooden blocks in the suspension, 15psi in the tires, and all sorts of ridiculous setup issues when driven off the showroom floor. For some reason, it seems to be very important to a lot of people that the car be able to perform at or near its best straight from the dealer lot. Thats ridiculous. At the very least, I would expect a new owner to at least confirm the alignment prior to tracking it. This car sounded like a sick car. Limp mode at 7500 rpm should have killed the test right there and then, but I guess the season is almost over and there are no other cars and that article needed to be written.
I suspect the true story of the 991 gt3 will not be really told till next spring / summer.
10-18-2013, 05:24 PM
#49
Instructor
This car could be almost "evil" on the track or at the limit...
Consider: Low speed corner, RWS helping you with opposite toe (i.e. front headed right, rear headed left). You exceed the slip angle and the RWS neutralizes the toe to zero again. The car is no longer helping you, and feels dramatically worse.
High speed corner, RWS is in "lane change mode" and again, at the limit, goes to neutral, and the behavior no longer helps you and now oversteers.
This is an interesting engineering problem. What would you have the ECU do with RWS at the exceeded limit?
Consider: Low speed corner, RWS helping you with opposite toe (i.e. front headed right, rear headed left). You exceed the slip angle and the RWS neutralizes the toe to zero again. The car is no longer helping you, and feels dramatically worse.
High speed corner, RWS is in "lane change mode" and again, at the limit, goes to neutral, and the behavior no longer helps you and now oversteers.
This is an interesting engineering problem. What would you have the ECU do with RWS at the exceeded limit?
10-18-2013, 05:39 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
This car could be almost "evil" on the track or at the limit...
Consider: Low speed corner, RWS helping you with opposite toe (i.e. front headed right, rear headed left). You exceed the slip angle and the RWS neutralizes the toe to zero again. The car is no longer helping you, and feels dramatically worse.
High speed corner, RWS is in "lane change mode" and again, at the limit, goes to neutral, and the behavior no longer helps you and now oversteers.
This is an interesting engineering problem. What would you have the ECU do with RWS at the exceeded limit?
Consider: Low speed corner, RWS helping you with opposite toe (i.e. front headed right, rear headed left). You exceed the slip angle and the RWS neutralizes the toe to zero again. The car is no longer helping you, and feels dramatically worse.
High speed corner, RWS is in "lane change mode" and again, at the limit, goes to neutral, and the behavior no longer helps you and now oversteers.
This is an interesting engineering problem. What would you have the ECU do with RWS at the exceeded limit?
10-18-2013, 05:43 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
For comparison with other cars, SA gives final points to their test. Here is their result on believe on a 100 point scale. They like the car.
Last edited by Nick; 03-22-2014 at 01:44 PM.
10-18-2013, 05:59 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
This fourm makes me smile sometimes. Plenty of sh*t stirring but its all good.
Below is the video of Uwe Alzen one of the DTM guys and a very experienced Ring driver taking the new GT3 around a damp lap of the track. If you can understand German you will know via translation that hes praising the car and really impressed with its handling over the previous GT3 generations. He believes its the quickest yet. Whats changed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKUV8...ature=youtu.be
Maybe SportAuto had a car with poor camber and alignment. Perhaps their car was a bit down on power.
Maybe the issues Porsche have is with the RWS unit n the 991 GT3 not the engibe throwing rods as everyone has been led to believe LOL! The TT/S use a slightly different system (for 4WD).
Other interesting questions - why would Porsche allow SportAuto a car with a overheating PDK geabox and the ability tro throw a rod through the crank case? Would they let them put it on the Dyno? Porsche know what SA do with these tests?
SA have a different driver now than last year and in the past for these tests? Are we comparing two different drivers?
There is nothing surprising with the result here. SA are typically 5-6 seconds slower than the factory times as Porsche Collector and others have been telling us form the beginning. The times are between than the outgoing GT3RS and almost as good as the 4.0RS. With any other generation og GT3 that would be a huge win.
What makes no sense at all is
1). EVO got better results on short course with GT3 than MP12C and all of their testing indicated it would be very quick on track. Not scientific just seat of pants stuff by Jethro B.
2). Uwe Alzens lap of Ring and commentary.
3). Engineers comments on stability and tyre management and consistent speed and good braking (personal sourse).
4). Many magazines reviews on acceleration and braking...
Below is the video of Uwe Alzen one of the DTM guys and a very experienced Ring driver taking the new GT3 around a damp lap of the track. If you can understand German you will know via translation that hes praising the car and really impressed with its handling over the previous GT3 generations. He believes its the quickest yet. Whats changed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKUV8...ature=youtu.be
Maybe SportAuto had a car with poor camber and alignment. Perhaps their car was a bit down on power.
Maybe the issues Porsche have is with the RWS unit n the 991 GT3 not the engibe throwing rods as everyone has been led to believe LOL! The TT/S use a slightly different system (for 4WD).
Other interesting questions - why would Porsche allow SportAuto a car with a overheating PDK geabox and the ability tro throw a rod through the crank case? Would they let them put it on the Dyno? Porsche know what SA do with these tests?
SA have a different driver now than last year and in the past for these tests? Are we comparing two different drivers?
There is nothing surprising with the result here. SA are typically 5-6 seconds slower than the factory times as Porsche Collector and others have been telling us form the beginning. The times are between than the outgoing GT3RS and almost as good as the 4.0RS. With any other generation og GT3 that would be a huge win.
What makes no sense at all is
1). EVO got better results on short course with GT3 than MP12C and all of their testing indicated it would be very quick on track. Not scientific just seat of pants stuff by Jethro B.
2). Uwe Alzens lap of Ring and commentary.
3). Engineers comments on stability and tyre management and consistent speed and good braking (personal sourse).
4). Many magazines reviews on acceleration and braking...
10-18-2013, 06:14 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
couldnt agree more..but the details are striking: despite being a 991 chassis it doesnt have higher speeds at the evasion tests either..under braking neither. The 991 GT3 cant really beat a 997.2 GT3RS...this is more or less fact now. Is it faster then a 4.0? For sure not...
I think Porsche needs to "shut up" more..I dont want to sound unpolite..but there would have never been the problem if they said "its between 3.8RS and 4.0RS"..woud have fit perfectly.
Compare the situation to "manager talking to employees"..whats better : a) making them false promises about high wage increases or b) telling them, the situation is not easy, lets stay realistic.
I think Porsche needs to "shut up" more..I dont want to sound unpolite..but there would have never been the problem if they said "its between 3.8RS and 4.0RS"..woud have fit perfectly.
Compare the situation to "manager talking to employees"..whats better : a) making them false promises about high wage increases or b) telling them, the situation is not easy, lets stay realistic.
We call it limp mode :-)
This fourm makes me smile sometimes. Plenty of sh*t stirring but its all good.
Maybe SportAuto had a car with poor camber and alignment. Perhaps their car was a bit down on power.
Maybe the issues Porsche have is with the RWS unit n the 991 GT3 not the engibe throwing rods as everyone has been led to believe LOL! The TT/S use a slightly different system (for 4WD).
Other interesting questions - why would Porsche allow SportAuto a car with a overheating PDK geabox and the ability tro throw a rod through the crank case? Would they let them put it on the Dyno? Porsche know what SA do with these tests?
SA have a different driver now than last year and in the past for these tests? Are we comparing two different drivers?
There is nothing surprising with the result here. SA are typically 5-6 seconds slower than the factory times as Porsche Collector and others have been telling us form the beginning. The times are between than the outgoing GT3RS and almost as good as the 4.0RS. With any other generation og GT3 that would be a huge win.
What makes no sense at all is
1). EVO got better results on short course with GT3 than MP12C and all of their testing indicated it would be very quick on track. Not scientific just seat of pants stuff by Jethro B.
2). Uwe Alzens lap of Ring and commentary.
3). Engineers comments on stability and tyre management and consistent speed and good braking (personal sourse).
4). Many magazines reviews on acceleration and braking...
Maybe SportAuto had a car with poor camber and alignment. Perhaps their car was a bit down on power.
Maybe the issues Porsche have is with the RWS unit n the 991 GT3 not the engibe throwing rods as everyone has been led to believe LOL! The TT/S use a slightly different system (for 4WD).
Other interesting questions - why would Porsche allow SportAuto a car with a overheating PDK geabox and the ability tro throw a rod through the crank case? Would they let them put it on the Dyno? Porsche know what SA do with these tests?
SA have a different driver now than last year and in the past for these tests? Are we comparing two different drivers?
There is nothing surprising with the result here. SA are typically 5-6 seconds slower than the factory times as Porsche Collector and others have been telling us form the beginning. The times are between than the outgoing GT3RS and almost as good as the 4.0RS. With any other generation og GT3 that would be a huge win.
What makes no sense at all is
1). EVO got better results on short course with GT3 than MP12C and all of their testing indicated it would be very quick on track. Not scientific just seat of pants stuff by Jethro B.
2). Uwe Alzens lap of Ring and commentary.
3). Engineers comments on stability and tyre management and consistent speed and good braking (personal sourse).
4). Many magazines reviews on acceleration and braking...
But maybe with the RWS its just too hard and too early to set the car up right?
Anyway, lets hope this test an exception but it is a bad showing for Porsche with all the guys worried about the dependability, drivability of PDK / RWS / Non raced engine guys watching.
This stuff always happens to the other guys and I would think "of course, figures". Not Porsche!
10-18-2013, 06:16 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Classic, all this discussion on how poor the car did, yet it comes in right behind the limited run GT3rs, with limp mode at 7500 rpm.
10-18-2013, 06:44 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
10-18-2013, 07:04 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
10-18-2013, 09:57 PM
#58
Drifting
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I don't know, I almost want to beg to differ on that one. Just wish there were better ways to quantify the performance advantage of the Dual Clutch doing its "CLUTCHING" compared to a "Normal" Manual transmission doing its "MANUALING" around a track or if a Laboratory.
The $64000 is IS how much more of an advantage does a Dual Clutch really have over a tradition manual?
To me and many others it is the single Component on a car that has made the sub 3.0 second 0 to 60 MPH slash 0 to 100 KPH common place.
How'd you like em Apples?
The $64000 is IS how much more of an advantage does a Dual Clutch really have over a tradition manual?
To me and many others it is the single Component on a car that has made the sub 3.0 second 0 to 60 MPH slash 0 to 100 KPH common place.
How'd you like em Apples?
10-18-2013, 10:06 PM
#59
Addict
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PDK has zero advantage on downshifts and a tiny bit on each up shift. I'd say 2 sec max on the Nurburgring (less when you factor the additional weight of PDK)
10-18-2013, 10:27 PM
#60
Three Wheelin'
ps. Unlike some other previous GT3 owners, I am not down on this car, I like it... a lot in fact (except for the PDK only part and few other minor philosophical aspects).
