911rox

Peter is only offering a perspective that so many current owners share.He is providing a candid assessment of the car including the driving experience for the driver. His views are shared by many... The driving experiece is the most important aspect of car ownership of this nature. Otherwise Toyota Priuses would do fine for all... If Porsche chose to make big calls, they have to accept opinions put forward...

First, anyone who questions or speaks negatively of the car gets rubbished, now journalists can't even offer an opinion??? wtf???

Thanks Peter Stout for voicing the opinion of so many loyal owners wishing for driving pleasure over 0.4sec faster...

911SLOW

: (

Mike in CA

My observation regarding the issue of "driving pleasure" versus going a few tenths of a second faster is that they are not, as is often suggested here, mutually exclusive. As much as I've enjoyed driving all of the MT Porsches and other cars that I've owned over many years, working a stick and clutch is not the end all and be all of driving. Not having a MT may not meet someone's personal needs, but by no stretch of the imagination must it automatically relegate driving to the level of piloting a Prius.

Something may be lost without a MT in the 991 GT3 but other things, just as essential to driving well and enjoying the experience, may be gained. To not recognize that, whether in a published review or just posting on a web forum, is to miss something important, IMHO.

frayed

Agreed Mike.

Nick if you ignore all the pdk statements from Pete you'll see that he did need to drive the car to write what he did. Take a sharpie to all the MT lamenting and you'll end up with an article you desire. I remain in the 'open' to the PDK camp; not all of us have already wholly bought into the concept.

sunnyr

Unfortunately that is exactly the direction things are moving in. It is only a matter of time when there are self driving cars that will set lap times no human can touch. It wasn't like this, there was a time when lap times were actually a good indication of how good driver's car a car was. But in this era of GTRs, the less a human is involved in driving, the faster the car will be. Now it is shifting that is automated, soon it will be brakes, throttle and steering. Just a matter of time. I don't know, will people will still argue that a car is fun if it was steering that was automated instead of shifting?

ps. Not arguing that 991 GT3 is a bad car, but just pointing out the larger philosophical point of how cars are will get faster the more automated they are. And please don't for a sec think this is a exercise in sci fi fantasy, just last month my couple of friends at Google took the Google self driving Prius for a trip.

Petevb

I will not be buying a 991 GT3 new, correct. Regardless of the transmission an RS seems a better fit, or a Cayman GT car if a non-neutered version of that ever materializes. My last new car, the BMW 1M, pretty well illustrates where my head's at. The fact that I've owned ~10 Porsches and am now shopping across the street says something.

Pete's exactly the type of person that Porsche is claiming will have their mind changed by the new PDK. They claim this is a car for the enthusiast: "drive it and you'll see". I think they honestly were not expecting his answer.

Being an engineer and having lived and worked in Germany I think I can understand the PAG perspective better than most. I think Germans have generally made cars for themselves first, which is entirely understandable. Germans also have the most demanding roads in the world, so it's happened that what was best for them has often also been best for a lot of other people. However that's not always the case.

Before I moved to Germany I had dreams of importing my then current ride, a '73 RS clone with a 310 hp VRam. What could be better than enjoying a classic in its birthplace on the unrestricted autobahn? It took only months for that dream to go out the window- the RS would be a terrible car in Germany unless I lived next door to the 'Ring. On the autobahn it's far too noisy- wind, road and exhaust. A quick audi wagon would dust it above 130 mph, it'd be tiring to drive, questionable in the wet... It's actually all wrong for Germany in most ways. And Germans knew it was all wrong in the first place, which is why they never expected to be able to sell any when they were new. Yet over here it was so right- involving at reasonable speed, all the right noises, epic down a back-road. One of the all time greats, and they sold multiples more than they expected to.

Due to their perspective Porsche has repeatedly misunderstood what their customers outside of Germany want, in my opinion. How else do you explain not only the RS, but the failure of the 928, the car that was supposed to replace the 911 and was on paper "better" in every measurable way? Faster, but uninvolving... The 996 and 997 TTs: again brilliant autobahn weapons but boring street cars for US buyers?

I see the lack of a manual here as exactly this type of lack of insight into some US (and UK, etc) buyers. Yes, time marches on, and no one can stand in the way of progress. However for how many of us use our cars here the PDK is not necessarily progress.

I respect that people are different and use their cars in different ways. For many the PDK will be a big leap forward. Sounds like you're one of those people, and that's fine. However for lots of us it isn't. Pete Stout is making that clear, it's a perfectly valid opinion, and PAG needs to hear it. Many who have seen my posts here will remember I've been a big supporter of most of this car: the new engine, the rear wheel steering, hell even the 20" wheels, etc. I'm not a luddite, far from it, or a purist who doesn't want progress. But for my usage (and many others) the PDK is currently a step in the wrong direction, simple as that.

Macca

Must take my hat off to Mr Stout. Hes finally elicited some intelligent, enjoyable debate on this forum, albiet its a well worn favorite (MT vs PDK) but that's fair enough as this is probably the biggest paradigm shift of the generation.

I think its fair to say that few people here even those vehemently in dislike of the new car will agree that aside form the transmission the new 991 GT3 is a winner over the previous generation on teh balancce of things-

1). Its's bigger physically but seems smaller to drive (two reviews have now said as such in support of the RWS system and effective shortening of wheelbase).

2). Its an attractive aesthetic with most folk drawing attention to the wheel design, front bumper treatment and flared rear wheel arches.

3). The quality and execution of the interior and exterior materials seem to be a step up from previous generations as they were on the 991.

4). Handling has been improved immeasurably through the use of a infinitely variable e-diff, RWS, longer wheelbase, better PASM settings allowing better front end bite & less under steer, more stability at speed and better weight transfer and balance.

5). The engine seems to have passed most reviews with flying colours. Reliability is unknown at this time as are Motorsport credentials but assuming both are given (we will know within the next 12 months) then the engine seems to have its own unique character as appealing as a Mezger 3.8 but perhaps in different ways. Obviously the high rpm and light inertia get a big rave review, the sound it makes at idle and in the upper reaches again teh same and most say its creamier. The negatives include not so "gritty" as the old Mezger when chuntering around town.

6). Performance. The brief track test in the UK, road tests against the old 3.8/4.0 in UK & Europe and general overall view by all road testers is that this car is faster in every dimension than the old car. Ring time gives further indication.

7). Ancillaries, appendages, systems and features - all seem to be an improvement on the outgoing model if press releases, product sheets and early reviews are anything to go by. Dynamic engine mounts are now standard along with bigger screen systems interface, tyre pressure monitoring and driver info display in the dial pod. Fuel efficiency has improved as have power and torque. Weight is up by 75lb with stock seats. USA downside are buckets at this time but will change shortly - early orders should go "free" sports seats only IMHO and buy the one piece light weight buckets in mid/late 2014 when they are available ebaying the sport seats to defray the cost (probably will end up similar overall cost to ordering it with the buckets going by the ROW pricing).

So if we look at everything other than the transmission choice we should beable to agree that the cars a sure fire winner over the previous generation. A typical generational makeover with improvements on most fronts and a fraction less tactility perhaps with the engine sound at low rpm but a win at higher rpm's with "the screamer" engine as EVO dubbed it. Real world driving indicated it handles lumpy surfaces with uneven cambers and fast switchbacks well which should appease most non US drivers. Speed and handling are improved peerhaps 2 planes ahead now rivaling many cars almost twice the price. A number of reviewers (EVO,Stout, Car) has stated the new chassis and drive systems/engine make the old car feel dated when back to back tested. I think youll agree - its what we expected one generation from another. If you have ever lived with a 996.1 GT3 then jumped in a 7.2 GT3 youll understand what I mean - the programme moves on...

So in the end it comes back down to MT vs PDK. To me this is probably a fairly subjective topic right at this time. Im a MT diehard so I WANT to enjoy the PDK. Heck Im a soon to be 991 GT3 owner so I EXTRA WANT to like the PDK. Ive never driven a PDK car and never owned an auto box car other than a large 4WD truck (which by the way I hated the auto to start with and loved after a few years driving it - suits the personality of the truck and application perfectly).

I like PeteV have a pretty highly strung MT 911. Mine is aircooled and makes 100 bhp less than Petes beautiful long hood. Its used for a variety of street, track, tarmac rally but not much as a DD. Love it. But its compromised. In heavy traffic its a PIA. Unfortunately traffic is what I have to experience before I get to open road. Im probably an above average driver but not a driving god. To give you an example at things like the 2 day Porsche Driving Experience I started 3rd out of a group of 20 but ended up fourth overall (a guy who started 12th beat me!). Its like that with alot of things. I seem to start strong but cant learn quick enough to improve fast - instead I have to practice lots to become better. Some guys are naturally gifted - never even driven a Porsche before the Experience start at the bottom on session 1 day 1 and in the top 2 at the end. No me. Im a Paul Newman type not a Steve McQueen type LOL!

I dont believe that the reviews are really indicative as to whether or not the PDK is a great transmission of simply a begrudgingly brilliant one that robs us of the experience. My only experience with auto ownership taught me that it takes some tie to truly answer this question. And I do want it answered. The fact is I have no idea if I will love this change or hate it - and Ive been honest about that from the start - everything else about the package however is a positive as far as Im concerned.

I recall period reviews of the 964RS and even teh 993RS - the journos said they were comprised on public roads, had less but charged more and were largely irrelevant, somewhat dangerous and way to compromised to consider. Look how log the que is for those cars now?

If PDK means I get into this car more often before any other in my fleet then that to me is a big positive over loosing a little involvement.

If PDK takes out the pain of 20 minutes of stop start traffic on a Friday afternoon trying to get out of town for a long weekend - then great. Again even at the expense of a little driver involvement. My iPod doesnt sound as good as my 1 Bit DAC CD player but I listen to way more music now than I sued to and frankly wouldnt go back to CD only even though I love the sound quality by comparison (and the furthermore the same could be said re LP but I sold the LINN a decade ago so thats closed chapter - too much hassle looking after discs for me).

On the track I have absolutely no questions about the PDK. It will be quicker safer and as Pete says at the speeds this car will generate over my 993 track steed I will ahve plenty to think about with lines, position and braking points. The PDK is probably going to help gearbox, tyre and engine longevity and I dont think Ill miss the manual box at all even though I enjoy my heel to toe (currently learning Left Foot Braking for the PDK box but been practicing in the auto truck only!).

HOWEVER - If PDK robs my fast road driving experiences from significant driver involvement and enjoyment Ill be shopping the car quickly and buying a used 7.2 GT3! Im not a dreamer - I know speed doesnt make up for everything and I love my MT cars. If the compromise in this regard is beyond by (admittedly low) tolerance for driver enjoyment there will be no argument - it will be sold within 12 months.

Now the catch. How can you truly get to know this gearbox, this car and the benefits and deficiencies of these new technologies in a 3 hour drive? Or a 2 day review? You simply cant. these cars are about being part of our lifestyles as much as they are just about a spirited drive. We are all so different for some of us it could take a month or two to appreciate a new benefit of PDK we had previously overlooked or had no situation need to appreciate. The ownership experience takes time and builds in layers from my experience. We are all different. 13 years with the same 993 is good proof.

How do you get to live with the new 991 GT3 to fully understand the balance of technology and if its right for your application and lifestyle and may enhance ownership reward holistically rather than depreciate it? You cant unless you buy and own one! We are all so different that looking throw a window created by another soul who has spent a few hours driving the car and is reporting from his own experiences and perspectives is very misleading. Sure a dog is a dog, but we know this car isnt a dog and its all going to come down to subjectivity about the transmission choice and enjoyment, Right now over half the reviewers are thumps up and the other thumbs down.

Now Ive never bought a new Porsche cause I aint rich, that said this is a cash purchase. What do I have to loose - first new to me Porsche in 7 years I buy it I drive it in Europe and at home, even my wife can easily wheelman it across the autostradas when I need some sleep, I get it home I track it I fast road drive it and what? I hate it I sell it I loose (very little Id imagine in the first 13 months) I buy a 997.2 GT3 (which will have further depreciated with the new car coming out by about the same amount looking at whats starting to happen in our market) and that's as bad as it gets. Really is it that bad?

The flip side is I drive it I get to appreciate the benefits of the new box, it suits me and makes me happy (I still have the 993 for when I want to do it old skool) and I keep it till the next great 911 safe in the knowledge Im enjoying the best tech Porsche has in the market and superlative multi use vehicle thats exceptional on track. Isnt what the GT3 was all about anyhow?

Sorry for the long rant....one mans view that's all...

Macca

As you will see from my diatribe written while you posted Im exactly on the same page as you here. Frankly following the logical and assuming one is of open mind I cant see who would not be (unless of course the already own a 997.2 GT3 in which case they could have far more to loose fiscally making the change then back again).

Most of life's big lessons happen to be counted in $$$. Luckily some are free. My logic is that by living with the new GT3 for 12 months I get the chance to answer my own questions about this car at very little risk. There will always be plenty of 997.1/.2 GT3 for me to buy if it doesnt work out.

However I remain very optomistic this car will thrill in such a different way that I will be addicted to it and probably ant to drive nothing else in thee garage. My mate that does some testing at the Ring and knows the car says he reckons Ill sell the 993 within 12 months of buying the 991 GT3 as I wont be using it any longer. That car is a keeper (well i hope!) but he was serious and I hope I really do enjoy it as much as he believes I will.

Manifold

Good rant Macca, I agree with much of it.

One thing I'd add is that there can be some pleasure in driving a car that can handle well and deliver performance, but makes you work for it a bit. Transmission issue aside, I do have some concern that the 991 GT3 may be too easy to drive, thus needing to dial the car up close to its limits for the thrill factor to kick in. And of course the limits are very high with this car.

Your point about needing to spend substantial time with the car to reach a more conclusive verdict is also important, and is the reason is why I've let my #2 spot slip. I want to at least hear from capable drivers who driven it on both track and road for several months before making my own decision whether to get one.

sunnyr

+1. Unlike PDK, these things don't replace the driver.

neanicu

Nick,you're the only one here trying to convince us why PDK is a better choice. You won't win this battle.
Pete Stout only expressed his opinion and he's entirely entitled to it.
You are happy with your choice,confident in your decision,why do you feel the need to take this further?
I respect your opinion,but that's it...I don't have to agree with it.

frayed

macca understood and completely agreed.

Macca

Hi Manifold. That's just my point. I think you need to own this car and use it to truly decide if its the best thing since sliced bread or a retrograde step. Being first on the list means you get more "depreciation resistant" time to make this decision with it in the garage. Its a very personal thing and I dont think you can entirely rely on other judgement if this is right for you, your usage and lifestyle. Just IMO of course LOL!

Working a bit for performance is fine. I do it every time I drive my little non ETC 300 bhp air cooled 911. However I challenge anyone to call massive performance boring. Otherwise I suspect the Turbo cars would have been canned years ago. Ive driven them and they are addictive even if you have to get your kicks at illegal speeds. I think 911s generally fell into the "you cant really fully benefit until you are travelling beyond the law speeds" camp a long time ago - that why most of us head to the twisty back roads with 50mph corners and generally thrash the pants off teh car without exceeding 90mph, come out adrenaline filled, sweaty, shaky and high on car euphoria. The 991 GT3 like any great car you've ever driven (even with more HP than a 3.8 GT3 - like say a good 2009 997TT) will not change this. Ive watched one of the early videos from UK Autocar with reviewer Steve in the red 991 GT3 as he screams around damp twisty European back roads well below the legal limit and I defy anyone to tell me that precision, balance, neutral handling with sharp responsive steering, honest feedback and a wallop of 9000rpm HP in reserve will not be massively fun full stop - forget the envelope thing it was already well higher than most of us are capable to exploit before we even got to this latest generation GT3.

Fact is and Im backing this with 230,000 USD of hard earned money - you can be the biggest MT die hard in the world or the biggest PDK fan but UNTIL YOU HAVE OWNED, LIVED WITH and DRIVEN the thing you cant call this one! Its too controversial, the change is so radical, you need a very open mind and some time to give this a go. If it doesnt work out its so easy to go and buy a used 911/GT3 so a big safety net for failure. If it does work out (which I suspect it will for many myself I hope included) then you get to enjoy one of the most capable cars on the planet for a few years and then keep looking forward.

Tough call? Nah. You buy it you try it and then you really know or you dont - Im not fanboy, just a realist with an open mind wanting to be challenged and convinced and prepared to have some fun at it for very small $$$$ cost when you really look at it. Ive made the mistake before of letting others tell me what I would enjoy in a car and I realize now you have to get some good bum time into a machine before you can truly understand what it offers....

orthojoe

This analogy that somehow a GTR drives itself is used way too often and really is a huge exaggeration. If that we're true, all of the GTRs I see at the track would be kicking everyone's ***. That actually rarely happens. It's not because the car isn't capable if kicking ***. It's because the DRIVER doesn't know how harness the capabilities of the car. All of the fast GTR drivers I've seen have been driven by people with good experience in other cars. The slow drivers are always guys who started off tracking with a GTR. The car does not drive itself and still takes skill to drive fast whether you like it or not. It is more forgiving, but still takes skill to properly drive

orthojoe

Some of you guys are starting to sound like the yahoos in the BRZ/FRS forum. The fanboys there seem to think that anything faster than a BRZ is way too fast to enjoy at the limit, and cars like the cayman are boring because the limits are too high. Sound familiar? Sound silly?