EVO Video 991 GT3 v M12C - Unbelievable!
08-21-2013, 06:26 PM
#31
The 991 has a pretty big hole in the torque curve vs the 997.2 GT3RS between 2500 and 4000, however... Not that it's a significant issue with with PDK.
It's impressive to me that the GT3 soundly beat the GTR on the road... at 9000 feet! Given the power loss at altitude of the NA engine vs the turbo that's a good sign.
It's impressive to me that the GT3 soundly beat the GTR on the road... at 9000 feet! Given the power loss at altitude of the NA engine vs the turbo that's a good sign.
08-21-2013, 06:27 PM
#32
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Pete. As a Brit I translate Jethros statement there to mean on the track the PDK is at least a match for the manual experience.
As for DD. The car is perfect with an auto. Im pretty sure thats why auto was invented. Remember in many parts of the world like Europe, Uk and New Zealand we never had auto boxes as standard until the last few years so we all grew up driving manual. Infact my wife still drives manual e39M5. Ive never owned a dual clutch or any auto tranny sports car. For many of us auto was a luxury our markets couldnt afford. For DD I have no doubt the new 991 GT3 is a far better car that the outgoing one. Especially in town traffic. I intend to use mine for everything form a trip to the shops to visiting friends and running errands.
So the new car is likely (according to reviews) a better DD and a better track car (more reviews on this to come but Im sure they will reinforce this point) - Reliability is unknown and will be for a few years but the base 991 has been much better than the 996 & 997 so far for reliability.
So that leaves us really with one driving situation of concern - Spirited Open Road Driving...
For a weekend road blast I think this car will mostly polarize. You see it depends on your roads, road surface, climate and bureaucracy. In NZ, much like the UK and Europe, we have lots of tight narrow twisty rough ashfelt roads with a rough chip seal surface. Think Mullholland Drive but narrower with a similar surface in places. Weather can be variable from damp/wet to dry sunny. On B roads traffic police are very rare and we would normally drive up to 100 mph for a spirited weekend drive not really looking at the speedo at all just driving to the conditions and grip/condition on the road surface.
I have no idea if the PDK will add or detract from this type of driving but I know when I drive like this Im focusing on pointing the car in the right direction, balance, position entering corners, braking and acceleration points. Gear changing is critical but also often the most frustrating part of driving an unknown road and often I spend too much concentration on heel/toe to a low gear to find its too low as the concern opens up not tightens etc.
I drive in teh sates regularly and have driven Canyon roads, highway roads and a few months ago Pacific Coast Highway 1 (fog, rock falls, rain, sun etc) road in a Shelby Cobra. That last road is really the only one i can even start to compare NZ roads to and I just ate it up until I cold no longer see in front of me and had to stop for the night.
We also do Tarmac Rally down here and have two famous ones. Targa Tasmania and Targa New Zealand. You shoud check these out. Targa NZ last years was 3000km - 2000km touring and 1000km closed roads open speed time trials. Roads are B country roads - very twisty. Top speeds not much over 200kmph. This is very fast close to the cliff driving with a navigator, route book, rally computer, hardwired GPS etc and for this type of "street" driving I just know from other participants the PDK will be killer. You dont have time to loose on shifts here and it can unsettle the car in unknown corners with unknown road surfaces - PDK is safer, faster and it leaves far more bandwidth for the important stiff like trying not to get out of shape. last year we lost 8 from 50 cars in our group and three of them were write offs! If you want to get a feel for this then look up on you tube Targa Tasmania or Targa New Zealand 2012 (you may even see my 993). Also very similar but not as long or as dangerous is Targa Florio run every year in Sicily - very famous and old road race...
As for DD. The car is perfect with an auto. Im pretty sure thats why auto was invented. Remember in many parts of the world like Europe, Uk and New Zealand we never had auto boxes as standard until the last few years so we all grew up driving manual. Infact my wife still drives manual e39M5. Ive never owned a dual clutch or any auto tranny sports car. For many of us auto was a luxury our markets couldnt afford. For DD I have no doubt the new 991 GT3 is a far better car that the outgoing one. Especially in town traffic. I intend to use mine for everything form a trip to the shops to visiting friends and running errands.
So the new car is likely (according to reviews) a better DD and a better track car (more reviews on this to come but Im sure they will reinforce this point) - Reliability is unknown and will be for a few years but the base 991 has been much better than the 996 & 997 so far for reliability.
So that leaves us really with one driving situation of concern - Spirited Open Road Driving...
For a weekend road blast I think this car will mostly polarize. You see it depends on your roads, road surface, climate and bureaucracy. In NZ, much like the UK and Europe, we have lots of tight narrow twisty rough ashfelt roads with a rough chip seal surface. Think Mullholland Drive but narrower with a similar surface in places. Weather can be variable from damp/wet to dry sunny. On B roads traffic police are very rare and we would normally drive up to 100 mph for a spirited weekend drive not really looking at the speedo at all just driving to the conditions and grip/condition on the road surface.
I have no idea if the PDK will add or detract from this type of driving but I know when I drive like this Im focusing on pointing the car in the right direction, balance, position entering corners, braking and acceleration points. Gear changing is critical but also often the most frustrating part of driving an unknown road and often I spend too much concentration on heel/toe to a low gear to find its too low as the concern opens up not tightens etc.
I drive in teh sates regularly and have driven Canyon roads, highway roads and a few months ago Pacific Coast Highway 1 (fog, rock falls, rain, sun etc) road in a Shelby Cobra. That last road is really the only one i can even start to compare NZ roads to and I just ate it up until I cold no longer see in front of me and had to stop for the night.
We also do Tarmac Rally down here and have two famous ones. Targa Tasmania and Targa New Zealand. You shoud check these out. Targa NZ last years was 3000km - 2000km touring and 1000km closed roads open speed time trials. Roads are B country roads - very twisty. Top speeds not much over 200kmph. This is very fast close to the cliff driving with a navigator, route book, rally computer, hardwired GPS etc and for this type of "street" driving I just know from other participants the PDK will be killer. You dont have time to loose on shifts here and it can unsettle the car in unknown corners with unknown road surfaces - PDK is safer, faster and it leaves far more bandwidth for the important stiff like trying not to get out of shape. last year we lost 8 from 50 cars in our group and three of them were write offs! If you want to get a feel for this then look up on you tube Targa Tasmania or Targa New Zealand 2012 (you may even see my 993). Also very similar but not as long or as dangerous is Targa Florio run every year in Sicily - very famous and old road race...
I admire your fascination for the 991 GT3..your much more a die hard fan of it then I am of a 997 GT2-GT3 or whatever..but are you now trying to tell us that 8 cars were lost on a rally because they were not PdK? Your funny man..if 3000KM would be too much for you with a manual ..I would hereby offically ask Porsche to provide you with a GPS controlled 991 GT3...so you wont loose your car..
On the subject: Of course a Pdk is faster on the racetrack, this is what EVO was trying to say...but for a sunday morning thrill a manual could maybe provide more blast...this is what he was trying to say..I think..
PS: Im not a Brit as you know..but studied at one of your best universities..
08-21-2013, 06:32 PM
#34
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Porsche itself talks about ~ 2 seconds..has also been mentioned in several articles..so it seems like with the 997.1 GT3-vs 997.1 GT3RS...that there is almost no difference..
08-21-2013, 06:33 PM
#35
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Thread Starter
Pete. the 991 GT3 may give something to the .2RS between 1500-4000 but look at the torque curve for the 991 GT3 after 4000. Im guessing with an extended rev range and the PDK-S the Porsche guess had to play with the cam profiles in the lower rpms to suit the nature of the drive train/engine combo.
the 997.2 GT3RS does make the same peak torque as the 991 GT3 it is true, and it makes it differently too. But again we have moved on from the base 997.2 GT3 as a comparison. In our market the 2010 GT3RS was 35-40K USD more than the base GT3.
I agree though that the new 9A1GT3 strengths lie in its light weight internals and his HP. Torque has not increased at all over the base 991S 9A1 engine. This is sonething I hope Porsche will address with the Gen 2 cars as I believe the engine needs 350lbft+ and Im guessing a capacity change will be needed...
the 997.2 GT3RS does make the same peak torque as the 991 GT3 it is true, and it makes it differently too. But again we have moved on from the base 997.2 GT3 as a comparison. In our market the 2010 GT3RS was 35-40K USD more than the base GT3.
I agree though that the new 9A1GT3 strengths lie in its light weight internals and his HP. Torque has not increased at all over the base 991S 9A1 engine. This is sonething I hope Porsche will address with the Gen 2 cars as I believe the engine needs 350lbft+ and Im guessing a capacity change will be needed...
Last edited by Macca; 08-21-2013 at 06:56 PM.
08-21-2013, 06:34 PM
#36
Race Director
Respectfully, there's a difference between diversity and inconsistency. Many of the conflicting opinions tmg57 cited so clearly in his post are often voiced at different times by the same people, which is both inconsistent and confusing.
08-21-2013, 06:37 PM
#37
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on the engines of the 991: 991.2 is likely to get a turbocharged version of the 9a1 engine...but with smaller displacement...so this will for sure have more torque..but the point is..the 991 GT3 could be one of the last 911s with normally aspirated engine..
08-21-2013, 06:38 PM
#38
youre not confused..you perfectly summed up all the opinions here..and "diversity" is an enrichment to every society, company..and even RL I would say.
I do however believe youre really confused when you say: "Porsche's long time reputation for reliability on the track and on the street" ..have you ever heard about 996-997 IMS problems? Class action suit? Check the 996 section and you will see whether Porsche is known also for "reliabilty". In 90% of the cases your assumption is correct..but Porsches mistakes have increased lately pretty much..IMS, CL, 991PdK issues and so on..I know that Ferrari isnt much better..but everybody makes mistakes..even Porsche..
I do however believe youre really confused when you say: "Porsche's long time reputation for reliability on the track and on the street" ..have you ever heard about 996-997 IMS problems? Class action suit? Check the 996 section and you will see whether Porsche is known also for "reliabilty". In 90% of the cases your assumption is correct..but Porsches mistakes have increased lately pretty much..IMS, CL, 991PdK issues and so on..I know that Ferrari isnt much better..but everybody makes mistakes..even Porsche..
08-21-2013, 06:47 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Come on Macca,
I admire your fascination for the 991 GT3..your much more a die hard fan of it then I am of a 997 GT2-GT3 or whatever..but are you now trying to tell us that 8 cars were lost on a rally because they were not PdK? Your funny man..if 3000KM would be too much for you with a manual ..I would hereby offically ask Porsche to provide you with a GPS controlled 991 GT3...so you wont loose your car..
On the subject: Of course a Pdk is faster on the racetrack, this is what EVO was trying to say...but for a sunday morning thrill a manual could maybe provide more blast...this is what he was trying to say..I think..
PS: Im not a Brit as you know..but studied at one of your best universities..
I admire your fascination for the 991 GT3..your much more a die hard fan of it then I am of a 997 GT2-GT3 or whatever..but are you now trying to tell us that 8 cars were lost on a rally because they were not PdK? Your funny man..if 3000KM would be too much for you with a manual ..I would hereby offically ask Porsche to provide you with a GPS controlled 991 GT3...so you wont loose your car..
On the subject: Of course a Pdk is faster on the racetrack, this is what EVO was trying to say...but for a sunday morning thrill a manual could maybe provide more blast...this is what he was trying to say..I think..
PS: Im not a Brit as you know..but studied at one of your best universities..
I have never driven a PDK in my life not an auto sports car but I have driven events like the Targa in my 993 6 speed and I can 100% comment from experience that PDK would make for a faster and safer ride with less tax on the driver. Tax on the driver can lead to real world danger on these courses as you are driving 8 hours a day at least. Many of the full on race cars run some form of sequential shift.
You should perhaps do some google on the Targa NZ/Tasmania subject - you might find it interesting.
The point I was taking the time to make is my Sunday Morning Sprinted Drive in New Zealand may be quite different than Manifolds (or whoever as example) spirited drive in LA or whatever...i.e road type, surface, conditions, traffic, speed etc
08-21-2013, 07:02 PM
#40
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Some miscl points:
- I find the 997S to have more midrange punch than the 991S, and generally I've found that engines which can rev high need to rev high. That's fine for the track, but not so ideal on the road. Case in point, I like the M3 better with DCT rather than MT because the DCT does a good job of keeping the revs up.
- The 991 GT3 clearly has both strengths and weaknesses compared to other cars. It would be remarkable if it was 'better in every way' than the 997 GT3, but it's not.
- The strengths/weaknesses of the 991 GT3 mean that it will be a 'perfect' car for only a fraction of its buyers. The rest will be satisfied to varying extents. Some may even be unsatisfied sooner or later, and decide to sell it for that reason. Different strokes for different folks.
- Value is a relative thing, depending on what you're comparing with and your criteria. The 991 GT3 will be a bargain for some, a waste of money for others.
- People need to stop getting bent out of shape when someone doesn't agree with their opinion of the car. We all bring our own perspectives and consensus isn't in the cards. If you've already decided to buy the car and only want to hear cheerleading, this may not be the best forum for you.
- I find the 997S to have more midrange punch than the 991S, and generally I've found that engines which can rev high need to rev high. That's fine for the track, but not so ideal on the road. Case in point, I like the M3 better with DCT rather than MT because the DCT does a good job of keeping the revs up.
- The 991 GT3 clearly has both strengths and weaknesses compared to other cars. It would be remarkable if it was 'better in every way' than the 997 GT3, but it's not.
- The strengths/weaknesses of the 991 GT3 mean that it will be a 'perfect' car for only a fraction of its buyers. The rest will be satisfied to varying extents. Some may even be unsatisfied sooner or later, and decide to sell it for that reason. Different strokes for different folks.
- Value is a relative thing, depending on what you're comparing with and your criteria. The 991 GT3 will be a bargain for some, a waste of money for others.
- People need to stop getting bent out of shape when someone doesn't agree with their opinion of the car. We all bring our own perspectives and consensus isn't in the cards. If you've already decided to buy the car and only want to hear cheerleading, this may not be the best forum for you.
08-21-2013, 07:22 PM
#43
Pete. the 991 GT3 may give something to the .2RS between 1500-4000 but look at the torque curve for the 991 GT3 after 4000. Im guessing with an extended rev range and the PDK-S the Porsche guess had to play with the cam profiles in the lower rpms to suit the nature of the drive train/engine combo.
For a manual I'd agree it needs more torque, a stroke to 4.0L. For the PDK the gear ratios are so close and quick I'm not sure the extra area under the curve would be much of an advantage. The PDK makes it significantly easier to ride the upper RPMs.
08-21-2013, 07:56 PM
#45
Race Director
This may sound crazy in the context of a GT3; I'm just saying don't be shocked to see this across the model lines, including Gen 2 of the Carreras and GTs. My belief is that the window is slowly closing on NA performance cars which is one reason I've jumped into this market when I did. I hope I'm wrong and this happens later rather than sooner, but it will happen.
