Killing the PDK
06-01-2013, 12:12 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Anyone who finds driving PDK on the track to be "boring" or "less exciting" than driving a MT is definitely
driving FAR too slowly. As Walter Roehl has said, for the good track driver, it simply raises the bar, lowers the lap times and elevates the challenges to a different and higher level.
In 40 years of track driving and racing, I have never driven "The Perfect Lap" and, believe me, neither have any of us. PDK will brings us all one step closer to it - but, unless we are driving and racing professionally, we will never reach it. How can this possibly be boring??????
Daily driving a fast car in traffic - Now that is really boring. So for you MT addicts, the solution is easy.
For $10K used or $25K new, buy yourself a small, nimble, underpowered DD driver
driving FAR too slowly. As Walter Roehl has said, for the good track driver, it simply raises the bar, lowers the lap times and elevates the challenges to a different and higher level.
In 40 years of track driving and racing, I have never driven "The Perfect Lap" and, believe me, neither have any of us. PDK will brings us all one step closer to it - but, unless we are driving and racing professionally, we will never reach it. How can this possibly be boring??????
Daily driving a fast car in traffic - Now that is really boring. So for you MT addicts, the solution is easy.
For $10K used or $25K new, buy yourself a small, nimble, underpowered DD driver
BTW, in the interview above Hatz says if they made a mistake with PDK only for the GT3 then the RS will be a manual. How will they decide if they made a mistake?
06-01-2013, 12:40 PM
#17
06-01-2013, 12:53 PM
#18
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The pdk isn't boring on the track......but it is on the street, where 90% of your driving occurs.
I traded my first 997tt in on a 997.2tts, at first I used manual mode all the time. After about a month I was just in D commuting with the other drones, 8 mos later I was bored to tears with it, had to change something. Now I'm back in a manual turbo.
I suspect a similar phenomena will happen with the 3. Initial hoopla and "gots to have it", followed by boredom and ultimately trade ins a yr or so later.
I traded my first 997tt in on a 997.2tts, at first I used manual mode all the time. After about a month I was just in D commuting with the other drones, 8 mos later I was bored to tears with it, had to change something. Now I'm back in a manual turbo.
I suspect a similar phenomena will happen with the 3. Initial hoopla and "gots to have it", followed by boredom and ultimately trade ins a yr or so later.
06-01-2013, 12:55 PM
#19
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Anyone who finds driving PDK on the track to be "boring" or "less exciting" than driving a MT is definitely
driving FAR too slowly. As Walter Roehl has said, for the good track driver, it simply raises the bar, lowers the lap times and elevates the challenges to a different and higher level.
In 40 years of track driving and racing, I have never driven "The Perfect Lap" and, believe me, neither have any of us. PDK will brings us all one step closer to it - but, unless we are driving and racing professionally, we will never reach it. How can this possibly be boring??????
Daily driving a fast car in traffic - Now that is really boring. So for you MT addicts, the solution is easy.
For $10K used or $25K new, buy yourself a small, nimble, underpowered DD driver
driving FAR too slowly. As Walter Roehl has said, for the good track driver, it simply raises the bar, lowers the lap times and elevates the challenges to a different and higher level.
In 40 years of track driving and racing, I have never driven "The Perfect Lap" and, believe me, neither have any of us. PDK will brings us all one step closer to it - but, unless we are driving and racing professionally, we will never reach it. How can this possibly be boring??????
Daily driving a fast car in traffic - Now that is really boring. So for you MT addicts, the solution is easy.
For $10K used or $25K new, buy yourself a small, nimble, underpowered DD driver
That in itself is a self contradictory statement as the fast guys in manuals are still going to be the fast guys with pdk. And most of the fast guys are the ones who think pdk is boring because they dont require it to go fast.
I would say its the exact opposite of what you claim.
Going fast in a manual is much more challenging because you have to do more things right to be fast.
Nothing that makes driving easier makes it more challenging. What do you expect Walter to say?
06-01-2013, 01:29 PM
#20
???? Really ????
Where do you come from ?
As you're new here, let me tell you something, we usually don't act with hostility towards other members, specially 'The new kid on the block'.
This is not an import forum full of kids arguing about their cold air intake.
Where do you come from ?
As you're new here, let me tell you something, we usually don't act with hostility towards other members, specially 'The new kid on the block'.
This is not an import forum full of kids arguing about their cold air intake.
06-01-2013, 01:41 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Can't blame Porsche? Does anyone on this forum run a business?
And if you had an opportunity to sell more widgets would you say no?
In effect this is what the PDK in PDK-S does, ie bring new customers into the bucket. And the S in PDK-S keep the old ones interested.
Yeah I hear everyone saying they are cannibalizing the old ones but really what other choice in the market place do you have? And don't say Aston Martin, lotus, viper or corvette, please.
And if you had an opportunity to sell more widgets would you say no?
In effect this is what the PDK in PDK-S does, ie bring new customers into the bucket. And the S in PDK-S keep the old ones interested.
Yeah I hear everyone saying they are cannibalizing the old ones but really what other choice in the market place do you have? And don't say Aston Martin, lotus, viper or corvette, please.
in summary, loss of those who actually use their cars and give P some service dollars, redistribution of other existing customers from other models and the gaining of tools with too many dollars and no ability nor appreciation for the brand. Yep all GT3s will sell, the question is what kind of clientele following will it bring to the brand...
That in itself is a self contradictory statement as the fast guys in manuals are still going to be the fast guys with pdk. And most of the fast guys are the ones who think pdk is boring because they dont require it to go fast.
I would say its the exact opposite of what you claim.
Going fast in a manual is much more challenging because you have to do more things right to be fast.
Nothing that makes driving easier makes it more challenging. What do you expect Walter to say?
I would say its the exact opposite of what you claim.
Going fast in a manual is much more challenging because you have to do more things right to be fast.
Nothing that makes driving easier makes it more challenging. What do you expect Walter to say?
06-01-2013, 02:07 PM
#22
Race Director
The pdk isn't boring on the track......but it is on the street, where 90% of your driving occurs.
I traded my first 997tt in on a 997.2tts, at first I used manual mode all the time. After about a month I was just in D commuting with the other drones, 8 mos later I was bored to tears with it, had to change something.
I traded my first 997tt in on a 997.2tts, at first I used manual mode all the time. After about a month I was just in D commuting with the other drones, 8 mos later I was bored to tears with it, had to change something.
I know I'm repeating myself but having driven manuals for 40 years, I've had a PDK in my C2S for the last 4. Drive it in manual 99% of the time, keep finding new ways to use it to advantage, the opposite of bored. I expect PDK-S in the GT3 to be exponentially better. As Herr Hatz says, a huge step: as though PDK skipped a generation of development.This thread is like all the others on this subject; totally devoid of personal knowledge of the new car and gearbox and based completely on speculation, assumption, and guesswork. There's not a single argument posted here that can be backed by first hand factual experience with the new drivetrain, including my own. It's another discussion in a vacuum, from how boring the car will be to drive to how it will offer no challenge, but I suppose it gives us all something to do. Carry on.....
06-01-2013, 02:37 PM
#23
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The very first third party article im aware of, the journalists still would have rather had a manual. Thats pretty first hand. They went into it as many of us would, and still left wanting a manual.
I guess AP cant control what everybody says. They surely did not find the pdk more involving than a manual.
But you can keep hope alive as long as you choose to ignore the obvious. Pdk is not as fun. Period.
I guess AP cant control what everybody says. They surely did not find the pdk more involving than a manual.
But you can keep hope alive as long as you choose to ignore the obvious. Pdk is not as fun. Period.
06-01-2013, 03:09 PM
#24
Race Director
The very first third party article im aware of, the journalists still would have rather had a manual. Thats pretty first hand. They went into it as many of us would, and still left wanting a manual.
I guess AP cant control what everybody says. They surely did not find the pdk more involving than a manual.
But you can keep hope alive as long as you choose to ignore the obvious. Pdk is not as fun. Period.
I guess AP cant control what everybody says. They surely did not find the pdk more involving than a manual.
But you can keep hope alive as long as you choose to ignore the obvious. Pdk is not as fun. Period.
Look, I get that you have your personal perspective on this and I have no expectation of changing it. But when you say that "surely they did not find the PDK more involving", you're simply guessing. I know and have corresponded with people who most definitely had their mind changed by their experiences with PDK-S.
More important, I don't have to "keep hope alive" or "ignore the obvious". I have 4 years of real first hand experience to fall back on. My PDK car is as fun to drive as any MT Porsche I've owned; different in some ways, but just as much fun. I expect PDK-S mated to a 9K RPM motor will be spectacularly entertaining. You have your subjective opinion, that's mine. Period.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 06-01-2013 at 03:43 PM. Reason: typo
06-01-2013, 04:20 PM
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Did that info come from a "third party article" or "pretty first hand"? Can't be both. It wasn't "journalists", it was a single writer who had previously expressed a bias for MT's when he tested the 458, commenting on a preview drive, not a test. Nothing wrong with that, we all have our biases, but it's hardly definitive.
Look, I get that you have your personal perspective on this and I have no expectation of changing it. But when you say that "surely they did not find the PDK more involving", you're simply guessing. I know and have corresponded with people who most definitely had their mind changed by their experiences with PDK-S.
More important, I don't have to "keep hope alive" or "ignore the obvious". I have 4 years of real first hand experience to fall back on. My PDK car is as fun to drive as any MT Porsche I've owned; different in some ways, but just as much fun. I expect PDK-S mated to a 9K RPM motor will be spectacularly entertaining. You have your subjective opinion, that's mine. Period.
Look, I get that you have your personal perspective on this and I have no expectation of changing it. But when you say that "surely they did not find the PDK more involving", you're simply guessing. I know and have corresponded with people who most definitely had their mind changed by their experiences with PDK-S.
More important, I don't have to "keep hope alive" or "ignore the obvious". I have 4 years of real first hand experience to fall back on. My PDK car is as fun to drive as any MT Porsche I've owned; different in some ways, but just as much fun. I expect PDK-S mated to a 9K RPM motor will be spectacularly entertaining. You have your subjective opinion, that's mine. Period.
Common sense tells anyone who isn't ignoring it that if he felt the PDK-S more involving than a manual, when that is the SOLE reason people don't want PDK, then he wouldn't have left wanting a manual.
And the rest of us have many many years of driving manual that no flappy paddle transmission can replace. Ferrari's single clutch was as close as it got, and even that is gone. No one really cares how long you have drive PDK, it's not going to change our mind nor does it make your opinion any more valid.
You are just going to have to accept that.
I hope to be proven wrong but as I see it Porsche will lose a big proportion of their enthusiast crowd who currently update/add with each release or two and spend **** loads on consumables and wear/tear parts, they will redirect wannabes out of Carrera Ss and turbos into the new easy to DD big thing and add insult to injury by scoring a few of those enthusiast owners (note: sarcasm!) who buy lambos and ferraris to boulevard cruise 3 times a year... A very dignified way for a GT car to exist!...
in summary, loss of those who actually use their cars and give P some service dollars, redistribution of other existing customers from other models and the gaining of tools with too many dollars and no ability nor appreciation for the brand. Yep all GT3s will sell, the question is what kind of clientele following will it bring to the brand...
in summary, loss of those who actually use their cars and give P some service dollars, redistribution of other existing customers from other models and the gaining of tools with too many dollars and no ability nor appreciation for the brand. Yep all GT3s will sell, the question is what kind of clientele following will it bring to the brand...
06-01-2013, 04:36 PM
#26
I have to agree that it can't be, no way, by any means more involving.
I find myself being unbiased, and I have no brand loyalty, besides the fact that Porsche used to and still does produce the best product in the market in my opinion and for the use that I have.
I had, tested, drove a lot of the late high end cars, and I always find myself going back to Porsche.
The car that lasted a long time in my garage was a GTR, but only as a street car use in mind as they are worthless at the track, and at the moment I got a C63 the Gtr collected dust for months without being even started.
So yes I have experience with PDK or dual clutch cars and don't love it.
I'm willing to learn the new GT3 and hoping it will be great, but I can't see myself bring in love with a PDK car.
For street I'll have a slush box from AMG, for track a manual Porsche.
I find myself being unbiased, and I have no brand loyalty, besides the fact that Porsche used to and still does produce the best product in the market in my opinion and for the use that I have.
I had, tested, drove a lot of the late high end cars, and I always find myself going back to Porsche.
The car that lasted a long time in my garage was a GTR, but only as a street car use in mind as they are worthless at the track, and at the moment I got a C63 the Gtr collected dust for months without being even started.
So yes I have experience with PDK or dual clutch cars and don't love it.
I'm willing to learn the new GT3 and hoping it will be great, but I can't see myself bring in love with a PDK car.
For street I'll have a slush box from AMG, for track a manual Porsche.
06-01-2013, 04:45 PM
#27
No disrespect to the Road & Track article (which clearly wasn't a test), but I'm not yet worried unless a proper all-out test has been conducted by an objective, non-prejudiced journalist, who can really drive and has a very outspoken opinion... (even if that means being banned by an Italian manufacturer who's go a horse in it's logo too)
Let's bring on Chris Harris. If he assesses the car to be boring, nannied, overly digitalized, too heavy and having lost its GT3 appeal, I'll be devastated. But I doubt it, based on Porsche past GT3 performance only.
I accept that my position is highly conjectured. But so are the opposite ones, I think...
Let's bring on Chris Harris. If he assesses the car to be boring, nannied, overly digitalized, too heavy and having lost its GT3 appeal, I'll be devastated. But I doubt it, based on Porsche past GT3 performance only.
I accept that my position is highly conjectured. But so are the opposite ones, I think...
06-01-2013, 04:57 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
mt
It does raise the bar and allows those who are perpetually challenged with the quick sequence of heel n toe with the speed and precision required for trail braking and throttle steer out of a corner. Mastering this makes you fast and can also ruin your gearbox and synchros if you don't know what your doing!! Pdk removes this athletic requirement and you can focus on less things thereby improving your lap times.
06-01-2013, 05:02 PM
#29
Race Director
The reason I brought up my experience with PDK wasn't to prove that PDK was better. It was because you said I was relying on hope and ignoring the obvious that a MT is unquestionably more fun. It's not more obvious at all, to me, and I have a basis for saying so.
To use your own words, your opinion isn't any more valid than mine either. We have a subjective disagreement and I'm perfectly capable of accepting that, but I have my doubts about whether those on your side of this conversation can, since they are invariably the ones who resurrect this poor dead horse.
Please prove me wrong so that we can move on to discussing something that hasn't already been beaten senseless.
