Automobile Magazine Article - Porsche's Plan for the Future (?)
08-23-2013, 01:49 PM
#16
Race Director
Corvette hasn't figured out how to build a DCT that works in their car. 
Maybe if Porsche was using a large displacement V8 with monster torque instead of a relatively peaky high revving flat 6 their decision might have been different. Given the total package that he was developing, I'm inclined to think AP knew what he was doing.
Maybe if Porsche was using a large displacement V8 with monster torque instead of a relatively peaky high revving flat 6 their decision might have been different. Given the total package that he was developing, I'm inclined to think AP knew what he was doing.
08-23-2013, 02:31 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
I think a manual RS would solidify it as a hard core minimalistic car, not suitable for everyone.
I'm in disagreement with you that is would be much slower with a manual. less weight and power along with more tire would make it still faster than a PDK-S car.
It might just be marginally faster and you would perhaps need a pro driver to eke it out of the car, but it sure would be a lot more involving and fun.
Id pay more just for a manual. The rest of the RS stuff is just gravy.
I'm in disagreement with you that is would be much slower with a manual. less weight and power along with more tire would make it still faster than a PDK-S car.
It might just be marginally faster and you would perhaps need a pro driver to eke it out of the car, but it sure would be a lot more involving and fun.
Id pay more just for a manual. The rest of the RS stuff is just gravy.
Make it lighter,manual box alone is lighter than PDK-S,better aero,4.0 L displacement,35HP more and it will be fast.
Offer manual as an option at extra cost and PDK-S standard for lap times.
The difference between PDK-S equipped car and Manual will be very small in lap times.
08-23-2013, 03:18 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Corvette hasn't figured out how to build a DCT that works in their car.
Maybe if Porsche was using a large displacement V8 with monster torque instead of a relatively peaky high revving flat 6 their decision might have been different. Given the total package that he was developing, I'm inclined to think AP knew what he was doing.
Maybe if Porsche was using a large displacement V8 with monster torque instead of a relatively peaky high revving flat 6 their decision might have been different. Given the total package that he was developing, I'm inclined to think AP knew what he was doing.
08-23-2013, 05:37 PM
#20
Drifting
from a brand perspective, it would not make sense to make the more expensive and more hard-core, and faster gt3 RS slower by giving it a manual. This would invalidate the PDK philosophy on regular gt3 also, and destroy the credibility of the original decision to abandon the manual. Porsche would be left with some convoluted logic and Mis-pricing /model positioning issues to explain. Technologically, the PDK is coded in very tightly with the TC, stability control and other performance functions of the car... Again, it would be a much slower car with software which would remain handicapped by the lack of integration.
Sometimes we can speculate, but sometimes a logical person can safely eliminate outlandish possibilities. The manual RS is one of these.
Sometimes we can speculate, but sometimes a logical person can safely eliminate outlandish possibilities. The manual RS is one of these.
I think a manual RS would solidify it as a hard core minimalistic car, not suitable for everyone.
I'm in disagreement with you that is would be much slower with a manual. less weight and power along with more tire would make it still faster than a PDK-S car.
It might just be marginally faster and you would perhaps need a pro driver to eke it out of the car, but it sure would be a lot more involving and fun.
Id pay more just for a manual. The rest of the RS stuff is just gravy.
I'm in disagreement with you that is would be much slower with a manual. less weight and power along with more tire would make it still faster than a PDK-S car.
It might just be marginally faster and you would perhaps need a pro driver to eke it out of the car, but it sure would be a lot more involving and fun.
Id pay more just for a manual. The rest of the RS stuff is just gravy.
I agree a manual RS would be amazing; and not for everyone... but I respectfully disagree with your assertion regarding the lack of a disadvantage.
1st you are assuming that the RS will be much lighter and more powerful than the GT3, while this is possible (we have an existence proof) we also have the example of the 7.1 RS, same engine, not *that* much lighter, some aero and
the LWFW.
I dont know what the weight diff is between the S and the TT/S bodyshell, but if the RS is based on that, they need to account for that, and I hope that does not mean a lot of expensive RS 4.0-esque CF parts ... not too mention the assuption that they can and will squeeze out any additional bhp from the RS... +15bhp would be typical... is that enough to best the PDK-S advantage?
What (AP stated) makes the difference between the PDK-S and a manual *is* the shift time, you know that while the clutch is depressed the car is not powered, 100ms vs however long it takes from clutch in-shift-clutch out will add up ... I just dont see that gap being bridged by a swift left foot, right hand and +15bhp!
game over ...
1st you are assuming that the RS will be much lighter and more powerful than the GT3, while this is possible (we have an existence proof) we also have the example of the 7.1 RS, same engine, not *that* much lighter, some aero and
the LWFW.
I dont know what the weight diff is between the S and the TT/S bodyshell, but if the RS is based on that, they need to account for that, and I hope that does not mean a lot of expensive RS 4.0-esque CF parts ... not too mention the assuption that they can and will squeeze out any additional bhp from the RS... +15bhp would be typical... is that enough to best the PDK-S advantage?
What (AP stated) makes the difference between the PDK-S and a manual *is* the shift time, you know that while the clutch is depressed the car is not powered, 100ms vs however long it takes from clutch in-shift-clutch out will add up ... I just dont see that gap being bridged by a swift left foot, right hand and +15bhp!
game over ...
Option 1: MT is an option on the GT3 RS, but it costs ~$10k or more. People will pay it, but they won't sell that many. No MT offered on regular GT3, so insistent MT fans will have to pay the price for optional MT, as well as the RS premium over the regular GT3. Still quite unlikely to happen.
Option 2: Create another model line - GT3 "America" or whatever you like - and equip it with a selection of RS bits, as well as MT. Sell it for $25-$30k more than the RS. Position it as a niche, Sonderwunsch/Exklusiv car, like the Sport Classic and Speedster. Even less likely to happen.
08-23-2013, 05:50 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I guess there is a *slim* chance that Porsche *might*, as BMW does, offer a manual transmission (in some , or all markets).
I dont think its really a matter of *how* they would package this for sale (I agree with you on the possible options/alternatives) I think its a matter of philosophy and R&D costs etc...
I think AP was pretty clear about their evaluation of a MT during the development of the GT3, and the fact that they dropped that in favor of a sole PDK-S strategy. Their only alternatives would be to develop the 7sp MT (PDK hybrid) that is available on the other 991s (NA variants) or to lash some variant of a
G50 to the new engine block.
Regardless the resulting combination has lost *all* the advantages of the PDK-S in combination with the new car's electronics. Only Barry Allen (aka "The Flash") can shift a manual transmission in 100ms, so unless they do have a larger displacement engine with a power/torque curve capable of besting a GT3 with PDK-S up their sleeves, then they will deliver an RS that is slower in all respects than the GT3, and it will cost more both to develop and to sell ...
If I were on a jury, these arguments would be enough to convince me "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the forthcoming car will be guilty of not having an MT to stir.
and ...
honestly...
The more I read, I think the more I buy into the PDK-S technology ...
which is not to say that I am in a hurry to abandon my "real" GT3!
I dont think its really a matter of *how* they would package this for sale (I agree with you on the possible options/alternatives) I think its a matter of philosophy and R&D costs etc...
I think AP was pretty clear about their evaluation of a MT during the development of the GT3, and the fact that they dropped that in favor of a sole PDK-S strategy. Their only alternatives would be to develop the 7sp MT (PDK hybrid) that is available on the other 991s (NA variants) or to lash some variant of a
G50 to the new engine block.
Regardless the resulting combination has lost *all* the advantages of the PDK-S in combination with the new car's electronics. Only Barry Allen (aka "The Flash") can shift a manual transmission in 100ms, so unless they do have a larger displacement engine with a power/torque curve capable of besting a GT3 with PDK-S up their sleeves, then they will deliver an RS that is slower in all respects than the GT3, and it will cost more both to develop and to sell ...
If I were on a jury, these arguments would be enough to convince me "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the forthcoming car will be guilty of not having an MT to stir.
and ...
honestly...
The more I read, I think the more I buy into the PDK-S technology ...
which is not to say that I am in a hurry to abandon my "real" GT3!
08-23-2013, 05:52 PM
#22
It seems to me that, through the intervention of algorithms, the PDK, or whatever a auto-manual might be called, also protects the drive train from user error, unlike a manual, and because of the protection that a auto-manual equipped car offers the manufacture that manufacture can PUSH the drive train to previously unobtainable levels of performance.
Case in point, the 911GT3. It just seems to me that it is the PDK only option that has allowed Porsche to, cost effectively in terms of eliminating warranty claims from user error, release that 9000 RPM engine to the public.
Therefore, the reduction in foreseeable warranty claims from the user errors possible with a manual transmission is a fundamental reason behind the ascension of auto-manual transmissions... and the benefit to the end user will be more incredible drive trains.
Case in point, the 911GT3. It just seems to me that it is the PDK only option that has allowed Porsche to, cost effectively in terms of eliminating warranty claims from user error, release that 9000 RPM engine to the public.
Therefore, the reduction in foreseeable warranty claims from the user errors possible with a manual transmission is a fundamental reason behind the ascension of auto-manual transmissions... and the benefit to the end user will be more incredible drive trains.
08-23-2013, 06:36 PM
#24
Race Director
Yeah, it's hard to know if the conditions were similar and if what you note is true, an extra 150+ pounds would make a difference. The 991 GT3 got to 130 first but the 4.0 pulled it after that. In a straight line HP and torque will prevail so assuming equal conditions the result isn't too surprising. Cool vid in any case.
08-23-2013, 06:50 PM
#26
Pro
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah I checked the vid and there was a passenger using a camera. Can't really tell if launch control was active or not but given what is apparent , it's still impressive with a handicap.
08-23-2013, 06:50 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Here's an example of how they could sell an MT GT3 variant.
Option 1: MT is an option on the GT3 RS, but it costs ~$10k or more. People will pay it, but they won't sell that many. No MT offered on regular GT3, so insistent MT fans will have to pay the price for optional MT, as well as the RS premium over the regular GT3. Still quite unlikely to happen.
Option 2: Create another model line - GT3 "America" or whatever you like - and equip it with a selection of RS bits, as well as MT. Sell it for $25-$30k more than the RS. Position it as a niche, Sonderwunsch/Exklusiv car, like the Sport Classic and Speedster. Even less likely to happen.
Option 1: MT is an option on the GT3 RS, but it costs ~$10k or more. People will pay it, but they won't sell that many. No MT offered on regular GT3, so insistent MT fans will have to pay the price for optional MT, as well as the RS premium over the regular GT3. Still quite unlikely to happen.
Option 2: Create another model line - GT3 "America" or whatever you like - and equip it with a selection of RS bits, as well as MT. Sell it for $25-$30k more than the RS. Position it as a niche, Sonderwunsch/Exklusiv car, like the Sport Classic and Speedster. Even less likely to happen.
There would only be a modest price increase needed to increase the profit margin.
I guess there is a *slim* chance that Porsche *might*, as BMW does, offer a manual transmission (in some , or all markets).
I dont think its really a matter of *how* they would package this for sale (I agree with you on the possible options/alternatives) I think its a matter of philosophy and R&D costs etc...
I think AP was pretty clear about their evaluation of a MT during the development of the GT3, and the fact that they dropped that in favor of a sole PDK-S strategy. Their only alternatives would be to develop the 7sp MT (PDK hybrid) that is available on the other 991s (NA variants) or to lash some variant of a
G50 to the new engine block.
Regardless the resulting combination has lost *all* the advantages of the PDK-S in combination with the new car's electronics. Only Barry Allen (aka "The Flash") can shift a manual transmission in 100ms, so unless they do have a larger displacement engine with a power/torque curve capable of besting a GT3 with PDK-S up their sleeves, then they will deliver an RS that is slower in all respects than the GT3, and it will cost more both to develop and to sell ...
If I were on a jury, these arguments would be enough to convince me "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the forthcoming car will be guilty of not having an MT to stir.
and ...
honestly...
The more I read, I think the more I buy into the PDK-S technology ...
which is not to say that I am in a hurry to abandon my "real" GT3!
I dont think its really a matter of *how* they would package this for sale (I agree with you on the possible options/alternatives) I think its a matter of philosophy and R&D costs etc...
I think AP was pretty clear about their evaluation of a MT during the development of the GT3, and the fact that they dropped that in favor of a sole PDK-S strategy. Their only alternatives would be to develop the 7sp MT (PDK hybrid) that is available on the other 991s (NA variants) or to lash some variant of a
G50 to the new engine block.
Regardless the resulting combination has lost *all* the advantages of the PDK-S in combination with the new car's electronics. Only Barry Allen (aka "The Flash") can shift a manual transmission in 100ms, so unless they do have a larger displacement engine with a power/torque curve capable of besting a GT3 with PDK-S up their sleeves, then they will deliver an RS that is slower in all respects than the GT3, and it will cost more both to develop and to sell ...
If I were on a jury, these arguments would be enough to convince me "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the forthcoming car will be guilty of not having an MT to stir.
and ...
honestly...
The more I read, I think the more I buy into the PDK-S technology ...
which is not to say that I am in a hurry to abandon my "real" GT3!
But even Lamborghini made lightweight manuals in the end for flappy only cars.. I'm keeping a candle in the window until I drive a PDK. Its possible I can learn to left foot brake, that's probably where a real lap time gain could come from that requires skill. The car would be pointless on the street but it would get me there in more comfort than a 997RS.
It seems to me that, through the intervention of algorithms, the PDK, or whatever a auto-manual might be called, also protects the drive train from user error, unlike a manual, and because of the protection that a auto-manual equipped car offers the manufacture that manufacture can PUSH the drive train to previously unobtainable levels of performance.
Case in point, the 911GT3. It just seems to me that it is the PDK only option that has allowed Porsche to, cost effectively in terms of eliminating warranty claims from user error, release that 9000 RPM engine to the public.
Therefore, the reduction in foreseeable warranty claims from the user errors possible with a manual transmission is a fundamental reason behind the ascension of auto-manual transmissions... and the benefit to the end user will be more incredible drive trains.
Case in point, the 911GT3. It just seems to me that it is the PDK only option that has allowed Porsche to, cost effectively in terms of eliminating warranty claims from user error, release that 9000 RPM engine to the public.
Therefore, the reduction in foreseeable warranty claims from the user errors possible with a manual transmission is a fundamental reason behind the ascension of auto-manual transmissions... and the benefit to the end user will be more incredible drive trains.
I've never money shifted, but my brother and some friends who are very relaxed and precise in the car have. It can happen and its $$$$ No more warranty.
This is the biggest reason I would try and learn to love and automatic.
08-23-2013, 08:38 PM
#28
Race Director
08-23-2013, 09:11 PM
#29
Race Director
so this has turned into another PDk vs stick debate?
anyway the article is full of speculation. P is banking on continued growth from Emerging Mkt countries and extrapolating the current growth can be dangerous. Just ask this guy:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...16-months.html
I love P cars but lets hope their recent string of hits dont go to their heads. The 918 comes to mind.
anyway the article is full of speculation. P is banking on continued growth from Emerging Mkt countries and extrapolating the current growth can be dangerous. Just ask this guy:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...16-months.html
I love P cars but lets hope their recent string of hits dont go to their heads. The 918 comes to mind.
08-23-2013, 10:36 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Yes, the 918 is a somewhat poorly carried out exercise for sure... Something with an $800k+++ price tag has to be at the pinnacle of not only technology but performance too... Lightweight, agile and well sub of 7min NBR time to justify the price tag... This car has missed that mark by a mile and it's not like the buyers aren't out there with the LaFerrari having sold out immediately with an even heftier price tag...
I think the relative performance superiority of the fiat and McLaren P1 will make it hard to move the remaining 918s at that price... They should have realistically been offered at the $400k mark suggested in this article for the spin off model...
I think the relative performance superiority of the fiat and McLaren P1 will make it hard to move the remaining 918s at that price... They should have realistically been offered at the $400k mark suggested in this article for the spin off model...