View Poll Results: 5-Lug or Center-lock
5-Lug Wheels - no cost option
141
79.21%
Center-lock Wheels - no cost option
37
20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll
5-Lug vs Center-lock Poll
06-07-2013, 12:54 AM
#46
Fair points. The whole CL thing could obviously have been handled better. I still don't think casual racers and street drivers are taking their lives in their hands and that was the point of my original post on this subject. But it's obviously more complex than that and I don't mean to trivialize the issues.
06-07-2013, 08:37 AM
#47
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Most of the guys complaining about the car have never even laid eyes on it, so regardless of experience I tend to take any complaints with a grain of salt at this point. The only known data point of concern is the CL's and those have been improved, although I agree that 5 bolt wheels are more practical.
I don't know if the new car will or won't be suited for 25+ track days a year, and I suspect no one else on this forum does either. I know a car that's tracked that much will be subject to more wear and tear and require more attention than one that's tracked 5 days a year; can we at least agree on that?
Regardless, without feedback from a car that no one has driven yet, we're pretty much discussing this subject absent any data and with nothing but ifs and hypotheticals.
I don't know if the new car will or won't be suited for 25+ track days a year, and I suspect no one else on this forum does either. I know a car that's tracked that much will be subject to more wear and tear and require more attention than one that's tracked 5 days a year; can we at least agree on that?
Regardless, without feedback from a car that no one has driven yet, we're pretty much discussing this subject absent any data and with nothing but ifs and hypotheticals.
The 991 GT3 needs to do at least as well.
06-07-2013, 09:13 AM
#48
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Nothing wrong with center locks if done correctly. Cup system is gun-on, gun-off with integrated safety retainers (see photo and link for more info). About as idiot proof as it gets.
For whatever reason, Porsche took a proven design (5-lug) and substituted it with an unproven design where one already existed (Cup CL), with the result being one of the most complex, cumbersome (4-foot torque wrenches, 2-man changing routines, tricky safety clips - come on), and error-prone cluster-***** known to modern car design. And then when they decided they'd underengineered the first generation they shoved it off on owners.
I'm happy to debate the pros/cons of automatics vs manuals all day long but Porsche's center-lock adventure on the 997.2 GT3 has been an abject failure no matter how you look at it. And while the updated design may be stronger it still doesn't solve the other issues.
http://www.brrperformance.com/blog/?page_id=431
For whatever reason, Porsche took a proven design (5-lug) and substituted it with an unproven design where one already existed (Cup CL), with the result being one of the most complex, cumbersome (4-foot torque wrenches, 2-man changing routines, tricky safety clips - come on), and error-prone cluster-***** known to modern car design. And then when they decided they'd underengineered the first generation they shoved it off on owners.
I'm happy to debate the pros/cons of automatics vs manuals all day long but Porsche's center-lock adventure on the 997.2 GT3 has been an abject failure no matter how you look at it. And while the updated design may be stronger it still doesn't solve the other issues.
http://www.brrperformance.com/blog/?page_id=431
Last edited by Nizer; 06-07-2013 at 10:28 AM.
06-07-2013, 10:19 AM
#49
Nordschleife Master
Nothing wrong with center locks if done correctly. Cup system is gun-on, gun-off with integrated safety retainers (see photo and link for more info). About as idiot prove as it gets.
For whatever reason, Porsche took a proven design (5-lug) and substituted it with an unproven design where one already existed (Cup CL), with the result being one of the most complex, cumbersome (4-foot torque wrenches, 2-man changing routines, tricky safety clips - come on), and error-prone cluster-***** known to modern car design. And then when they decided they'd underengineered the first generation they shoved it off on owners.
I'm happy to debate the pros/cons of automatics vs manuals all day long but Porsche's center-lock adventure on the 997.2 GT3 has been an abject failure no matter how you look at it. And while the updated design may be stronger it still doesn't solve the other issues.
http://www.brrperformance.com/blog/?page_id=431
For whatever reason, Porsche took a proven design (5-lug) and substituted it with an unproven design where one already existed (Cup CL), with the result being one of the most complex, cumbersome (4-foot torque wrenches, 2-man changing routines, tricky safety clips - come on), and error-prone cluster-***** known to modern car design. And then when they decided they'd underengineered the first generation they shoved it off on owners.
I'm happy to debate the pros/cons of automatics vs manuals all day long but Porsche's center-lock adventure on the 997.2 GT3 has been an abject failure no matter how you look at it. And while the updated design may be stronger it still doesn't solve the other issues.
http://www.brrperformance.com/blog/?page_id=431
I really enjoyed reading about that project!
Thanks for posting!
06-07-2013, 10:43 AM
#51
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And for those of you that haven't owned a GT3 before and plan to purchase a new one, you'll want to do some shopping and familiarize yourself with the center-lock wheel change procedure.
Parts required (unfortunately, none of this stuff comes with the car unlike the lug wrench that used to be provided with 5-lugs):
Torque wrench:
http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-i...s-c4d600f.aspx
You need the length to generate the necessary force. Porsche motorsport does make a compact torque multiplier wrench but that'll set you back about $2,600 last I checked.
Brake Pedal Depressor:
http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-21520.aspx
Mandatory unless you always have a buddy with strong thighs handy. Watch you don't damage your seats when using.
40” Breaker bar:
http://www.righttoolusa.com/p/Titan-...FYed4Aodq3YAdw
Can't use the torque wrench to break the nut free. Make sure you strap it down well. Wouldn't want this thing flying around the cabin in an accident.
Guide tool for PCCB brakes:
http://www.3rauto.com/parts/3r_parts/index.php
Those ceramic rotors chip easily and are expensive to replace.
CL Grease:
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...ode=997gt32whe
Wheel nuts have to be taken apart, cleaned and regreased every time they're removed per Porsche procedure. This is nasty stuff. Wear some good gloves and don't touch any other parts.
The actual wheel change procedure is pretty complicated and nothing like what you're used to with 5-lug wheels. I'd recommend doing a search for the PDF maintenance guide to familiarize yourself with what's involved.
Last edited by Nizer; 06-07-2013 at 11:06 AM.
06-07-2013, 11:57 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
Fair points. The whole CL thing could obviously have been handled better. I still don't think casual racers and street drivers are taking their lives in their hands and that was the point of my original post on this subject. But it's obviously more complex than that and I don't mean to trivialize the issues.
their handling of the CL issue is where they lost me... In my view, whats to say we don't have a CL type debacle with the new engine or trans. And we've seen their solutions. I won't be doing any more beta testing for Porsche. When I pony up $300k next time, it will be for proven technology,,,
06-07-2013, 02:37 PM
#53
Race Director
No worries.
And for those of you that haven't owned a GT3 before and plan to purchase a new one, you'll want to do some shopping and familiarize yourself with the center-lock wheel change procedure.
Parts required (unfortunately, none of this stuff comes with the car unlike the lug wrench that used to be provided with 5-lugs):
Torque wrench:
http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-i...s-c4d600f.aspx
You need the length to generate the necessary force. Porsche motorsport does make a compact torque multiplier wrench but that'll set you back about $2,600 last I checked.
Brake Pedal Depressor:
http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-21520.aspx
Mandatory unless you always have a buddy with strong thighs handy. Watch you don't damage your seats when using.
40” Breaker bar:
http://www.righttoolusa.com/p/Titan-...FYed4Aodq3YAdw
Can't use the torque wrench to break the nut free. Make sure you strap it down well. Wouldn't want this thing flying around the cabin in an accident.
Guide tool for PCCB brakes:
http://www.3rauto.com/parts/3r_parts/index.php
Those ceramic rotors chip easily and are expensive to replace.
CL Grease:
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...ode=997gt32whe
Wheel nuts have to be taken apart, cleaned and regreased every time they're removed per Porsche procedure. This is nasty stuff. Wear some good gloves and don't touch any other parts.
The actual wheel change procedure is pretty complicated and nothing like what you're used to with 5-lug wheels. I'd recommend doing a search for the PDF maintenance guide to familiarize yourself with what's involved.
And for those of you that haven't owned a GT3 before and plan to purchase a new one, you'll want to do some shopping and familiarize yourself with the center-lock wheel change procedure.
Parts required (unfortunately, none of this stuff comes with the car unlike the lug wrench that used to be provided with 5-lugs):
Torque wrench:
http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-i...s-c4d600f.aspx
You need the length to generate the necessary force. Porsche motorsport does make a compact torque multiplier wrench but that'll set you back about $2,600 last I checked.
Brake Pedal Depressor:
http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-21520.aspx
Mandatory unless you always have a buddy with strong thighs handy. Watch you don't damage your seats when using.
40” Breaker bar:
http://www.righttoolusa.com/p/Titan-...FYed4Aodq3YAdw
Can't use the torque wrench to break the nut free. Make sure you strap it down well. Wouldn't want this thing flying around the cabin in an accident.
Guide tool for PCCB brakes:
http://www.3rauto.com/parts/3r_parts/index.php
Those ceramic rotors chip easily and are expensive to replace.
CL Grease:
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...ode=997gt32whe
Wheel nuts have to be taken apart, cleaned and regreased every time they're removed per Porsche procedure. This is nasty stuff. Wear some good gloves and don't touch any other parts.
The actual wheel change procedure is pretty complicated and nothing like what you're used to with 5-lug wheels. I'd recommend doing a search for the PDF maintenance guide to familiarize yourself with what's involved.
06-07-2013, 04:06 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
I don't change tires. Given the difficulty of changing one with CL, my solution will be to call a tow truck and tow it to the nearest Porsche dealer. No big deal. I am not sure if the GT3 carries a spare.
With Ferrari they furnished temporary repair kit and inflator. Able to drive up to 75 miles.
With Ferrari they furnished temporary repair kit and inflator. Able to drive up to 75 miles.
06-07-2013, 04:30 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
With street driving, other than the fact that tyre shops can't get them off should you suffer a flat, the likelihood of an issue is negligible... For track, only the maintenance schedule will shed light on their confidence and as proven with the 997.2, they have no shame in moving the goal posts 3 years in...
their handling of the CL issue is where they lost me... In my view, whats to say we don't have a CL type debacle with the new engine or trans. And we've seen their solutions. I won't be doing any more beta testing for Porsche. When I pony up $300k next time, it will be for proven technology,,,
their handling of the CL issue is where they lost me... In my view, whats to say we don't have a CL type debacle with the new engine or trans. And we've seen their solutions. I won't be doing any more beta testing for Porsche. When I pony up $300k next time, it will be for proven technology,,,
06-07-2013, 05:09 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
I don't change tires. Given the difficulty of changing one with CL, my solution will be to call a tow truck and tow it to the nearest Porsche dealer. No big deal. I am not sure if the GT3 carries a spare.
With Ferrari they furnished temporary repair kit and inflator. Able to drive up to 75 miles.
With Ferrari they furnished temporary repair kit and inflator. Able to drive up to 75 miles.
WGI track is a 8 hour drive from my house. you wanna try to get a tow track somewhere in upstate NY to get your car towed back to Boston? they got no dealers there, pretty much.
it is a real threat - not a single shop will be able to take this damn wheel off your car if you get it torn apart and happen to be more than 200 miles away from any local center of civilization.
06-07-2013, 06:44 PM
#58
Race Director
06-07-2013, 09:09 PM
#59
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So tire shops won't be able to change the tires for you? I go through a couple sets a year.. So you have to take it to the dealer and buy the tires from them? I guess that means only the Porsche-approved tires? This just occurred to me as a major issue, anyone with any insight? Thx
06-07-2013, 09:20 PM
#60
No worries.
And for those of you that haven't owned a GT3 before and plan to purchase a new one, you'll want to do some shopping and familiarize yourself with the center-lock wheel change procedure.
Parts required (unfortunately, none of this stuff comes with the car unlike the lug wrench that used to be provided with 5-lugs):
Torque wrench:
http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-i...s-c4d600f.aspx
You need the length to generate the necessary force. Porsche motorsport does make a compact torque multiplier wrench but that'll set you back about $2,600 last I checked.
Brake Pedal Depressor:
http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-21520.aspx
Mandatory unless you always have a buddy with strong thighs handy. Watch you don't damage your seats when using.
40” Breaker bar:
http://www.righttoolusa.com/p/Titan-...FYed4Aodq3YAdw
Can't use the torque wrench to break the nut free. Make sure you strap it down well. Wouldn't want this thing flying around the cabin in an accident.
Guide tool for PCCB brakes:
http://www.3rauto.com/parts/3r_parts/index.php
Those ceramic rotors chip easily and are expensive to replace.
CL Grease:
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...ode=997gt32whe
Wheel nuts have to be taken apart, cleaned and regreased every time they're removed per Porsche procedure. This is nasty stuff. Wear some good gloves and don't touch any other parts.
The actual wheel change procedure is pretty complicated and nothing like what you're used to with 5-lug wheels. I'd recommend doing a search for the PDF maintenance guide to familiarize yourself with what's involved.
And for those of you that haven't owned a GT3 before and plan to purchase a new one, you'll want to do some shopping and familiarize yourself with the center-lock wheel change procedure.
Parts required (unfortunately, none of this stuff comes with the car unlike the lug wrench that used to be provided with 5-lugs):
Torque wrench:
http://www.tooltopia.com/precision-i...s-c4d600f.aspx
You need the length to generate the necessary force. Porsche motorsport does make a compact torque multiplier wrench but that'll set you back about $2,600 last I checked.
Brake Pedal Depressor:
http://www.tooltopia.com/lisle-21520.aspx
Mandatory unless you always have a buddy with strong thighs handy. Watch you don't damage your seats when using.
40” Breaker bar:
http://www.righttoolusa.com/p/Titan-...FYed4Aodq3YAdw
Can't use the torque wrench to break the nut free. Make sure you strap it down well. Wouldn't want this thing flying around the cabin in an accident.
Guide tool for PCCB brakes:
http://www.3rauto.com/parts/3r_parts/index.php
Those ceramic rotors chip easily and are expensive to replace.
CL Grease:
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...ode=997gt32whe
Wheel nuts have to be taken apart, cleaned and regreased every time they're removed per Porsche procedure. This is nasty stuff. Wear some good gloves and don't touch any other parts.
The actual wheel change procedure is pretty complicated and nothing like what you're used to with 5-lug wheels. I'd recommend doing a search for the PDF maintenance guide to familiarize yourself with what's involved.
