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Faster on track GT3 or TT?

 
Old 05-17-2013, 10:30 PM
  #61  
wanna911
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Its a "Turn of Phrase". You make Peter out like some hard core racer. In my part of the world we would say he has big hairy *****. Its a crude analogy to his disposition but also a complementary one if you are counting "man cards" (ill let you figure that one out).

What am I selling? Have you actually looked at my signature? Im guessing you own a 996.1 GT3 but obviously have not owned or driven a 964RS or a 993RS? I've owned all three.

I actually have ponied up for a 991 GT3 (unlike most contributing to the post) to give this new tech a try. I gave the game up shortly after Porsche started adding water to the equation. Im giving them a last chance. I dont disagree Porsche seem to be heading in the wrong direction from a Purists point of view. However I think the 991 GT3 may be the best slice of this future direction we are going to get before it all goes electric LOL!

I have no axe to grind as I dont have a 997.2 GT3 in the garage, I have a wonderfully heavily modified air cooled 6 speed in the garage which I run Track and Tarmac Rally and I like to think I have the reasoning to deliver a balanced point of view - up to the point that people start to wreck another thread with BS throw away comments or clearly biased points of view.....Im also bored this morning so this debate has given me something to do
Nope, I own a 996 Turbo, but the 996 GT3 is the best car Porsche has made all things considered IMO. The ONLY reason I didn't buy one is because of it's HP limitations. I won't settle for losing to Vette's and Vipers and GTR's (modded ones) because of a huge hp deficit. I have driven a 964 RS America but not in anger, a 964 Turbo on track and a 993 updated to RS specs. None of them compare to a 6 GT3. The cabin on the 964's feels ancient and cramped, the gearshift feels like a truck and the engine feels like it's not only in the back but 5 yards behind the car on a rope swinging around. The 993 is better, but doesn't even remotely compare to a 6 GT3. the only thing remotely comparable is the road feel. The 964's and 993's are classics, and look and feel like it. The 6 GT3 is refined modernized car and still the best drivers car Porsche has made IMO.

You can get out of a 997 GT3 and into a 6 GT3 and not feel like you went back in time 30 years. Get out of a 6 GT3 and into a 993? lol. Classics, but not for me.

The 991 GT3 is overkill and a buzz kill at the same time. I can see how little tight twisty tracks might be a pain to do a lot of shifting, but I'm about the challenge of driver. I got a Turbo because it could pack the hp necessary to beat the over hyped cars and there would be no confusing why it's going faster (because of the driver). That's the reason I participate in this hobby, as fun and comparison of driving skills. Take the need for skills away with lots of nannies. I have no interest. None.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:43 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Nope, I own a 996 Turbo, but the 996 GT3 is the best car Porsche has made all things considered IMO. The ONLY reason I didn't buy one is because of it's HP limitations. I won't settle for losing to Vette's and Vipers and GTR's (modded ones) because of a huge hp deficit. I have driven a 964 RS America but not in anger, a 964 Turbo on track and a 993 updated to RS specs. None of them compare to a 6 GT3. The cabin on the 964's feels ancient and cramped, the gearshift feels like a truck and the engine feels like it's not only in the back but 5 yards behind the car on a rope swinging around. The 993 is better, but doesn't even remotely compare to a 6 GT3. the only thing remotely comparable is the road feel. The 964's and 993's are classics, and look and feel like it. The 6 GT3 is refined modernized car and still the best drivers car Porsche has made IMO.

You can get out of a 997 GT3 and into a 6 GT3 and not feel like you went back in time 30 years. Get out of a 6 GT3 and into a 993? lol. Classics, but not for me.

The 991 GT3 is overkill and a buzz kill at the same time. I can see how little tight twisty tracks might be a pain to do a lot of shifting, but I'm about the challenge of driver. I got a Turbo because it could pack the hp necessary to beat the over hyped cars and there would be no confusing why it's going faster (because of the driver). That's the reason I participate in this hobby, as fun and comparison of driving skills. Take the need for skills away with lots of nannies. I have no interest. None.
Mmmm. While we are on IMO statements then Im afraid that IMO your arguments are as much supposition as based on any facts.

You've never owned a 996 GT3 because you might get beaten at the lights by a vette.
You've driven a 964Rs America (a widely recognised and arguably poor facsimile of the genuine ROW 964RS)
Youve driven a 993 clone 993 but it was old fashioned and its cockpit was funny.
What about a 350 bhp MFI 3.2 911 track beast or a 1973 RS or any one of a dozen "organic" non assistent (not even power steering) light weight porsche production cars we could point to that make modern machinery look like they have too many "nannies", to heavy, not enough feel, not enough emotion?

But yet you still make this comment?

Nonsense, 996 GT3 is analog and connected of a DRIVING EXPERIENCE as Porsche has ever made. If you are going to make some non-relevant argument about electric being something controlling the motor, then save it for someone who buys that garbage. The 996 GT3 might be the rawest driver/car interaction Porsche has ever produced. TC of any sort, manual, the only thing it has is ABS. How is that more electronic?

Honestly, Im sure you are a great guy and this is in no way personal. I dont want to make an enemy on this board but please lets try and keep speculative comment on this board based on some factual or experience basis because increasingly as we scratch the surface of these points of view we find them based on nothing but air....
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:54 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post

The 991 GT3 is overkill and a buzz kill at the same time. I can see how little tight twisty tracks might be a pain to do a lot of shifting, but I'm about the challenge of driver. I got a Turbo because it could pack the hp necessary to beat the over hyped cars and there would be no confusing why it's going faster (because of the driver). That's the reason I participate in this hobby, as fun and comparison of driving skills. Take the need for skills away with lots of nannies. I have no interest. None.
Wow. You got a big hp 911 to beat "over hyped" cars and so they wouldn't confuse your driving prowess for the RWHP you have? Mate, Downunder they call that "small ***** syndrome".

Is it just me or is this statement totally upside down?

Let me get this straight. You own a 4WD, electronics laden 996 with turbos and you consider this the ultimate challenge as a driver? You dont think this car has "nannies" compared to driving say a modified 993 6speed ball out on a track or 900km road rally?

Please dont tell me your 996T is tipo...

Hey. Im really sorry. Im pushing your buttons now! Just one thing. I wont be relying on your experience and knowledge of the 991 GT3 to affect my purchasing decision....
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:28 PM
  #64  
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Hey. Wanna911. I apologize. My last post was probably a bit harsh. Id like to blame it on the meds but I dont take any! Maybe i was having a grumpy morning here downunder...
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:43 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
- Porsche claimed that no Turbo lag on the 997.1. Fool me once........

- The GT3 time at Hockenheim was an estimate, not an actual time. And still it doesn't count until it's done third party like almost all of the rest of them.

- If the Turbo S did (Theoretical Best Lap Time as usual) 7:26 on regular street tires, then it's definitely potent. The GT-R, ZR1, Z07, GT2RS all had R comp level tires on.
Fastest Laps does not knowingly publish future lap time "estimates" unless supported by actual performance figures although some may challenge the veracity of some claims such as the "adjustment" by Nissan of their 7:19
Ring lap time down to 7:18 to compensate for "traffic" and match Porsche's
7:18 Ring Time for the GT2RS. I do not believe Porsche would publish any lap time unless they have already achieved that time using the same tires that customers will receive with their new cars.

All turbos have spool-up time. Accelerating those 4 large Exhaust and Intake Turbines from idle to over 25,000 RPM will never be instant. Porsche's unique
Variable Vane turbo technology is as fast if not faster than any competitor. That is why normally aspirated engines such as the GT3s will ALWAYS have faster throttle response than any Turbo model. And the higher the HP, the larger the Turbos with more inertia and increased lag time.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:59 PM
  #66  
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Love the 993 GT2 race car. That must have been some workout on track...big kudos.

If the fastestlaps.com site is any measure of accuracy as you say then we see the 991 TT coming in a 7.29 and the TTS at 7.26.

Now I know as fact the 991 GT3 has performed 7.26 - the question is what will Porsche publish? This is where the marketing game comes in I guess. They may choose to play mid field between the two. Something has to be left on the table for the RS. One thing is sure now they have the new chassis platform and the 4WS they are going to have their work cut out for them every second they can win between 7.15 and 7.25 seconds! It might not seem much but at this end of the stick the engineers will be pushing for everything they can get. Active aero could help (but the RS is rumored to use the wider body like the TT/S so will incur drag). Horsepower is one obvious answer but even with the TTS you can see it isnt so easy. Weight would be a benefit but youd need to loose 100kg to gain a second or more. Its certainly going to be an interesting future. Im wondering what the 918 will post but if its not sub 7.18 it will surely dissapoint...
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:00 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Mmmm. While we are on IMO statements then Im afraid that IMO your arguments are as much supposition as based on any facts.

You've never owned a 996 GT3 because you might get beaten at the lights by a vette.
You've driven a 964Rs America (a widely recognised and arguably poor facsimile of the genuine ROW 964RS)
Youve driven a 993 clone 993 but it was old fashioned and its cockpit was funny.
What about a 350 bhp MFI 3.2 911 track beast or a 1973 RS or any one of a dozen "organic" non assistent (not even power steering) light weight porsche production cars we could point to that make modern machinery look like they have too many "nannies", to heavy, not enough feel, not enough emotion?

But yet you still make this comment?

Nonsense, 996 GT3 is analog and connected of a DRIVING EXPERIENCE as Porsche has ever made. If you are going to make some non-relevant argument about electric being something controlling the motor, then save it for someone who buys that garbage. The 996 GT3 might be the rawest driver/car interaction Porsche has ever produced. TC of any sort, manual, the only thing it has is ABS. How is that more electronic?

Honestly, Im sure you are a great guy and this is in no way personal. I dont want to make an enemy on this board but please lets try and keep speculative comment on this board based on some factual or experience basis because increasingly as we scratch the surface of these points of view we find them based on nothing but air....
IMO ....... Do I need to spell that outfor you? It proceeded every comment I made of that nature. It's based on my personal experience and you can argue all you want for the antiques but I'm not interested.

You can make all the excuses you want for the cars I drove, but the fact remains that the 6 GT3 is a vastly superior car, yet still retained it's analog roots.



Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Wow. You got a big hp 911 to beat "over hyped" cars and so they wouldn't confuse your driving prowess for the RWHP you have? Mate, Downunder they call that "small ***** syndrome".

Is it just me or is this statement totally upside down?

Let me get this straight. You own a 4WD, electronics laden 996 with turbos and you consider this the ultimate challenge as a driver? You dont think this car has "nannies" compared to driving say a modified 993 6speed ball out on a track or 900km road rally?

Please dont tell me your 996T is tipo...

Hey. Im really sorry. Im pushing your buttons now! Just one thing. I wont be relying on your experience and knowledge of the 991 GT3 to affect my purchasing decision....
You need credentials to push my buttons.

There are no rinky dink slalom courses over here. The cars here run Cup Car times (the professional driven cup cars) and faster on professional level tracks. You aren't getting close to that in a 996 GT3, not even a 6cup.

So before you mouth off, this is not the same thing as beating your friends at the local Porsche get together in your classic. 500-650 whp NA shop car corvette's with 500 CI motors, tens of thousands in DF, CF everywhere, wind tunnel testing and special fuel cells (250-300k cars to build) and world challenge drivers or 800 whp shop GT-R's with tunnel tested aero, built, CF widebody's etc driven by pro drivers are fairly common around here.

Not only that, we have the best of the best driving here, supercup drivers, faulkner, edwards, tandy, champions keen, davis, pumpelly, lally. Currently I'm just over 2 seconds shy of the fastest ALMS GTC lap ever and 3 seconds off the narrow body RSR cups from grand am (patrick long driving). If those names don't ring a bell, don't bother responding. And that on 15 HC DOT A6 tires with a stick shift and well over 3200 lbs weight. I'm about to set the car up for slicks. My car has a tune, exhaust, cheap coilovers, control arms, weight reduction and mostly homemade aero. No PSM, no AWD.

When you can do something comparable, let me know........ Until then.


I got the Turbo because I wanted a reliable car that was fast and different from the norm. A rear engine Turbo car is not exactly the norm for setting lap records, at least not here.
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:09 AM
  #68  
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You are my star.

Ive moved on. You should too before you put your foot further into your mouth...

P.S. Use your iphone to google New Zealand Motor Racing Greats. You might just be a tiny weeny bit surprised what talent down here has made it into the top all time driver greats including a couple that won your CANAM for many years in a row and became US household names....(Bruce McLaren and Denny Hulme in case you are too young to know). Ever looked at the Mclaren logo? Do you see a Kiwi cause that's what it is...
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:17 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by FastLaneTurbo View Post
Fastest Laps does not knowingly publish future lap time "estimates" unless supported by actual performance figures although some may challenge the veracity of some claims such as the "adjustment" by Nissan of their 7:19
Ring lap time down to 7:18 to compensate for "traffic" and match Porsche's
7:18 Ring Time for the GT2RS. I do not believe Porsche would publish any lap time unless they have already achieved that time using the same tires that customers will receive with their new cars.

All turbos have spool-up time. Accelerating those 4 large Exhaust and Intake Turbines from idle to over 25,000 RPM will never be instant. Porsche's unique
Variable Vane turbo technology is as fast if not faster than any competitor. That is why normally aspirated engines such as the GT3s will ALWAYS have faster throttle response than any Turbo model. And the higher the HP, the larger the Turbos with more inertia and increased lag time.
VTG's are laggy, and no they are not the fastest spooling thing out there in reality. All of the theories have not proven to be true, there are plenty of turbos out performing and out spooling VTG's. Once again Porsche making claims that have not been substantiated.


Fastest Laps is still not a timing organization, no do they provide or require any verification of lap times. A lot of people mistook the Article with the estimated time of 1:08 to mean they actually ran that time, but from the article it's clear that was an estimate. Like I said though, even if Kluck ran a 1:08 it's still not a straight up comparison to sport auto doing it 3rd party like all of the other times on the list.

I agree with the sentiment regarding Nissan and their adjusted time. You can't claim a time that you haven't run. But at the same time Porsche has only validated with proof one lap time. Whether or not we think the car can do it is irrelevant, TBL's don't count in any form of competition and there is absolutely no way all of Porsche's fastest hot lap times have a .00 next to them. So they are only claims, not realities.
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:23 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
You are my star.

Ive moved on. You should too before you put your foot further into your mouth...

P.S. Use your iphone to google New Zealand Motor Racing Greats. You might just be a tiny weeny bit surprised what talent down here has made it into the top all time driver greats including a couple that won your CANAM for many years in a row and became US household names....(Bruce McLaren and Denny Hulme in case you are too young to know). Ever looked at the Mclaren logo? Do you see a Kiwi cause that's what it is...
What are you talking about, the drivers I listed are not all Americans.....




I'm talking about drivers that have competed on the same track and set lap times to be used as a relative benchmark. Comprehension please.

P.S. Iphone sucks.
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:32 AM
  #71  
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IMO whatever point you were making was lost on me many posts ago....
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:36 AM
  #72  
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So I see.......
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:06 AM
  #73  
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As powerful as the 991 Turbo will be, the 991 GT3 will rev to 9000 rpm.

Can you imagine how nice it will be to continue past 8000rpm and squeek out close to 9000rpm before a flick of the paddle when on straights with 997 GT3s?!

The high revs and "cup car"quick shifts will be the allure of the new 991 GT3.

With a Sharkwerks bi-pass, it will have a different market then the 991 Turbo market. It should sound pretty sweet.

Im not in line for one because i am a RS snob.
Will wait to see what the new RS brings to the table, otherwise im moving on to a trailerable race car and leaving cars with warranty on the street. Especially expensive ones.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:19 AM
  #74  
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A report from someone that's seen it testing at the Ring indicates it sounds epic in the first instance. His clients include Roock Racing so hes heard a few 911s driven in anger.

Hopefully people like Sharkwerks will have a cat delete pipe ready by the time the first cars are delivered!
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Old 05-18-2013, 01:40 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Love the 993 GT2 race car. That must have been some workout on track...big kudos.

If the fastestlaps.com site is any measure of accuracy as you say then we see the 991 TT coming in a 7.29 and the TTS at 7.26.

Now I know as fact the 991 GT3 has performed 7.26 - the question is what will Porsche publish? This is where the marketing game comes in I guess..
Actually my 1995 993 GT2 Race Car was a ***** cat on the track after the Aero
junk they put on it at Weissach was improved with a far larger more effective
Wing in the rear and a 4 inch front splitter which tamed the push. It took first place in most of my 52 races between 1995 through 2005 when the later models were finally dialed in and became reliable.

I agree with your comments about the Nurburgring published laptimes being massaged by marketing and engineering often with opposing and political views. More accurate and truthful is to note the laptimes from 20 different tracks and observe the times being run by other independent reviewers for magazines, and skilled drivers who are not employed by the manufacturers. Generally, up to now, I have found Porsche's own laptimes, power and speed claims to be representative and reproducible.
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