Notices
991 GT3 GT3RS and 911R
Sponsored by:

Faster on track GT3 or TT?

 
Old 05-18-2013, 03:20 PM
  #76  
P_collector
User
 
P_collector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 768
Default

Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
I'm not the least bit interested in any of the cars you mention so if they are faster, so be it. A sub 7:30 Ring time ( no matter how "sub") means the car is beyond my ability to drive it to it's limit so a few seconds one way or another is irrelevant. But don't be completely shocked if you end up buying a beer or two......
Mike,

Very valid point...all this lap time discussion is for me mostly bs anyway..as you say - most of us cant replicate it. But what I dont like is that Porsche is lately publishing lap times that could not at all be verified. Thats why I only look at independent reviews..factory lap times by Porsche, Nissan or Ferrari dont interest me much..

If I have to offer one beer..you would get that second one

All the best,
P_collector is offline  
Old 05-18-2013, 03:26 PM
  #77  
P_collector
User
 
P_collector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 768
Default

Originally Posted by Macca View Post
LOL! Porsche collector. Its no secret you are negative on the 991 GT3...

If you think Im going to be dissapointed that my new 991 GT3 is a few seconds slower than a McLaren or a 458 on the Ring or a second slower on Hockenheim then your quite mistaken! Im my market those cars are "supercars" and over 50% more expensive than the new 991 GT3. If that is the actual outcome then Id be quite proud a modified production 911 GT car can hold such a close competition to those exotics.

Ive seen the proposed 1.08 hokenhiem time in the German magazine showing it beating the McLaren and 458 and I take that time with a large pinch of salt. I dont expect it will be that low. However I might add I know second hand from a friend that the GT3 put in 7.26 on test laps before the final tuning was done so Im also very consious Porsche are holding the Ring times very close to their chest until the end and will likely order these in such a way to "meet the market". I think you will find the GT3, TT & TTS are all grouped very close together...
Hi Macca,

Well, Im at least happy that my comment made you laugh..

Laptimes..no reason to discuss it anymore..I will wait for the Sport Auto test..and then we will see. Youre a die hard fan of the 991 GT3...no matter how it does compareed to the 458, 4-12 etc..thats good..at least youre fully convinced of it...

One more thing, you can blame me maybe for many things...but I was never against PdK..I was/I am against that Porsche doesnt offer an Manual option anymore - thats all.

A company should always deliver what he customer asks for..there are Pdk customers..and there are still a few manual customers out there. I guess you wont disagree..that there is still some MT fans...
P_collector is offline  
Old 05-18-2013, 04:01 PM
  #78  
Mike in CA
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Mike in CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: North Bay Area, CA
Posts: 11,865
Default

Originally Posted by Porsche.collector View Post
Mike,

Very valid point...all this lap time discussion is for me mostly bs anyway..as you say - most of us cant replicate it. But what I dont like is that Porsche is lately publishing lap times that could not at all be verified. Thats why I only look at independent reviews..factory lap times by Porsche, Nissan or Ferrari dont interest me much..

If I have to offer one beer..you would get that second one

All the best,
Andreas, it would be my pleasure.....
Mike in CA is offline  
Old 05-19-2013, 01:36 PM
  #79  
TRAKCAR
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
TRAKCAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 27,145
Default

Originally Posted by F1CrazyDriver View Post
The gt3 will give "sportier feel " I'm sure, and out of the gates it is going to "feel faster " due to the sportier suspension supplied from the factory. Some say its the finest of an N/A engine and learning to go fast without all that power. I call BS. IF that is true, get a miata, get an old 911 with beefed up suspension and no hpower ( 964) . GT3 mask driver errors to. I see them in 90% of the drivers out there at the track. To master a Turbo, it takes a lot of finesse like a gt3. A semi pro driver I met at Pete's track day, looked at me funny .. i explained to him the difference in throttle application before the apex/at apex/after the apex with a gt3 vs a turbo....he told me a gt3 is faster then my turbo yada yada.... On my 14th lap ever on that track, i broke his personal best lap record, and he claimed to have done over 500 laps. Go figure. And this is from a guy whom has less than 20 track days with his turbo, in 7 years.
So it seems to me that tire for tire the new Turbo will be faster at least at all the bigger tracks like Sebring, Daytona, Road ATL, VIR etc. etc..

I agree that a Turbo requires the same and maybe more skill. It kept me from buying the GT2RS. Just too much money to find out if I like it, when I know a 4.0 is easy and knew for sure i'd love it.

"Feel" is subjective, I cant write off PDK because I have not spend enough time in one at the track, but I THINK I will get bored with it. Learning left foot braking might be fun, or frustrating. Drove a PDK Cayman S this weekend not on track just to see if I fit in it. I do. So I think for the new manual Cayman S with a faster engine might "feel" like the most fun. 90K with a 991S 3.8 is 375HP to the wheels, I got the Dyno sheet yesterday. 2900lbs.

If not at Porsche, you can have a manual Corvette for 60K. For 60K I might buy one just to see what it feels like. 450HP 450tq, 3200lbs, manual.

Driving a PDK TT, Cayman manual, Corvette and GT2RS along with the 991 GT3 would answer a lot of my questions, but unfortunately you have to buy the cars to use them a weekend at Sebring..

If someone wants to try out a 01 Rustang, all you have to do is ask LOL.

Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
For months people have been mocking the 991 GT3 for being overweight and now a much heavier TT is being touted as a better track car. The GT3 weighs 3153, the TT comes in at 3516; that's 363 reasons why I'd rather have the GT3.

TEHO, of course, but a little consistency at least, gentlemen!
I can imagine a new 981 Cayman R, manual 2800lbs 400-475HP.
My post was which one is faster. Just because lap times are mentioned by Porsche to make the car less fun (to some) so why not go fasterder.

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Read more carefully faster does not equal better. No one has said it will be better.

The harp on the weight of the gt3 is relative to its predecessors and all of the unhappy unneeded electronic aids making it heavier when it could be MUCH lighter. The turbo has been about 3500 lbs for 3 generations, so it's not getting fatter.
I found out this weekend that torque vectoring actually applies the rear brakes electronically on the Caymen S

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
That's the point of this whole thread........ The GT3 is no longer a raw analog machine, it's computerized and chock full of drivers aids. If you are going to buy that, at this point you might as well opt for the computerized chock full of drivers aids car that has turbos and is faster.

You think Peter would be posting this thread if the 991 GT3 had a lightweight manual, no rws in it with normal sized wheels?

You post here enough to know that there is no way he would, he would have the first thing smoking off the ship and it would be at Sebring within a week or two (as long as it took him to get it clear bra'd).
Right on.

The GT3 will be a fine car, just not for analog guys that just got their first Iphone and still cant use it properly. I did get harry's laptimer to work yesterday but the I phone overheated in the car. LOL.
The durability will have to be proven, we will see. I have a deposit on the first RS if it all works out well.

I see the GT3 now much more as an occasional trackable car where we have race cars or old GT3's for the hard work (Or Rustangs LOL), I can see many potential buyers switch to the TT, it would just be a nicer car for driving around town with the boost and still outpace the GT3 at the track. Tire for tire.
TRAKCAR is offline  
Old 05-19-2013, 04:44 PM
  #80  
Mike in CA
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Mike in CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: North Bay Area, CA
Posts: 11,865
Default

I get what people are saying but I still think the GT3 will be as fast or faster overall than the Turbo (on track) in stock form. Too many variables with mods to make predictions and I'm not particularly interested in re-engineering a $150K+ car anyway. The Turbo S, especially with PDCC, may be faster although PDCC introduces still another layer of manipulation. We'll see once published times are available.

Regardless of of whether it matches the Turbo in raw speed, the GT3 is certain to be a less "civilized" car and that appeals to me. Besides how fast do you need to/can you go on the street? The extra $20 grand may buy some creature comforts that the GT3 doesn't have, but I personally don't care about that for this car. That's what the Cayenne S is for.
Mike in CA is offline  
Old 05-19-2013, 05:16 PM
  #81  
TRAKCAR
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
TRAKCAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 27,145
Default

Tire for tire test between these 2 would be awesome. Chris Harris should test a few cars against the GT3 might as well test it against TT.

I think on the street PDK TT does make sense. It's a real luxury to point and shoot to where you want to be NOW. With PDK it's always in boost, so no ore lag. Torque is wonderful maybe less fun, but talk about effortless speed and it still might be faster than a GT3 with all the comfort stuff and possibly be more durable at lower RPM's..
TRAKCAR is offline  
Old 05-19-2013, 10:34 PM
  #82  
Mike in CA
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Mike in CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: North Bay Area, CA
Posts: 11,865
Default

Originally Posted by TRAKCAR View Post
I think on the street PDK TT does make sense. It's a real luxury to point and shoot to where you want to be NOW. With PDK it's always in boost, so no ore lag.
Good points Peter. Something to consider when comparing PDK in the 2 cars is that the TT won't get PDK-S, so unlike the GT3 it has start-stop, coasting mode, ECO shifting mode, crawling, auto kickdown in manual mode, auto upshifts in some circumstances even in manual mode, etc. Manual mode with PDK-S does none of this.

Some may think that PDK is PDK, but those differences are significant and will lead to a very different driving experience. My opinion isn't based on marketing hype, but from 4 years of driving a PDK car and knowing how different PDK-S will be with the changed features.

These things may not make a difference to a TT buyer, but I think they will to a GT3 buyer or someone like yourself who might choose between the two cars. It just depends on the individual.
Mike in CA is offline  
Old 05-19-2013, 10:45 PM
  #83  
tcsracing1
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
tcsracing1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 16,309
Default

Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
Good points Peter. Something to consider when comparing PDK in the 2 cars is that the TT won't get PDK-S, so unlike the GT3 it has start-stop, coasting mode, ECO shifting mode, crawling, auto kickdown in manual mode, auto upshifts in some circumstances even in manual mode, etc. Manual mode with PDK-S does none of this.

Some may think that PDK is PDK, but those differences are significant and will lead to a very different driving experience. My opinion isn't based on marketing hype, but from 4 years of driving a PDK car and knowing how different PDK-S will be with the changed features.

These things may not make a difference to a TT buyer, but I think they will to a GT3 buyer or someone like yourself who might choose between the two cars. It just depends on the individual.
Indeed.
The GT3 PDK is supposed to be different then that of all the other PDK transmissions. More track oriented.
That mated to the 9000RPM will be the key differences compared to the turbo.

If both cars are still back to back in lap times, id say the GT3 wil take the nod for the 911 purist.
tcsracing1 is offline  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:33 AM
  #84  
wanna911
Super User
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
Good points Peter. Something to consider when comparing PDK in the 2 cars is that the TT won't get PDK-S, so unlike the GT3 it has start-stop, coasting mode, ECO shifting mode, crawling, auto kickdown in manual mode, auto upshifts in some circumstances even in manual mode, etc. Manual mode with PDK-S does none of this.

Some may think that PDK is PDK, but those differences are significant and will lead to a very different driving experience. My opinion isn't based on marketing hype, but from 4 years of driving a PDK car and knowing how different PDK-S will be with the changed features.

These things may not make a difference to a TT buyer, but I think they will to a GT3 buyer or someone like yourself who might choose between the two cars. It just depends on the individual.
Mighty presumptuous considering you haven't driven the GT3 yet but continuously preach for others to drive it before jumping to any conclusions. You couldn't possibly know anything having not driven it. And certainly no more than we know it won't be as fun or involving as a manual.....

And unfortunately, the 991 TT running 7:29 on non R-comp tires means it's still likely going to be faster than the 991 GT3 on the same tires unless the GT3 is very low 7:20's which is very unlikely.

Not only that, but for the vast majority of drivers, AWD will instill more confidence and they will still be point and shoot, advantage TT . The only question is how the Turbo will last with quite a few laps on it, will it heatsoak, brakes fade, etc.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:46 AM
  #85  
Macca
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Macca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 14,140
Default

Hey Champ.

Sure he can. Because hes read the dealer debrief (below) on the PDK-S, has owned half a dozen 911s and currently drives a PDK.

So. Yeah. He knows more than you know about PDK-S and his comments were justified and balanced. You don't have to drive the new 991 GT3 to understand its transmission is quite different from the standard PDK and has been optomised for this engine and application...
Attached Images    
Macca is offline  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:49 AM
  #86  
wanna911
Super User
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

You missed the point, as always. It's still speculation until he drives it. Just as much speculation as the rest of us who have driven the other iterations of PDK say there is still no way it's going to be as fun as a manual. Even with the gimmick double fap neutral mode.

Still waiting on some comprehension from you.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:56 AM
  #87  
Macca
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Macca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 14,140
Default

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
You missed the point, as always. It's still speculation until he drives it. Just as much speculation as the rest of us who have driven the other iterations of PDK say there is still no way it's going to be as fun as a manual. Even with the gimmick double fap neutral mode.

Still waiting on some comprehension from you.
I beg to differ.

Dont bother preparing for a knife fight if your opponent is armed with a gun (yes another idiom!). Make sure you have facts to hand before giving someone a bitch slap for making a fair and reasonable comment based on the information at hand.

Mike has been one of the more balanced and least emotional contributors on these threads and if you read carefully you will see he is simply saying that the new PDK-S appears to be quite a different beast to the current PDK. None of us have driven the car and so we are all speculating about how it will drive. There's also no denying it is quite a different proposition than a MT....
Macca is offline  
Old 05-20-2013, 03:14 AM
  #88  
Mike in CA
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Mike in CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: North Bay Area, CA
Posts: 11,865
Default

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Mighty presumptuous considering you haven't driven the GT3 yet but continuously preach for others to drive it before jumping to any conclusions. You couldn't possibly know anything having not driven it. And certainly no more than we know it won't be as fun or involving as a manual.....

And unfortunately, the 991 TT running 7:29 on non R-comp tires means it's still likely going to be faster than the 991 GT3 on the same tires unless the GT3 is very low 7:20's which is very unlikely.

Not only that, but for the vast majority of drivers, AWD will instill more confidence and they will still be point and shoot, advantage TT . The only question is how the Turbo will last with quite a few laps on it, will it heatsoak, brakes fade, etc.
All of what you say is interesting, but most of it is beside the point as far as comparing PDK and PDK-S, which was my intention in the post you're referring to.

You'll note I didn't attempt to make any comparisons between PDK-S and a manual; that conversation has been beaten to death and to bring it up again is pointless. I simply said that the driving experience will be different between PDK and PDK-S. That's not presumptuous because I'm very familiar with the current version of PDK and how it drives, whether at 5/10ths or 9/10ths. If PDK-S changes several major operating parameters, one doesn't have to be a genius to figure out it will be "very different" than PDK.

PDK-S in manual mode will require more involvement from the driver than PDK in manual mode based simply on the way the two function. That's a fact, and for that reason, among others, I think the GT3 will be a more driver oriented car than the TT, which previous to this particular conversation, seemed to be pretty important to most contributors to these threads.

Whether a manual is more "fun", whether one car is faster than the other, more confidence inspiring, or appeals to you more than the other, are all completely different discusssions.

Last edited by Mike in CA; 05-20-2013 at 03:43 AM.
Mike in CA is offline  
Old 05-20-2013, 05:58 AM
  #89  
wanna911
Super User
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

Mike, no matter how you slice it, it's still presumptuous. Porsche could easily have tried to make the PDK "more involving" than the manual and worsened the experience by trying to make it like a true racing sequential. There are a large number of nuances that could make the PDK-S less desirable than the original 2 PDK's.

The FACT is that you have NO IDEA how people will like it compared to the other generations or if the differences will be enough to bother giving much attention to. Or if some of the modifications have added some bad characteristics along with the good. Yet you couldn't tell by reading the post.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 05-20-2013, 08:55 AM
  #90  
TRAKCAR
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
TRAKCAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 27,145
Default

Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
Good points Peter. Something to consider when comparing PDK in the 2 cars is that the TT won't get PDK-S, so unlike the GT3 it has start-stop, coasting mode, ECO shifting mode, crawling, auto kickdown in manual mode, auto upshifts in some circumstances even in manual mode, etc. Manual mode with PDK-S does none of this.

Some may think that PDK is PDK, but those differences are significant and will lead to a very different driving experience. My opinion isn't based on marketing hype, but from 4 years of driving a PDK car and knowing how different PDK-S will be with the changed features.

These things may not make a difference to a TT buyer, but I think they will to a GT3 buyer or someone like yourself who might choose between the two cars. It just depends on the individual.
Thanks Mike, I missed that completely.
The Turbo S should have all the go fastest stuff, tires, PDK-S but than again I think every model should come in Cayman R / GT3 and RS track pack max offering.

This automatically eliminates the car of my "What if I learn to like PDK" fantasy list, smacks of dumbing it down like they dumb down the Cayman with a small engine in other wise a fantastic car to keep it from being as fast as a 991 at lower price point. TT and GT3 always were build to different customers and that can excuse more comfortable tires for example, but if the PDK-S can be full auto I cant see why a 185K TTS at least does not get it.

I am not a TT customer, but I think it will make a difference to the TT buyer. You buy a TT and even more so a TTS because it comes with everything and is the best do everything all around car for the most money. But not the PDK-S?

Originally Posted by tcsracing1 View Post
Indeed.
The GT3 PDK is supposed to be different then that of all the other PDK transmissions. More track oriented.
That mated to the 9000RPM will be the key differences compared to the turbo.

If both cars are still back to back in lap times, id say the GT3 wil take the nod for the 911 purist.
Have you felt electronic steering? No one has in the GT3 but the gap or driving feel might be limited to PDK and Torque VS RPM....

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
There are a large number of nuances that could make the PDK-S less desirable than the original 2 PDK's.

The FACT is that you have NO IDEA how people will like it compared to the other generations or if the differences will be enough to bother giving much attention to. Or if some of the modifications have added some bad characteristics along with the good. Yet you couldn't tell by reading the post.
What could the negative be? What would be an excuse for Porsche to dumb down the TT? They both go from full auto to manual depending on the setting right? Or do I have it wrong and the PDK-S does not creep, hold uphill, etc. in any setting?

Last edited by TRAKCAR; 05-20-2013 at 09:20 AM.
TRAKCAR is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Faster on track GT3 or TT?


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: