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Faster on track GT3 or TT?

 
Old 05-20-2013, 11:09 AM
  #91  
Mike in CA
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Mike, no matter how you slice it, it's still presumptuous. Porsche could easily have tried to make the PDK "more involving" than the manual and worsened the experience by trying to make it like a true racing sequential. There are a large number of nuances that could make the PDK-S less desirable than the original 2 PDK's.

The FACT is that you have NO IDEA how people will like it compared to the other generations or if the differences will be enough to bother giving much attention to. Or if some of the modifications have added some bad characteristics along with the good. Yet you couldn't tell by reading the post.
wanna911, I actually don't disagree with most of what you say here, except for the first and last sentences. It is possible that some people may prefer the way the original PDK works, and it's true I have no idea how everyone else will like PDK-S. In fact, I pretty much said that when I acknowledged that some buyers might not care about the differences and others, like Peter, might, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring that up. I simply provided info on the differences between PDK and PDK-S and thought it relevant that the TT and GT3 would get different versions.

Again, I stated the obvious fact that the two PDK's will be very different to use, based on my own extensive experience with the original. I went on to say later that PDK-S will be more involving, as in requiring more driver input (which seems to be important to many here), not necessarily eliciting more driver emotion. I left it to Peter, you, and others to decide whether you think the emotion might be there. I have a pretty good idea about that, but I'll withhold final judgement until I drive the car.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:24 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by TRAKCAR View Post
Or do I have it wrong and the PDK-S does not creep, hold uphill, etc. in any setting?
If you look at the info Macca provided a few posts above this, it shows for PDK-S "No Crawl". I realize it's dangerous to assume, but I think that means that PDK-S does not creep in any mode. Elsewhere the info also mentions how all special auto feaures like ECO mode, sailing, start stop, (and I would bet hill hold) are also missing from PDK-S as a way to reduce complexity in the gearbox, increase reliability, and presumably reduce weight. Again, an assumption, but I'd guess that's why the TT doesn't have PDK-S and the more "hard core" GT3 does.

Should Porsche have allowed a choice and made PDK-S an option for the TT or TTS? Not gonna touch that one....
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:56 AM
  #93  
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What's the difference between PDK and PDK-S besides shorter gear ratios and different software?
It sounds to me that it's just a faster PDK,which I've driven and wasn't impressed... How is PDK-S more fun and more involving?
I'm sure the GT3 will be fun,but then again any Porsche driven fast at the track is fun.

From Porsche's press release :

'' Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) with special 911 GT3 layout
The dual-clutch transmission (Porsche Doppelkupplung -- PDK) originates from Porsche racing, and with the 911 GT3 it returns to the racetrack. The motor sports engineers have revised the PDK extensively both in terms of mechanics and control technology for the new car. The resulting transmission provides the driver with all the essential driving dynamics of the previous manual transmission, complemented with the performance benefits of the dual-clutch transmission. During race track use, it can therefore be driven much like a sequential manual gearbox – with even more performance and emotional driving fun.

Two modes are available to the driver: manual shifting or the adaptive shift programme. Manual shifting is achieved using two paddles on the steering wheel, the left-hand for upshifts and the right-hand for downshifts. Shorter shifting travel and optimised actuating force result in even faster gearshifts with concise feedback, similar to the operating characteristics of the 911 GT3 Cup race car. Alternatively, the driver can also shift using the selector lever, with a shift pattern based on that used in professional motor sports: shifting up is done by pulling the lever back, shifting down by pushing it forward.

Ready for the racetrack: ‘lightning shifts’ with extremely short reaction and gearshift times

Gear-shifting strategy and response times of the 911 GT3 PDK have been consistently designed for maximum performance, and both are fundamentally different to other Porsche sports cars. This becomes apparent to the driver during manual upshifts in the form of a ‘lightning shift’, which permits reaction times of less than 100 milliseconds. To enhance driving performance, lightning shifts are implemented with a torque overshoot, and the gear change is conducted with a highly dynamic adaptation of the engine speed to the newly selected gear. The switching times are in a range that was previously reserved for the world of motor sports.

Paddle-neutral: the de-clutching function of the 911 GT3 PDK

The dynamics of a sports car driven to achieve optimum lap times is also determined by the clutch. That is why the PDK comes with a ‘paddle-neutral’ feature. If the driver pulls both shift paddles simultaneously, the clutches of the PDK are opened, and the flow of power between the engine and drive is cut off. Once both shift paddles are released, the clutch engages very rapidly if the PSM is switched off. With PSM switched on, the clutch is closed quickly, but in a less pulsed manner.

This function offers two principal advantages: the driver can, for example, neutralise the driving behaviour of the vehicle when understeering in a wet curve by pulling the paddles, and thus ‘dip the clutch’ and re-direct additional cornering force to the wheels of the front axle.

The second aspect relates to individual influence of the driving dynamics due to the pulsed onset of the driving force when engaging the clutch. Comparable to a traditional clutch with a manual transmission, the rear of the vehicle can be consciously destabilised for dynamic leaning into the curve. Furthermore, the driver can use the paddle-neutral for accelerating from a standstill. As is the case with manual transmission vehicles, the driver alone decides on how to accelerate using clutch and accelerator foot, without any assistance from drive and dynamic handling control systems.

Adaptive shifting with sports strategies
For the first time, the PDK provides the driver of the new 911 GT3 with the alternative of leaving gear shifts to the adaptive transmission control. In principle, the PDK of the new 911 GT3 only comes with two switching strategies: Sport and Race Track. This means that the gear changes are always fast. Gear shifts and shift points are adapted to the dynamic style of the driver. Race Track mode is activated by pressing the correspondingly labelled button on the centre console. In this mode, the PDK uses shift maps that are tailored to the requirements of pure race track operation. Gears are held longer, and upshifts occur at higher engine speeds. The race track optimisation also entails that the shifting programme is still performance-oriented, even at a moderately sporting driving style. The car is therefore always running at the performance-oriented operating points, and increased traction is available at any time without the driver having to shift gears.

Shorter gear ratios
The mechanical changes primarily relate to the internal structure of the PDK. For instance, the use of lighter gears and wheels optimally support the engine speed dynamics of the high-revving motor. Moreover, the total weight of the PDK transmission has been reduced by about two kilogrammes. Shorter gear ratios provide completely new characteristics, meaning that the maximum speed is reached in the seventh and highest gear. In conjunction with the rear axle ratio, which was shortened by 15 per cent, the new 911 GT3 therefore comes with significantly shorter gear ratios than the transmission ratios of a 911 Carrera models – in all gears. ''
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:06 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by TRAKCAR View Post
Have you felt electronic steering? No one has in the GT3 but the gap or driving feel might be limited to PDK and Torque VS RPM....
The steering is the one thing im wondering about beyond everything else in the 991 line up.
Im wondering what it will be like compared to what we have and enjoy in our 997RS porsches..

I love the feedback i get from the steering in a 997RS. It is one of the coolest feelings when coming from a vette, camaro, mustang etc..
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:40 PM
  #95  
Mike in CA
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Originally Posted by neanicu View Post
What's the difference between PDK and PDK-S besides shorter gear ratios and different software?
It sounds to me that it's just a faster PDK,which I've driven and wasn't impressed... How is PDK-S more fun and more involving?
I'm sure the GT3 will be fun,but then again any Porsche driven fast at the track is fun.

'
Let's mostly stay away from the "more fun and emotionally involving" discussion ok? It's a dead end, subjective topic.

Much of what follows is in the info posted by Macca earlier, but besides the shorter gears and different software, PDK and PDK-S have several differences. PDK (w/SC) has 3 shift maps; Normal, Sport and Sport Plus. PDK-S has 2; Sport and Race. In Normal mode PDK has features like Auto Start/Stop, "Sail Mode" which disengages the clutches for better economy when off the throttle, and an ECO feature which upshifts early, also for economy. PDK-S does none of this in either mode. There are also the minor differences in paddle throw, paddle response, and reversal of the console gearshift operation. My version of PDK doesn't have the paddle neutral feature; I believe the latest 991 Carreras do, including, of course, the 991 GT3.

PDK "creeps" without throttle input to mimic the action of a normal torque converter automatic when you let off the brake, by allowing very slight clutch engagement when off the brake even without throttle application. PDK-S doesn't do this; you have to feather the throttle to get the car rolling smoothly at low speeds, much like with a normal clutch.

Probably one of the biggest differences between the two, besides shift maps and speed, is in manual mode. Assume you're using manual in a regular PDK in 4th or 5th gear tooling along at 50mph and you suddenly decide to accelerate because a passing opportunity opens up or for some other reason. If you mash the throttle, even without a manual downshift PDK will kickdown to the lowest appropriate gear. Porsche calls this "panic shifting mode". Moreover, as long as you keep your foot down PDK will continue to upshift automatically at redline in each succesive gear until you let off the throttle at which time it returns to manual.

PDK-S, OTOH, has no kickdown feature in manual mode. If you floor the throttle in 5th gear at relatively low rpm, the engine will bog, just like a manual. In manual mode, PDK-S forces you to downshift for proper acceleration. At redline, again in manual mode, it won't upshift automatically under any circumstances; like a manual, you must upshift for yourself or the engine will hit the limiter. According to the tech literature, in manual mode PDK-S will neither upshift or downshift by itself, so it's also possible to lug the engine when slowing down. I suspect it might not let you actually stall the engine, but that's unclear from what I've read.

These differences require the driver to have more input and be more attentive with PDK-S than PDK. Without making any comparisons to a MT, in that sense PDK-S is more "involving" than PDK. Personally, I also think these differences will make PDK-S more "fun" and "emotional" than PDK, but that's probably just the kool-aid talking.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:52 PM
  #96  
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PDK-S eliminates the most annoying part of PDK, is when you want to floor it out of a corner is downshifts, when you want to hold a gear.

If you choose to bounce of the limiter for a second or 2 before braking, you can.

No idea what the no-creep is for.
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:17 PM
  #97  
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I you track at high altitude (High Plains, Miller Motorsports, etc.), there is a much bigger power/torque advantage to the Turbo than at sea level.
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:29 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post

Let's mostly stay away from the "more fun and emotionally involving" discussion ok? It's a dead end, subjective topic.

Much of what follows is in the info posted by Macca earlier, but besides the shorter gears and different software, PDK and PDK-S have several differences. PDK (w/SC) has 3 shift maps; Normal, Sport and Sport Plus. PDK-S has 2; Sport and Race. In Normal mode PDK has features like Auto Start/Stop, "Sail Mode" which disengages the clutches for better economy when off the throttle, and an ECO feature which upshifts early, also for economy. PDK-S does none of this in either mode. There are also the minor differences in paddle throw, paddle response, and reversal of the console gearshift operation. My version of PDK doesn't have the paddle neutral feature; I believe the latest 991 Carreras do, including, of course, the 991 GT3.

PDK "creeps" without throttle input to mimic the action of a normal torque converter automatic when you let off the brake, by allowing very slight clutch engagement when off the brake even without throttle application. PDK-S doesn't do this; you have to feather the throttle to get the car rolling smoothly at low speeds, much like with a normal clutch.

Probably one of the biggest differences between the two, besides shift maps and speed, is in manual mode. Assume you're using manual in a regular PDK in 4th or 5th gear tooling along at 50mph and you suddenly decide to accelerate because a passing opportunity opens up or for some other reason. If you mash the throttle, even without a manual downshift PDK will kickdown to the lowest appropriate gear. Porsche calls this "panic shifting mode". Moreover, as long as you keep your foot down PDK will continue to upshift automatically at redline in each succesive gear until you let off the throttle at which time it returns to manual.

PDK-S, OTOH, has no kickdown feature in manual mode. If you floor the throttle in 5th gear at relatively low rpm, the engine will bog, just like a manual. In manual mode, PDK-S forces you to downshift for proper acceleration. At redline, again in manual mode, it won't upshift automatically under any circumstances; like a manual, you must upshift for yourself or the engine will hit the limiter. According to the tech literature, in manual mode PDK-S will neither upshift or downshift by itself, so it's also possible to lug the engine when slowing down. I suspect it might not let you actually stall the engine, but that's unclear from what I've read.

These differences require the driver to have more input and be more attentive with PDK-S than PDK. Without making any comparisons to a MT, in that sense PDK-S is more "involving" than PDK. Personally, I also think these differences will make PDK-S more "fun" and "emotional" than PDK, but that's probably just the kool-aid talking.
Thanks for the explanation Mike!
That doesn't sound too bad...at least if you want '' involving '' you can drive it in '' manual '' mode all the time and if you're at the track,you'll have to pay attention not to overrev the engine and make sure you're in the right gear. I guess people will just have to get used not using their left leg(or they can do left foot braking). And if you're like me and you don't like paddles too much,you can shift like a sequential.
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:52 PM
  #99  
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I expect the PDK is going to be a huge hit in the GT3 and will broaden its market appeal [more sales]. I sure wish my Cup Car had flappy paddles when I was racing in the Grand Am Rolex series
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:43 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by neanicu View Post
Thanks for the explanation Mike!
That doesn't sound too bad...at least if you want '' involving '' you can drive it in '' manual '' mode all the time and if you're at the track,you'll have to pay attention not to overrev the engine and make sure you're in the right gear. I guess people will just have to get used not using their left leg(or they can do left foot braking). And if you're like me and you don't like paddles too much,you can shift like a sequential.
It still won't let you over-rev the engine, only bounce off the rev limiter. The computer will prevent engine damage.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:57 PM
  #101  
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Quick question: Coasting to a stop with the current PDK, the transmission will auto downshift to first gear. What will the PDK- S do? Thanks, Allan
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:31 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by allans View Post
Quick question: Coasting to a stop with the current PDK, the transmission will auto downshift to first gear. What will the PDK- S do? Thanks, Allan
Porsche just copied all the sequential transmission behavior in the Scuderia/16M/599GTO, so it should downshift by itself near 1,000 rpm to call it an exact copy.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:09 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
PDK-S has 2; Sport and Race.

PDK-S doesn't do this; you have to feather the throttle to get the car rolling smoothly at low speeds, much like with a normal clutch.



PDK-S, OTOH, has no kickdown feature in manual mode. If you floor the throttle in 5th gear at relatively low rpm, the engine will bog, just like a manual. In manual mode, PDK-S forces you to downshift for proper acceleration. At redline, again in manual mode, it won't upshift automatically under any circumstances; like a manual, you must upshift for yourself or the engine will hit the limiter. According to the tech literature, in manual mode PDK-S will neither upshift or downshift by itself, so it's also possible to lug the engine when slowing down. I suspect it might not let you actually stall the engine, but that's unclear from what I've read.
Mike: You just described the operation of the F1 DCT in the 458 Italia. If PDK-S is equal to 75% of the F1, it will be flat out incredible. My guess is that for an above average DE Cup driver, PDK-S will be worth at least two seconds in a 2:00 lap vs. a six or seven speed stick.

The F1 does down shift when coasting to a stop, even in manual mode, so my guess is that the PDK-S will do the same.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:33 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by allans View Post
Quick question: Coasting to a stop with the current PDK, the transmission will auto downshift to first gear. What will the PDK- S do? Thanks, Allan
Originally Posted by MM3.9GT3 View Post
Mike: You just described the operation of the F1 DCT in the 458 Italia. If PDK-S is equal to 75% of the F1, it will be flat out incredible. My guess is that for an above average DE Cup driver, PDK-S will be worth at least two seconds in a 2:00 lap vs. a six or seven speed stick.

The F1 does down shift when coasting to a stop, even in manual mode, so my guess is that the PDK-S will do the same.
As MM3 says, downshifting to first at a stop rather than letting the engine stall sure makes sense.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:02 PM
  #105  
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ok, I looked it up what was written here and just going to say what I think. I am an enthusiast. I do not need fastest car on the planet. I just need something that is not going to kill me if it suddenly brakes on a street or on a track.
especially on a track. so in my opinion the simpler it is - the better it is. what if this new rear turn system dies in the middle of the turn and rotates your rear wheels sideways in the WGI esses at 120mph? was anything in that new car really built up to sustain Gs and load from hoosiers? the answer is simple 'no' - read all materials that factory ppl were leaking. all they cared about was to make this model assembled on same line where all street cars get built. that`s all.
it is not a downsized 991 cup car anymore like 997 RS car was, or even any 997 street car was. and therefore it lost all its practical value.

I looked what factory says about it in the latest panorama - they say multiple times - it is a STREET car that is capable of doing SEVERAL fun track laps. it is not a downgraded cup car that was partially true for old GT3, especially after you 'fix' it with all required cup car parts and enforced racing parts, they say it again and again - it is a _street_ car. you want a track car - go buy our cup car. end of story.

so for me new GT3 car nevermind its wonderful PDK, its new self-turning mechanisms, it is way overcomplicated tool to be used in the environment it was not designed for. it makes much more sense to buy 997 or 996 cup car and follow motorsports schedule for its maintenance than to deal with unpredictability of what can possibly fail in the overcomplicated mechanism that is getting abused in non-street conditions.
unless of course you just take off all that 991 specific crap and put in there normal bulletproofed motons or ohlins, remove all movable breakable parts from suspension, put in proper cup car steering that will not decide to turn car in the opposite direction if cheap china made chip will decide to fail, etc. and I am not a racing team - I have no budget to shell out for new PDK unit every 3-4 years as old one gets killed. anyone saw replacement kits for PDK yet? or has any shop nearby that can open PDK units and fix them on your out of warranty track car? I do not.

or just never get this 991 car close to the track and drive it where it was designed to be driven - on a street on its 'normal' 20 inch street tires.

PS. I am sure total majority of customers will absolutely love that new car, especially while it is on factory warranty and all that GT-R like crap gets fixed for free. For me, I do not even want to think of fixing and maintaining anything of that 'new' stuff in that car myself. my 997 now has more than enough parts to deal with and it all works just fine for a combo street-track car. I need no PDK as I do not race it, I drive it for fun. I only need replacement parts to be cheap and procedures to follow to be simple enough so I can do most of them myself. I do not think I will be able to fix anything in the 991 generation car myself, but who knows. will see.

Last edited by utkinpol; 05-21-2013 at 05:23 PM.
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