Petevb

I fully understand your wish to test this one and see for yourself. And I too wish the tests so far were over more than a day; even the second day called on the event of "rain" would have made for an interesting progression.

My thought, however, is that there are horses for courses. I have four cars at the moment, and each has a different roll. The PDK isn't better or worse, it's optimized for different things than the manual. It's guaranteed that for some people, for some things, it's going to be worse. I can see a PDK in my garage for some things, but it won't cover the roll the old GT3 did.

I look forward to hearing your impressions after running the car. I may decided to give an RS a shot at some point for similar reasons...

Mike in CA

In general, and looking to the future, I think you have a point and I don't disagree. But as to the 991 GT3 specifically, which is the car we've been discussing and the one that my perspective is based on, I don't expect a significant trade off between performance and involvement.

This is supported by the videos I've seen, the overwhelming majority of opinions in reviews I've read, and will hopefully be reinforced with some hard numbers that we'll start getting shortly. I'll let folks know my own first hand and obviously subjective take in about 4 months......

I'd just like to add that this thread has some of the most intelligent and coherent interaction on this subject to date. Maybe we do owe Pete Stout credit for inspiring it.

Macca

Chris,

Im curious about your views here.

You sound like a relatively intelligent giy. How can one journalist represent the views of the many on a product that now one other than say 30 select people around the world have driven yet? Driving pleasure is a rather personal and subjective thing dont you think, and although Pete does a reasonable version of his won subjective views in this article there are also 5 more articles I can email to you on the 991 GT3 that say the MT will not be missed. Are these subjective and valuable too.

Im not saying Peter is wrong, Im simply saying I think you are not qualified to get on the bandwagon tll you have had some direct experience yourself or alternatively the ground swell of real world user experience supports a particular position on the driving experience with authority and weight and beyond any doubt.

I can see how it suits you to save $270k aud not trying the 991 GT3 before formulating a point of view of your own rather than adopting others, or perhaps you are just so sure of your love of MT that you wouldnt even consider it for a moment, but I dont think others are necessarily in the same situation as you. You have a 997.2 GT3 which going by your current POV may be the last latest model P-car you ever own (assumes we dont see another MT GT car in the future), and thats a really great position to be in. Your mind has been made for you if thats how you feel.

If you had no P-car right now and you were in the market for a GT3 and could afford a new one would you buy the 991 GT3 or the 997.2 GT3. I suspect the later but what would you have to loose from trying the former then selling it if your didnt like it 12 months later and buying a depreciated .2 GT3. What 20-30k maybe. Not a lot really. chances are the 997.2 GT3 will ahave depreciated 20K in those 12 months as the 991 RS is announced and the 991 GT3 is slowly dribbled into the market on wait list.

Of course you may say "no way Im not buying that rubbish it doesnt have a MT gearbox and I dont care about lap times without MT experience" and that's your prerogative too.

The way I see it if everyone was really honest with themselves why wouldnt they be landing a 991 GT3 at Xmas and giving it a try and if they dont like it buy a 964RS or a 997 GT3 or better still a 996.1 GT3 or something more "organic". Is it money thats the reason? Im not sure but from my seat it looks like a low cost experiment....

fun2k

I guess the real question is if you had to choose between a brand new 997.2 gt3 and the 991 gt3 one which would you like to own?

That question can only be answered after a few months of ownership of the new car. There's absolutely no point in arguing which is going to be better without atleast some sort of ownership experience because it is worlds apart from driving a car for a short period of time and then asked to summarize the brief experience.

I love manual cars but then again I also enjoyed my drive in the 458 what an amazing car.Lets hope this car will lives up to all our expectations:

9000 rpm check
Great engine check
no under steer check ??
pdk (can go where no gt3 owner wanted to go,through traffic lol) check
E-diff (hope its more reliable than 997.2 gt3) ??
Looks great in person ??
Doesnt kill enjoyment after few days of ownership ??
Easy to oversteer at sane speeds (this is where the 458 is amazing) uncheck
Will not get caught by police after shifting from 2nd to 3rd check check check

911rox

Happy to answer you questions Macca... My hurried post may have come across differently to how I intended for it to be perceived so I'll explain.

My comments are directed at those made by Nick most directly and the couple of other posters who dismissed the piece on the basis of the writer's opinion having been expressed.

As you've repeatedly pointed out, none of us have driven the car... The "naysayers" haven't nor have the "yaysayers"... So it's fair to say that just as those of us skeptical about the whole PDK issue really haven't got a leg to stand on, nor do those fully embracing the new technology. On the other hand, Peter has driven the new car, has driven the old cars countless times and is therefore more than qualified to present his opinion on the drive experience for himself overall... Porsche may not agree, some here may not agree... So what? They have to suck it...

At no point did Peter rubbish the new car, he pays it full credit for its achievements, the way it has moved the game on substantially but in turn takes a moment to point out that for him personally, Porsche's choice has taken something from the experience for him. This is a concern of many naysayers and whilst "we are NOT entitled to express that opinion not having given the new technology a go", suggestions by some here that he to is not entitled to his opinion is plain silly... My comment was intended to point out that having sampled the new machine, a fear of ours is a reality for him and a few other journalists. It's a subjective opinion he is entitled to.

I have no right to dismiss the car, the yaysayers have no right to say its the best thing since sliced cheese BUT journalists like Pete do... As you've rightly pointed out, many have embraced the technology with open arms, some lament the lack of manual but they all speak from personal experience..

With your further comment, I agree fully... I'm not entitled to get on the bandwagon as I haven't sampled the new technology and from the point of view of 'driving experience', I will reserve my judgement till such time as I do. I moved to manual cars 10 years ago for two reasons (i) involvement and (ii) reliability... I have never owned an auto car that I have not reduced to rubble (it's transmission) in longer than 3 years. It wasn't through abuse (ie roll backs etc) but just from driving hard. I've rebuilt 5 auto boxes in 3 cars over 10 years and this has put me off them, especially in an environment where they are expected to work hard- the track... And to say, "but this is a Porsche" means nothing because at my first Porsche drive experience school I witnessed a Boxster S with 7500k on the odometer suffer a trans failure on a wet skid pan where it would have been hitting 140km/h at most... So for me, I don't trust the little electronic gizmos within to keep it together over time for a track car and don't have race team budgets to blow on upkeep... Plain and simple...

And as for my current position, yes, I do own a 997.2 and the fact is that 3 years ago, that was it... Three years on and with my financial position changing, I was definitely considering to add an RS, likely 991.2 to the fleet... It's always nice to move with the times but only if the new car can fulfil my needs and requirements. I buy these cars for track so of paramount importance to me is (i) reliability and (ii) reasonable running costs excluding wear and tear items... With the exception of the CL debacle that Porsche gave us 997.2 owners, all other demons I was aware of and for me the car has been a trooper. That's what I'll expect to see from a future prospect before I sign the dotted line and blow the next $350k... I'm conservative in this respect and proven technology is the only way I roll when I down $300k to flog a car on track. On the road, whatever...

In answering your question on whether today given the opportunity of a new 997.2 or new 991, I will say the following... In 2008 when I put my deposit down on the 997.2 and rumours were flying around about it being a 9A1 based car considering the turbo had just gone that way, my instructions to my dealer were straight up: "If it gets the mezger, we buy, buy, buy... If its a 9A1 power plant you'll be helping me find a 997.1"... I only go the proven path for a car that will endure a lifetime of punishment, just as Porsche continue to do with their racing programs

Macca

Thanks Chris. Its good to understand better your point of view.

I looked on carpoint.com.au this evening and counted over 16 GT3 for sale in Australia and many of them 997. They do seem to hold their value pretty well over there even if they are very expensive in the first place.

Your welcome to try my 991 GT3 any time you visit NZ....

brake dust

Many of us are looking for confirmation of our current view points in the review articles. As AP has said many times, the new GT3 needs to be driven, then make up your mind. It's going to be a super quick car - but will it be "your cup of tea" for the track and public road driving?

I don't find my GT3 to be much fun on public roads - its too fast for the types of roads that I can drive on. Starting to think that I need to add an old air cooled 911 for fun back road driving - drive a slow (er) car fast than a fast car slow.

Manifold

The roads one can drive on is definitely a big factor. On my roads, at sensible speeds, I enjoy my 997 C2S and the previous gen of Boxster, but I find the 991, new Boxster, new Cayman, and my Cayman R to be somewhat boring. Dial up the latter group of cars on the road and they do become fun, but such dialing up on a regular basis is out of the question. So I wouldn't buy a 991 GT3 for primarily road use, but I'm considering it for the track. My reservation there is that I find my 997 more engaging on track than the Cayman R, so I wonder if the 991 GT3 might be less engaging on track than a 997 GT3, despite the 991 being faster (and setting aside the issue of transmission).

1198r

Absolutely! I owned a GT-R before the RS and to go fast you REALLY did have to know what your doing when the electronics are switched off (I KNOW you could not completely!!). I tracked it a lot and it was what I would term a capable cumbersome brute! Four wheel drifts may look spectacular but you ain't going fast.

I honestly believe my motorcycle racing before the days of traction control really helped me understand how to "feel" in a car and instinctively manage and react accordingly.

With the RS, as a road car for the track, it's the closest thing to a bike I have found, but having driven a cup car on ****!! used slicks - this is now the bench mark for me - oh how i'd like one, or that the 991 RS gets nearer....

Sorry, getting back to point - with all driving experiences, it's all individual and we all have an opinion, and Pete's summary at the end is the first honest "i'm not standing on the fence" review, and for that I am truly grateful to him and hope AP listens, or alas we may have a new GT-R, just a little bit more expensive..... so my hopes rest with the RS.....

and yes I did enjoy the GT-R!

911rox

Indeed there are quite a few Macca. Having followed the market in recent years, I find that many owners tend to put them on the market to limit their loss when a new model is announced...

Thank you for the offer of a drive!! If I get out to NZ, I'll take you up on that ride but I'll be in the passenger's seat PCM will be putting a press car on fleet and I've already asked the dealer principal for a drive. He's assured me a drive on the streets, hopefully a lap or two at PI will follow

frayed

manifold, echoing what macca said, I wonder whether owner reviews can really answer the question for you. But I guess there's no harm in waiting.

All this boils down to PDK v. MT for most. There have been owners who went to PDK in their 997 or 991 and have embraced it. These guys/gals cite better at day to day driving and better focus on track; they shifted their focus from the MT to driving a better line and being able to listen to the car at speed w/o the MT dance taking up some of their bandwidth.

Other folks who have jumped to PDK or other cars including F1 Fiats have said 'after 30 minutes I switched it to auto and the car became boring.'

Even the journalists are split on the topic (I'm not talking those who have driven the GT3, but journos in general).

I think it's hard to predict where one might fall if you truly approach the G3 with an open mind.

I think Macca and I fall into similar camps. Speaking for myself only, I've never considered an automanual until now. I disliked the Audi version, tried the PDK in several porsches and until the new box in the new Cayman, never felt the least inclination to go PDK. When buying a Fiat, I searched high and low for a gated 6 speed rather than an F1 box.

Maybe I have too much trust in PAG and more specifically what AP and his team have created, but I do think this time around I'll be convinced.

Really looking forward to the early reviews as well, though I'll likely sort through macca's and mike's writings on RL looking for validation of my views.

aussie jimmy

can't wait till wazza drives it.
he will call it as it is as well.

Nick

FWIW, I am not trying to sell anyone on PDK. I could give a rat's *** if someone preferred MT over PDK. What I do object to is MT enthusiast claiming MT is more involving than PDK. I think that is nonsense. To extract the best performance out of a car with Paddles you need to use them properly and at the right time. Many MT advocates have no conception as how much fun and interactive paddles are.

On the other hand, it is true that with PDK or F1 you can leave it in auto mode and optimize performance. However, to do so does require driving skills such as braking, correct lines, throttle control to maintain the car balance. In the end this is why we buy performance cars....PERFORMANCE!

I conclude by asking this question;

YOU'RE JUDGED BY PERFORMANCE. WHY DRIVE A CAR THAT LIVES BY A LESSER CODE?

Mike in CA

I spent 10 minutes talking with Hurley Haywood in the paddock at Laguna during the Historics yesterday. I asked him if he had driven the new GT3 and what did he think of it. Don't have time now (headed back to Laguna in 5) to recount the whole conversation but the first word out of his mouth was "awesome". I also asked him if Porsche did the right thing in not offering a MT and he gave me his instructor's perspective on why a DCT like PDK offered many advantages, especially on track.

I mentioned that I had PDK in my 997.2 S and that I was looking forward to trying PDK-S in the 991 GT3. His comment was that the PDK-S experience was so far removed from PDK that it will be something completely different for me. He said that basically Porsche has engineered into PDK-S the ability to do virtually anything you can do with a manual. He was particularly enthusiastic about the paddle neutral feature. Apparently you can even engage neutral to blip the throttle in manual mode to rev match yourself on downshifts.

Hurley is a Porsche guy so make of this what you will. But he is very sincere and straightforward and I walked away feeling very reinforced about how much fun this car will be to drive.

Conekilr

This Manual vs PDK argument about which is more involving will never be won one way or the other because "Feel/Involvement" is subjective based on our own preferences and definition.

At the end of the day, all GT3 are great cars and we are all fortunate to own and drive them...

Now step away from the keyboard and go for a drive in the ride of your choice !!!