kosmo

I think the 991s ring times were similar to that of the 997.2 gt3. thats impressive given that the latter has Cup tires.

but we all know laps times are hearsay unless verified by a 3rd party...

wanna911

Correct, it's directly comparable to the 991 vs 997. If you put cup tires on the 991, it's 997.2 RS fast around the nurburgring with no wings and such bypassing the 997.2 altogether which I think it has already.

Corvette are just showing that it's not required to sell out and nannify the car to improve it substantially. Chassis development has come a long way.

MaxLTV

Actually, prev-gen Corvettes had 6-stage traction & stability control, and supposedly in some modes it was achieving better times than Tommy Milner could do with all off: http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/...t-how-it-works

So it was already more nannified than 991.

frayed

You write this as if the vette is a pure driver's car with no electronics intervention.

computer controlled electronic shocks.
computer controlled electronic differential
computer controlled rev matching, ie., no more heel toe driving
computer controlled advanced stability control
cylinder deactivation
computer controlled steering ratio
computer controlled steering weight

Not to mention heated and cooled seats, heads up display.

Yeah, the vette is a purist's car devoid of 'nannies.' LOL

wanna911

.05 better in one corner of testing isn't exactly scientific IMO. Surely they had enough time and a whole track to themselves to test whole laps but like Porsche and every other manufacturer trying to hype their systems to be better for the car than with them off, they picked a test powering out of the slowest corner they could find while telling the driver how to drive the car.

That is hardly anywhere near as nannified as a PDK, RWS, PDCC,PASM alphabet soup of different nannie's Porsche is using now. It's just traction control. How exactly is that even nearly as many nannies?

wanna911

Cylinder deactivation? You sound really desperate even bringing that up....

Heated and cooled seats? Are you kidding?

In bridging the gap between comfort and speed, and considering the average age of the typical Corvette buyer is almost 60 years old, which is why the seats SUCK, it makes sense that Corvette has added these systems. Magnetic suspension is hardly different from variable rate springs, and a great selling point. I don't care for it, but I'd definitely take the list of Corvette nannies way before the GT3 ones as would almost every person who does not care for the GT3's over the top changes.

But you are only fooling yourself if you think taming 475 hp and 300 ft lbs with a super long rev range is anything like taming 640 hp and 600 (almost DOUBLE) ft lbs of torque with a low revving SC (which comes with lag) V8.

Electronic rev matching can be turned off. Plenty of Heel/Toe driving!

Stability Control is mandated by the government.

2 Categories for Electronic steering? Those straws are out of reach man. That is about feel anyways, at the end of the day, it's not going to keep you on the track. I don't really care about that.

And no one is mistaking a ZR1 for a car you can get on the track and not take seriously or that is driving for you. Putting almost 700 hp and 600 ft lbs of torque down on street tires is work for any driver.

I think GM did a great job minimizing the nannies for the type of guys they are generally selling the car to. Otherwise, they would have been handing older people Vipers to crash every other day while driving gently down the street.

The two directions are not even remotely comparable. Not even a worthy try.

Oh, I forgot to add, Magnetic ride and PTM are OPTIONAL on the new Corvette..... Another point where GM>Porsche.

frayed

OK so in order to talk apples to apples, are you saying that nannies are only things that help you stay on track, as you other post implies.

And btw, there's no PDCC in the GT3. FYI

wanna911

Don't play word games with me. You didn't think I would fall for that did you?

Nannies are NOT heated/ac seats, and you know that. Neither is it cylinder deactivation, you knew that too, but were desperate to make a point. You are not helping your cause with desperation posts. At least make a reasonable point.

No one said the Corvette is devoid of nannies or a raw machine or had the visceral feel of a GT3, because it never has.

But GM has put the effort into engineering the manual instead of selling out to people to lazy to learn how to drive properly. Adding technology without dumbing the experience down to a bunch computer controlled everything. You can turn just about everything that matters off, leaving the driver in control of what's going on. Features like skip shift, no lift shift, manual launch control and active rev matching are ok because they don't steal the driving experience, and YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THEM!!!

That is a win win in my book, everybody wins with options. And surely a heck of a lot better than what Porsche is offering. They have been trying to make it impossible to disable computer controls since the 996 with PSM and then into the 997 with PASM. Now they have just lost their minds.

Mike in CA

RWS is not a nanny. It doesn't correct for bad decisions/inputs on the part of the driver. For that matter neither is PDCC, even though it's not included on the GT3, or PASM. A "nanny" is something like ABS or stability management which watches out for the driver to save him/her from themselves. If someone is going to say that RWS is a nanny, then any system/part which improves performance would be considered a "nanny".

frayed

You are too funny wanna. You keep changing your definition nannies with the examples you cite, and are all over the map with your statements.

But rather than point out every inconsistency I would like your definition of 'nannies.' Are you saying that nannies are not just safety items, but also computer controlled performance items as well? Or do you have another definition? I'll play with whatever definition you choose.

hf1

RWS is more like a crutch for the engine being in the wrong place. The 991 chasis improvements (vs 997) could be summarized as:

- push the engine a wee bit forward
- RWS
- widen the front base

PAG should just widen the front of a Cayman, stick the 3.8L ("GT3") engine in it and just get this gradual "improvement" process over with. This car would have very little (if any) benefits from RWS.

frayed

You forgot the most important one: e-diff.

But yeah. Turn the Coxster into a GT3, and relegate future 911's to cabrio drivers.

wanna911

Look man, I'm not about to sit here and argue over the definition of nanny. When it's mentioned, you guys know what it is RWS, PDK, PDCC ad yes including ABS and PASM, Power Steering etc. All considered nanny's as well. Nannie's to not just fix problems, they make tasks (even trivial ones) easier and require less effort.

There is an acceptable amount of them and a non acceptable amount. There are also several ones required by the governement, so out of Porsche's hands.

AC is not a nanny, I'm sure you have heard of creature comforts. There are also an acceptable amount of those as well. I wouldn't want back massaging on a GT3 but it sure felt good in a 745.

But go ahead. Nit pick away..........

wanna911

I haven't changed anything. You are just confusing yourself by trying to call heated seats and cylinder deactivation a nanny. Who on earth has said any such thing?

Stop trying so hard and you won't get so confused.

MaxLTV

PDK is a gearbox, not a nanny - does not help you drive better and will not save you from crashing. RWS is not a nanny - it does not overtake control (like Corvette's stability control does) respond to f@k-ups to save you, but only adjusts suspension geometry based on steering input and load forces, just like suspensions do for decades, just mechanically. Corvette has rear steering, it's just passive, which does exactly the same - adjusts wheel angle by a pre-calculated amount based on loads on suspension. PASM has an equivalent in corvette (magnetic ride control), which actually also performs the function similar to PDCC (dynamic anti-roll), and GT3 does not have PDCC.

So it's a bit of a wash in terms of technology, it seems - Corvette has more advanced traction and stability control and more sophisticated active suspension, and Porsche has more advanced rear steering and gearbox. But in terms on "nannies" (meaning technology that alters driver's inputs to correct driving mistakes), Corvette is actually ahead with its more advanced and tunable traction and stability control system.