Killing the PDK
06-01-2013, 10:30 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
By the way, thanks to all those keeping the PDK versus MT debate going. I didn't think the previous quadrillion threads covered the subject adequately. Of course, that could be from my drinking too much Starbucks at the local Coffee & Cars.
06-01-2013, 10:33 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
Oops sorry.... Forgot that it now has rear wheels that turn 1.5o too...
Point is that most looking to buy it now from what I've being reading are wanting to tear up boulevards as opposed to racetracks
A carrera S with a GT3 badge is perfectly capable of that... 
Point is that most looking to buy it now from what I've being reading are wanting to tear up boulevards as opposed to racetracks
A carrera S with a GT3 badge is perfectly capable of that...
06-01-2013, 10:46 PM
#48
Elective to track or not, it's all good. The Carrera S is nothing like the 991 3 and you know it.
06-02-2013, 12:08 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
06-02-2013, 01:46 AM
#50
Rennlist Member
The GT cars have always been track focused machines and yet their ethos has now been compromised to cater for wannabe boulevard racers when 20 other variants exist for that group to choose from...
They are nothing alike for a reason... one was designed or intended to spend a decent proportion of time on the track where most new buyers won't be ....
06-02-2013, 05:08 AM
#51
@ jfr0317: well said, here we go again, only to end up having the same argument until a new tread open up which eventually leads to the same discussion too... and so on, and so on.
I've said something along these lines before and I'll say it again, but will try to phrase it a bit nicer to avoid being criticized as being 'a rookie' on this forum and thus having no right to speak out like this.
If I was convinced that the new GT3 will be a compromised machine (basically a too heavy, PDKed, RWSed Carrera S-and-a-bit), engineered by a bunch of incompetent, lying engineers, sold by the greedy VW Group who is targeting the wrong market internationally and doesn't even provide proper seats, then I personally would not spend time on this particular (GT3) forum, ending up having the same arguments over and over again with Kool-Aid drinking people who were 'stupid' enough to be fooled into ordering this car. Instead, I would spend all that time searching and test-driving viable alternative cars that can offer me the blend of performance, reliability, fun, driver engagement, image, heritage, plus a manual transmission, as the GT3s of the past have provided...
But then again, that's what I would do!
I've said something along these lines before and I'll say it again, but will try to phrase it a bit nicer to avoid being criticized as being 'a rookie' on this forum and thus having no right to speak out like this.
If I was convinced that the new GT3 will be a compromised machine (basically a too heavy, PDKed, RWSed Carrera S-and-a-bit), engineered by a bunch of incompetent, lying engineers, sold by the greedy VW Group who is targeting the wrong market internationally and doesn't even provide proper seats, then I personally would not spend time on this particular (GT3) forum, ending up having the same arguments over and over again with Kool-Aid drinking people who were 'stupid' enough to be fooled into ordering this car. Instead, I would spend all that time searching and test-driving viable alternative cars that can offer me the blend of performance, reliability, fun, driver engagement, image, heritage, plus a manual transmission, as the GT3s of the past have provided...
But then again, that's what I would do!
Last edited by TomTom77; 06-02-2013 at 01:59 PM.
06-02-2013, 09:36 AM
#52
Sure, happy to spell it out for you... If one doesn't plan to track their car, the GT3 offers NOTHING over a Carrera S to make ones driving experience on the street more pleasurable or fulfilling! you want noise, sports exhaust, you want fancy wings, aerokit... It should never have been softened to cater for its new intended market...
The GT cars have always been track focused machines and yet their ethos has now been compromised to cater for wannabe boulevard racers when 20 other variants exist for that group to choose from...
They are nothing alike for a reason... one was designed or intended to spend a decent proportion of time on the track where most new buyers won't be ....
The GT cars have always been track focused machines and yet their ethos has now been compromised to cater for wannabe boulevard racers when 20 other variants exist for that group to choose from...
They are nothing alike for a reason... one was designed or intended to spend a decent proportion of time on the track where most new buyers won't be ....
I get the discontentment over the lack of the choice of a manual and the added weight, but to go on as is this is just a juiced Carrera for those who wish not to track, is a little over the top.
With that said, one can still enjoy a true GT car far more than a Carrera S on the streets, even if not driving in a manner to cause public harm; and many do. Crucify me because I enjoy my contemporary sports cars loud, harsh, focused, low, which look and feel the part, even if I don't have the deep pockets (or do and choose not to spend my money there) to repeatedly enjoy one on the track. Tracking two to three times a year for me is liking having only foreplay with a Victoria's Secret model. I certainly wouldn't pass on foreplay with said model and have no intention of passing on another GT3 or RS because I may not track the car.
06-02-2013, 09:45 AM
#53
06-02-2013, 09:52 AM
#54
@ jfr0317: well said, here we go again, only to end up having the same argument when a new tread open us which eventually leads to the same discussion... and so on, and so on.
I've said something along these lines before and I'll say it again, but will try to phrase it a bit nicer to avoid being criticized as being 'a rookie' on this forum and thus having no right to speak out it this.
If I was convinced that the new GT3 will be a compromised machine (basically a too heavy, PDKed, RWSed Carrera S-and-a-bit), engineered by a bunch of incompetent, lying engineers, sold by the greedy VW Group who is targeting the wrong market internationally and doesn't even provide proper seats , then I personally would not spend time this particular (GT3) forum, ending up having the same arguments over and over again with Kool-Aid drinking people who were 'stupid' enough to be fooled into ordering this car. Instead, I would spend all that time searching and test-driving all viable cars that can offer me the blend of performance, reliability, fun, driver engagement, image, heritage, plus a manual transmission, as the GT3s of the past have provided...
But then again, that's what I would do!
I've said something along these lines before and I'll say it again, but will try to phrase it a bit nicer to avoid being criticized as being 'a rookie' on this forum and thus having no right to speak out it this.
If I was convinced that the new GT3 will be a compromised machine (basically a too heavy, PDKed, RWSed Carrera S-and-a-bit), engineered by a bunch of incompetent, lying engineers, sold by the greedy VW Group who is targeting the wrong market internationally and doesn't even provide proper seats , then I personally would not spend time this particular (GT3) forum, ending up having the same arguments over and over again with Kool-Aid drinking people who were 'stupid' enough to be fooled into ordering this car. Instead, I would spend all that time searching and test-driving all viable cars that can offer me the blend of performance, reliability, fun, driver engagement, image, heritage, plus a manual transmission, as the GT3s of the past have provided...
But then again, that's what I would do!
I love manual cars and love what the new gt3 will very likely provide. However, if I had nothing but contempt for PDK I certainly wouldn't troll on that forum pouncing on every thread I could denouncing it, the car it is in and all of the conspirators.
06-02-2013, 10:14 AM
#55
Three Wheelin'
regarding demand, parts consumed, greed of VW group etc etc etc
Spoke to the manager of Porsche of North Houston, a Premier dealer. He stated that only 518 GT3 will be allocated for the US in 2014 and they are all sold. Porsche are also sold out for 2015. Therefore;
1. There will be a while before I think I will see one on the track
2. with this low volume, only PDK
3. It will likely outperform any other car on the track, 0-60 alone is 3.5sec, with rear steering - FAST. Therefore people want it!!!
4. Owners of 997.1 and 997.2 who bought it despite hating CL's, may see an increase in the value of their cars for the next two years
5. I will hold on to my 6GT3 for a looooong time.
Spoke to the manager of Porsche of North Houston, a Premier dealer. He stated that only 518 GT3 will be allocated for the US in 2014 and they are all sold. Porsche are also sold out for 2015. Therefore;
1. There will be a while before I think I will see one on the track
2. with this low volume, only PDK
3. It will likely outperform any other car on the track, 0-60 alone is 3.5sec, with rear steering - FAST. Therefore people want it!!!
4. Owners of 997.1 and 997.2 who bought it despite hating CL's, may see an increase in the value of their cars for the next two years
5. I will hold on to my 6GT3 for a looooong time.
06-02-2013, 01:22 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
regarding demand, parts consumed, greed of VW group etc etc etc
Spoke to the manager of Porsche of North Houston, a Premier dealer. He stated that only 518 GT3 will be allocated for the US in 2014 and they are all sold. Porsche are also sold out for 2015. Therefore;
1. There will be a while before I think I will see one on the track
2. with this low volume, only PDK
3. It will likely outperform any other car on the track, 0-60 alone is 3.5sec, with rear steering - FAST. Therefore people want it!!!
4. Owners of 997.1 and 997.2 who bought it despite hating CL's, may see an increase in the value of their cars for the next two years
5. I will hold on to my 6GT3 for a looooong time.
Spoke to the manager of Porsche of North Houston, a Premier dealer. He stated that only 518 GT3 will be allocated for the US in 2014 and they are all sold. Porsche are also sold out for 2015. Therefore;
1. There will be a while before I think I will see one on the track
2. with this low volume, only PDK
3. It will likely outperform any other car on the track, 0-60 alone is 3.5sec, with rear steering - FAST. Therefore people want it!!!
4. Owners of 997.1 and 997.2 who bought it despite hating CL's, may see an increase in the value of their cars for the next two years
5. I will hold on to my 6GT3 for a looooong time.
06-02-2013, 06:12 PM
#57
Race Director
@ jfr0317: well said, here we go again, only to end up having the same argument until a new tread open up which eventually leads to the same discussion too... and so on, and so on.
I've said something along these lines before and I'll say it again, but will try to phrase it a bit nicer to avoid being criticized as being 'a rookie' on this forum and thus having no right to speak out like this.
If I was convinced that the new GT3 will be a compromised machine (basically a too heavy, PDKed, RWSed Carrera S-and-a-bit), engineered by a bunch of incompetent, lying engineers, sold by the greedy VW Group who is targeting the wrong market internationally and doesn't even provide proper seats, then I personally would not spend time on this particular (GT3) forum, ending up having the same arguments over and over again with Kool-Aid drinking people who were 'stupid' enough to be fooled into ordering this car. Instead, I would spend all that time searching and test-driving viable alternative cars that can offer me the blend of performance, reliability, fun, driver engagement, image, heritage, plus a manual transmission, as the GT3s of the past have provided...
But then again, that's what I would do!
I've said something along these lines before and I'll say it again, but will try to phrase it a bit nicer to avoid being criticized as being 'a rookie' on this forum and thus having no right to speak out like this.
If I was convinced that the new GT3 will be a compromised machine (basically a too heavy, PDKed, RWSed Carrera S-and-a-bit), engineered by a bunch of incompetent, lying engineers, sold by the greedy VW Group who is targeting the wrong market internationally and doesn't even provide proper seats, then I personally would not spend time on this particular (GT3) forum, ending up having the same arguments over and over again with Kool-Aid drinking people who were 'stupid' enough to be fooled into ordering this car. Instead, I would spend all that time searching and test-driving viable alternative cars that can offer me the blend of performance, reliability, fun, driver engagement, image, heritage, plus a manual transmission, as the GT3s of the past have provided...
But then again, that's what I would do!
) stated, Tom!
06-02-2013, 06:40 PM
#58
The free market has already spoken. Ferraris, 997.2 Turbos, Lambos have all seen a +90% take rate on paddles. The consumer killed the clutch pedal. I hated it as I saw this happening. I hated it when Ferrari declared there would be no option for a clutch pedal on a 458. Hated. But I now have a new GT3 coming and while I would’ve rather ordered a manual transmission, I’ve driven some of the newest paddles (Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes) and can appreciate the benefits and understand why Porsche has made the move. This is a car focused on extreme high performance and/or track driving, and the manual gearbox has become a weak link in the parts list of a modern, fast track car. I will miss heel/toe and rowing my own gears but am not concerned about being “bored” running my new GT3 at a faster pace than ever before (as I know from my friends who run McLarens & Scuds at our track days). There is a lot more to running a car at a high level on-track than working a clutch pedal and a faster box allows you to explore these limits even further. I DO have my sights on an older air-cooled 911 as a 2nd car for street use at some point but for ultra-high performance on the track I am ready to try PDK-S. If it bores me, I will trade for a 997.2 RS and happily save myself some $$.
I was wrong, it is the manual gearbox that is the weak link. Weak in the sense 99% of "drivers" do not know how to operate is correctly, so instead of learning they go the easy instant gratification way - the PDK. One thing less to learn, so must be good, right?
Next weak link to eliminate - the steering wheel. Let the computer find the correct apex.
Oh, I forgot about the gas and brake pedals, the computer knows better how much and when to break, turn and accelerate. Worth those 0.5 seconds on the track! It is all about instantly being fast on the track, isn't it?
No time to learn, lets do those launch control starts and do laps, and then brag about how fast "we" drove!
I do not know who buys 458, Lambos, 911 Turbos, Mercedes, but given the fact that average buyer of 911 Turbo in US is 55+ and the fact that Porsche targets men 45+, I could imagine for the other brands as well.
Old guys have money, what they do not have is desire to operate manual transmissions, they just want to relax.
The very young generation is just focused on the numbers, who is faster 0-60 and such, they do not give a shid about manual transmission.
The only enthusiasts left are 30-40 year old guys...who in time will become relaxed PDK, computerized-steering-wheel-gas-and-brake-pedals drivers.
The big "sport car" companies made the decision for customers regarding the automatic transmissions. 458 may be a great car, same goes for Enzo, but F40 will ALWAYS be THE Ferrari.
06-02-2013, 06:54 PM
#59
Can't blame Porsche? Does anyone on this forum run a business?
And if you had an opportunity to sell more widgets would you say no?
In effect this is what the PDK in PDK-S does, ie bring new customers into the bucket. And the S in PDK-S keep the old ones interested.
Yeah I hear everyone saying they are cannibalizing the old ones but really what other choice in the market place do you have? And don't say Aston Martin, lotus, viper or corvette, please.
And if you had an opportunity to sell more widgets would you say no?
In effect this is what the PDK in PDK-S does, ie bring new customers into the bucket. And the S in PDK-S keep the old ones interested.
Yeah I hear everyone saying they are cannibalizing the old ones but really what other choice in the market place do you have? And don't say Aston Martin, lotus, viper or corvette, please.
Porsche sales consist of Cayennes and Panameras to 80%, and soon they will have a cheaper Macan on the market. 911 is insignificant for Porsche, it is only there to protect the brand name (in the sense that when you say word "Porsche", 99% of people instantly think of 911) but Porsche is doing bad job. Too commercialized now, too much marketing.
I am sure new 991 GT3 is faster, better car, but so was 997.2 compared to 997.1 and 997.1 compared to 996. It is faster but softer, to attract new customers, like someone mentioned here before, customers who want something with a GT name but more comfortable and easier to move around in pretending to be hard-core driver. Porsche listened and ching-ching, they release 991 GT3 without race seats and on 20" wheels, rear-wheel steering, electronic steering, PDK. Great for VW coffers, I am sure.
Then they go and try to convince people this is the real racing car, great successor to 996 and 997 GT3. I respectfully disagree. It is ALL marketing, also from Mr. "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging" Preuninger.
06-02-2013, 07:06 PM
#60
Manual is manual, and robot is robot, whatever personal knowledge you ask for will not change that fact.