TomTom77

+ 911 - 12!

It is really quite funny indeed. Some people just don't want to see it.

When rumors in March indicated that the GT3 would faster than the 12C and 458 on the Hockemheim Short circuit, nobody believed it. Now that EVO shows that it is comparable to the 12C's times at Blyton Park, it's the tires. Once the 12C tire uncertainty is clarified, in whichever way, I'm pretty sure some argue that the fuel was different. Or that the 12C had more camera gear on board. Or a heavier photographer. Or the 12C's settings weren't appropriate to that time of the day or track. Or the track lay-out suits the GT3 more than the 12C. And so on. And so on.

And once that's argued to death, some will bring up the reliability issues that the 997.x GT3s faced and hence the 991 GT3 might face too... or might not. It's not that the 12C is renowned for its reliability, is it?

For me it is very simple: the fact that the GT3 is (almost) as fast as a 12C (and thus probably faster than a 458) makes it very compelling indeed. Knowing the price in comparison to others, it is a bargain supercar in a similar way the GTR was when it was first launched, yet with more purity, fun and a better badge!

Macca

Yes TomTom. I also remember all these arguments as Ive been around since the beginning. As Ive been saying almost that long this car will be very strong on track and I have been told.

First we had the seat US debacle, the CL concerns, the reliability questions. Now we have people complaining they cant get on the order list almost anywhere in the world.

If its not one thing it will be another. This car has had a painful gestation but I reckon its going to turn everything upside down in the performance sector of the industry and become a landmark Porsche for a variety of reasons and one of those will shortly become apparent when the car is put up against some very powerful rivals on the Hok and Spa circuits in Europe by a well known European publication....I cant wait to get it on our local track with some Recaro Pole Position seats in it and some proper R compound track rubber!

911rox

Guys lets be realistic! The articles are telling us what we knew and expected! Its one fast and exceptionally well balanced car and at the forefront for performance in its class and dare I say it for a class or two above its own!

I'm not a fan of PDK and new direction necessarily but wrapped for the reviews on the whole that the car is receiving but lets not kid ourselves regarding reliability etc... No number of outstanding reviews will validate the reliability of the car... It needs to get out there and be driven hard, only time will answer the question... And I've not seen a single person present or post on CL maintenance, engine or even trans maintenance when track driven. Lets wait to read an owner's manual and see them cop some real world abuse before making claims...

Its great to see that the GT3 continues to be the half price performance benchmark in many respects! No arguments there!

jumper5836

Well said.

Manifold

+2

aussie jimmy

+3.

auto tranny is a big variable here.

-eztrader-

It's faster, handles better- but less involving. Common theme.

jfr0317

Hi, Mike. We were at the Porsche Zentrum yesterday, and a 991 GT3 is on display just as you pull in to the parking entrance. It's white with PCCB's, ROW sport bucket seats, and the full leather interior with contrasting red stitching. Very nice!

They also have a 918 there that a privileged few are getting to take rides in, driven by Daniel Eastman.

Dude-

This is just me and I may be on crack but the reliability issue was never an issue. Sure if you were shopping for a toyota or lexus where you should expect reliability. On a GT3, Zr1, or any other rice cake destined for the track you are essentially beating the **** out of it and then you want reliability? When I was shopping for a gt3 I heared about the 997's having its issues with the CL, Coolant, etc so I expect the new GT3 will have some kind of issue.
If you say lets judge the gt3 after we know about how reliable it is then well know if its better.... what bench mark are we working off from. As I see it, theres is no real standard cause the old one was in a class of its own.

If you're going to beat on it, you are going to break it.
If you're going to hang out in the dark alley, you're going to get robbed.

Maintain a good maintenance schedule and things should be fine.

Dude-

I dont see that as the common theme.

It's faster, handles better, prettier, more advance, and most importantly More power to be enjoyed which leads to a totally different level of enjoyment.

The 997 is in a class of its own and one should have both because they are great cars in different levels.

The glass if half full for me.

GrantG

On track, there can be reliability issues and then there can be RELIABILITY issues. The GT3 cars have always had some minor annoyances and risks with respect to track reliability, but the major components (the engine, gearbox, brakes, etc.) have all been unusually solid, despite heavy use and abuse for many years (and performance doesn't diminish with extended use).

Many other cars that have supposed track pedigree simply don't have that sort of reliability. Several marques have major issues with engines and gearboxes being destroyed (and require intermittent "rests" for cooling brakes and drivetrains). I think we'll be satisfied if the new GT3 is as least as solid as the previous ones.

Mike in CA

Chris, I completely respect your POV, but it doesn't invalidate the excellent points made by TomTom and Macca. 6-8 months ago the language coming from the negative camp (for want of a better term) on the 991 GT3 was on a completely different level. The car would have only a warmed over Carrera motor, the wing would be too small, it was hugely overweight, RWS was a joke, there would be no dry sump, the e-diff was crap, the steering would be the same as the Carrera's, and the car was only intended for C&C attendees and poseurs. Performance would never threaten the GT3RS, much less the 4.0RS, 458 or MP12, and it would be a miracle if it was more than a couple of seconds faster than the PDK Carrera S that did the Ring in 7:38. A time less than 7:30 would be impossible. Sport seats wouldn't be available for years if ever because Porsche didn't really want the GT3 on track. No one would want to buy, Porsche would have huge backlogs, and cars would sit 3 deep on dealers lots waiting for customers. Discounts would be available everywhere. Check the archives; all those comments are there. And anyone who challenged any of the above notions was simply a fanboy.

Now that most of all that has been proven wrong we've started to see some grudging praise, but the focus of the naysayers has shifted. Now it's, we haven't seen hard data yet. There are still reliability concerns. Fair enough. The data will be available soon enough, as Macca suggests. As for reliability we'll have to see. The CL issue hasn't been resolved although if I'm not mistaken, the most desirable, no-brainer Porsche choice in the world, the 4.0 RS, comes with CL's, doesn't it? PDK has been tracked for years by several members here (mdrums comes to mind) without incident. The engine is untested, but my prediction is that it will be a home-run as well. You can remind me of this later if it proves to be incorrect.

The one thing I can't argue is the lack of MT. I think Porsche made absolutely the right choice with PDK but I understand there is huge disagreement on that point. Unfortunately it's poisoned the water for some people. All the other complaints were and are, for the most part, an extension of one; no manual transmission. If I were Porsche I'd make a MT available even though it will be less suited to the engine and make the car slower, charge an extra $10K for it, and let people blissfully row their own, just to quiet the complaints.

Mike in CA

Great, John. Thanks! I wonder how one becomes one of the privileged few? I guess if you have to ask.....

jfr0317

I know what you mean, Mike! I know Daniel pretty well from the Sport Driving School and a Porsche Travel Club trip, and while he was glad to see me, he wasn't glad enough to offer me a ride!

wanna911

Mike I think your sentiment is a bit inaccurate. I don't think anyone thought the GT3 would be slow. Warmed over Carrera or not, the Carrera has already proven it's speed so even a bit faster than that is a big step up from the 997 and I think that was wholly acknowledged. The motor is based on the 9A1 motor, so essentially it still fits the bill. It has not been proven in racing, which was the major gripe with it, and still is. It hasn't even been proven in the hands of experienced weekend track warriors yet.

Just trying to keep things in perspective here.

Most of the ring predictions were somewhere in the range of the 3.8 RS at low 7:30's based on the time of the Carrera, but the Carrera would be capable of that on R-compounds or Dunlop Maxx, so I digress, wishful thinking on the part of some naysayers. Plus many of the cars you mention do not have officially tested times at these tracks. Third party validation is the only constant.

But it's no different than claiming the car is a world beater and bargain of the century by 991 GT3 fanboys. I can think of 5 cars off the top of my head that are cheaper and faster. GT-R, ZR1, Z06 centennial, Generation IV Viper ACR and probably the gen 5 viper as well. Which makes it odd to me they didn't make a way to test the GT-R they had for some real validation.

So now we have a vague ring time, a non descript test on a tiny barely longer than auto-x track vs a likely hamstring version of a car that even in it's best trim is slower than some of the cars I mentioned. For me at least, this is not World Beater status.

Take for example the 12C at Laguna Seca is in the top 4 on the list WHEN ON CORSA's. Put it on regular P-Zero's and it's likely 2 seconds slower (ZR1 was 2 seconds slower from PS2 to MPSC) putting it right into the clutches of the 3.8 RS (and thereby making all of the naysayer predictions more accurate). And Laguna has a lot more power zones for the 12C to utilize.

We won't likely get to see a true comparison of the cars until they get to a track and are on the same tires with similar drivers. But for now it's all fluff if you have any clue on what you are looking at when mags come across with comparos.

When the car is tested on tracks that already have lots of high benchmarks set, there won't be any questioning it. But we haven't crossed that bridge yet.