Uncooked Truth: A Sad State of Manual Transmission Affairs
08-29-2013, 08:11 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
pete
but pretty sure it's not going to change anything.
08-29-2013, 09:11 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
If less than 1% of the car buyers want MT, a manufacturer should make it available as an option even though it would be expensive for the car company to do so? Of course they could make MT available at an additional cost but when they happens several in the 1% would opt not to pay so the cost gets even greater.
Finally, if less than 1% believe a MT is more fun for DD than PDK doesn't that speak volumes as to which is more fun? Or are we to have the tail wagging the dog?
Finally, if less than 1% believe a MT is more fun for DD than PDK doesn't that speak volumes as to which is more fun? Or are we to have the tail wagging the dog?
Sales metrics for M3, M5, Miata, 987-2, 997-2, 981, 991, Corvette, and others are appropriate to the topic at hand, not full-fleet statistics. (Forced) sales statistics of F cars (i.e. 458) are interesting to discussion, but they're hardly indicative. The mileage penalty differences between used F cars and used P cars is enough to make the comparison questionable, but the image of the cars and the interests of their buyers are also divergent. Not always (certainly, there are many who are open to both), but quite often. The fact that 100% of GT3s were previously manual and sold quite well is an interesting fact that must be considered, as well.
As to all of the "just move on," or "you can buy used cars" comments here and elsewhere, I really have to wonder: Is that good for our hobby, or, for that matter, an intelligent marketing decision when it's abundantly clear that there is still demand for MT in some segments? Like this one...
The only tail trying to wag the dog is the group telling other driving enthusiasts what they will like, and to live with it. My gut says PDK will continue to sell well for all the reasons you and others state. It also tells me more manual drivers will convert and never look back—but that others, like me, will spend real time with PDK and decide that, as impressive as it is, it's not for them. I've been seeing more and more response like that from readers. Certainly, their number is not statistically important (and nowhere near as statistically important as the BMW M3 numbers posted in this thread), but I think Einstein had it very right: "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." Maybe his point doesn't matter in short-term marketing, but I have to think it will in the long haul.
pete
08-29-2013, 09:18 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: sydney
Posts: 6,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dunno, you'd be amazed by what gets by anyone after reading it several times...and I certainly saw errors make it to print that made me cringe. Add up the words and characters in all the body text, captions, callouts, etc. in a magazine—and all the different ways something can be wrong, and it's amazingly easy to let something like Hans' surname go to print as Metzger. And then there's the not so small fact we're all human....
pete
pete
put so eloquently yet again! thanks.
08-29-2013, 10:35 PM
#37
08-29-2013, 10:42 PM
#38
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
PDK is boring, the track will end up looking like cayman interseries. A bunch of guys driving around in auto mode. That way they can concentrate on the track instead of having to move their fingers and pull paddles. Its faster that way anyways. So since every 100th of a second is now paramount at a DE everyone must choose the fastest mode possible. I mean thats the same logic for pdk right, because every 100th of a second counts getting to cars and coffee?
08-29-2013, 10:49 PM
#39
Race Director
LOL. Between arthritis references and the millionth (ding-ding-ding we have a winner!) C&C put down, it seems the insult cupboard is bare.
Perfect examples of why this discussion continues to be so contentious.
Perfect examples of why this discussion continues to be so contentious.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 08-30-2013 at 12:03 AM.
08-29-2013, 11:28 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
This article is so far beyond hypocritical that we need a new term. How can you rationally juxtapose this direct quote "Well you know what, Franz, then take all that power and torque out of the car and let me enjoy all that I can" with the availability of a regular, brand new, nonGT3 991 with a manual trans?
Just buy the slower (you all admit you would trade lap times for a third pedal) manual, regular 991 and qwitcherbichin already.
Just buy the slower (you all admit you would trade lap times for a third pedal) manual, regular 991 and qwitcherbichin already.
08-29-2013, 11:38 PM
#41
I'm glad that I follow this forum because you learn something every day. I wasn't aware that adjectives and nouns beginning with "A" require capitalization.
08-30-2013, 12:40 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Red herring and bandwagon fallacies. Fortunately, already corrected by others.
Sales metrics for M3, M5, Miata, 987-2, 997-2, 981, 991, Corvette, and others are appropriate to the topic at hand, not full-fleet statistics. (Forced) sales statistics of F cars (i.e. 458) are interesting to discussion, but they're hardly indicative. The mileage penalty differences between used F cars and used P cars is enough to make the comparison questionable, but the image of the cars and the interests of their buyers are also divergent. Not always (certainly, there are many who are open to both), but quite often. The fact that 100% of GT3s were previously manual and sold quite well is an interesting fact that must be considered, as well.
As to all of the "just move on," or "you can buy used cars" comments here and elsewhere, I really have to wonder: Is that good for our hobby, or, for that matter, an intelligent marketing decision when it's abundantly clear that there is still demand for MT in some segments? Like this one...
The only tail trying to wag the dog is the group telling other driving enthusiasts what they will like, and to live with it. My gut says PDK will continue to sell well for all the reasons you and others state. It also tells me more manual drivers will convert and never look back—but that others, like me, will spend real time with PDK and decide that, as impressive as it is, it's not for them. I've been seeing more and more response like that from readers. Certainly, their number is not statistically important (and nowhere near as statistically important as the BMW M3 numbers posted in this thread), but I think Einstein had it very right: "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." Maybe his point doesn't matter in short-term marketing, but I have to think it will in the long haul.
pete
Sales metrics for M3, M5, Miata, 987-2, 997-2, 981, 991, Corvette, and others are appropriate to the topic at hand, not full-fleet statistics. (Forced) sales statistics of F cars (i.e. 458) are interesting to discussion, but they're hardly indicative. The mileage penalty differences between used F cars and used P cars is enough to make the comparison questionable, but the image of the cars and the interests of their buyers are also divergent. Not always (certainly, there are many who are open to both), but quite often. The fact that 100% of GT3s were previously manual and sold quite well is an interesting fact that must be considered, as well.
As to all of the "just move on," or "you can buy used cars" comments here and elsewhere, I really have to wonder: Is that good for our hobby, or, for that matter, an intelligent marketing decision when it's abundantly clear that there is still demand for MT in some segments? Like this one...
The only tail trying to wag the dog is the group telling other driving enthusiasts what they will like, and to live with it. My gut says PDK will continue to sell well for all the reasons you and others state. It also tells me more manual drivers will convert and never look back—but that others, like me, will spend real time with PDK and decide that, as impressive as it is, it's not for them. I've been seeing more and more response like that from readers. Certainly, their number is not statistically important (and nowhere near as statistically important as the BMW M3 numbers posted in this thread), but I think Einstein had it very right: "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." Maybe his point doesn't matter in short-term marketing, but I have to think it will in the long haul.
pete
It has been said the you can always identify a forward looking visionary leader by the number of arrows in his back. AP has several. Pete as the editor of a fine Porsche magazine, which do you want to be for your magazine. A forward leader or one shooting the arrows? Sadly, today as with MT your readers are being held back by editors shooting arrows instead of leading.
A great physicist said A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
This is where are are today with the MT/PDK arguments.
08-30-2013, 01:03 PM
#44
Race Car
PDK is boring, the track will end up looking like cayman interseries. A bunch of guys driving around in auto mode. That way they can concentrate on the track instead of having to move their fingers and pull paddles. Its faster that way anyways. So since every 100th of a second is now paramount at a DE everyone must choose the fastest mode possible. I mean thats the same logic for pdk right, because every 100th of a second counts getting to cars and coffee?
08-30-2013, 01:06 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
^^^ This is where I think you're wrong! If AP is really the enthusiast everyone is describing,he would've at least given an option. He was forced by higher powers(VW),whether some will agree or not. An enthusiast that calls flappy paddles worthy of a grandma CAN NOT and I repeat CAN NOT change his opinion completely overnight!!! He might agree a PDK-S should be offered because it's faster and the car will have a better chance of keeping up with the competitors in terms of lap times,but as an enthusiast and knowing this car will be mostly driven on the street,he would've pushed for a manual option beyond reasonable doubt,IMO!