Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums - Faster on track GT3 or TT?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by F1CrazyDriver (Post 10503919)

LOL! funny.

I think people need to wake up and realize that a 911 is not what it use to be. A Sports car. It has now turned into a Luxury Sports car.

Before, it was a sports car, and just sports car. Awesome at being a sports car.
The NEW 911's are a luxury car first, AND THEN a sports car.

Times change. People whom can afford these cars are getting older. Most older people, don't have the reflex of being young anymore, but have the pockets to buy these cars. Target your market, Porsche did that.

Older people need more assistance in driving a car fast. The left leg and the right arm are not working in correlation together the way it did when they were in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's....

Some older people are freaks and faster as they get older. I know because I have seen it. A late 60 year old with a 996 gt3 track prep 2600 going balls to the wall giving me a hard time! ( he has a vast collection of semi-automatic cars too.. that he told me those are only used for dates with the wife, as thats what they are only good at-- his words not mine)

So not all old people, with money need assistance! But people whom need the assistance out weight the ones that don',t that can afford these cars.

Some people own these cars and want analog because of the joy it brings. Some don't care.

But most importantly, most of the people whom are dropping 150k on a car want luxury. They want something their 150k car has, that the Jones 50k car does not have. Look at this texture feel of my leather. One can make the assessment that the 911 has matured from being a wild teenage VW with the engine in the wrong place and whipping the tail end happy, to a more civilized luxury car.

Sad but I agree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10504123)

Says the guy who, if his avatar is any indication, drives an AWD turbo GT with power brakes, steering, windows, seats, stability control, stereo, and no doubt a host of other conveniences? No offense intended, it's a beautiful car, but not a luxury sports car?

This is a 50 year old argument. There are plenty of purists who believe the last true non-GT Porsche "sports car" was the 356.

You have to put me in this boat as well. Though awd and psm are not even remotely the same as todays 911. I don't have cup holders or power seats and it isn't a track car but it has everything I need to get to and from the track, with a change of tires. Throw on winter tires and it's driven to work everyday. I change wheels/tires compounds so often I could never go with anything but 5 lug.
There is a point when big is too big, heavy is too heavy, wide becomes too wide and luxury is too luxurious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayDBonz (Post 10504267)

I did. I sold it. Kept the Cayman R.

For me, the 991 C2S was more luxury than sport. It reminded my of my Mercedes more than anything. The Cayman R is more fun to drive.

IMHO, YMMV and all that.

I've driven it as well and think your Mercedes comparison is spot on. The 991 was a huge step back from the 997.2 as a sports car on the autobahn and eerily similar to the Mercedes experience. I went from being involved in the driving to simply being a passenger.

Is it really any surprise why they're already being discounted so heavily and 2012 models still sit on dealer lots across the country?

I would add to the notion that the buyers are getting older that the buyers are getting more "Asian" as well -- individuals who seemingly want every electronic gizmo in their cars...

As the US market becomes less important to Porsche -- so will making cars for enthusiasts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manifold (Post 10504286)

I've done many track days in the Cayman R (instructor with PCA et al) and understand where you're coming from. But did you track your 991 C2S? I'd agree that it's less 'raw' than the CR, but IMO the performance of the 991 is undeniable.

Friday was media day for the Porsche World Roadshow at Mosport. We had the pleasure of driving the complete current lineup on the big track almost back to back. My personal favourite was the Cayman S, until I drove the 991 C2S. If that is an indication or a glimpse into the capability of the 991 GT3, then it will be a Homerun, IMHO.

:cheers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurboS (Post 10510466)

And worth remembering that lap times of the lowly 991 C2S are about the same as the 997.2 GT3. Check this out:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manifold (Post 10510578)

And worth remembering that lap times of the lowly 991 C2S are about the same as the 997.2 GT3. Check this out:
7:37,9 - Hot Lap with the new Porsche 911 Carrera S - YouTube

Gets better. 991S on street tires, 997.2 GT3 on race tires (MPSC). 991S on MPSC would have dropped at least 5 secs, matching the 997.2 GT3 RS lap.

With Aero, another 75Hp, a little wider tires, the theoretical 7:32 would drop even more (991 Wannabe-GT3).

Add two turbos and AWD, and it will go even faster.

Add a Nissan badge, and it will be the fastest.

...but a Cayman feels more fun and better at moving chicane speeds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manifold (Post 10510578)

And worth remembering that lap times of the lowly 991 C2S are about the same as the 997.2 GT3.

If lap times were the only indication of a great car, we'd all have Radicals. . .

Now that I think of it, that's not a bad idea!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayDBonz (Post 10510709)

If lap times were the only indication of a great car, we'd all have Radicals. . .

Now that I think of it, that's not a bad idea!

My point is about the comparison of the 997 vs 991 platform, not lap time itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayDBonz (Post 10510709)

If lap times were the only indication of a great car, we'd all have Radicals. . .

Now that I think of it, that's not a bad idea!

You should get one along with a 991 GT3 :D

Which is faster, TT or GT3? No way to know on the 991 but the 997 was a dead heat - too close to call!
Of 13 lap times published on fastestlaps.com with late model 997-2s, the TT/TTS was faster on 5 Tracks
and the GT3 / GT3RS was faster on 8 Tracks. Differences were usually under One second.
The Turbo was faster on the Nurburgring 7:40 vs 7:32, Tsukuba 1:04.84 vs 1:03.45,
Top Gear 1:23.10 vs 1:22.2, Vairano 1:18.54 vs 1:16.97, and Oschersleben 1:43.5 vs 1:42.74 and
Laguna Seca 1:39.52 vs 1:37.8

The GT3 / GT3RS was faster than the TT / TTS at AutoZeitung 1:35.8 vs 1:36.9, Hockenheim 1:10.4 vs
1:10.9, Balocco 2:45.97 vs 2.49.4, Sachsenring 1:36.11 vs 1:36.86, VIR 2:55.9 vs 2:57.5, Bedford 1:23.3 vs 1:23.3, Willow Springs 1:33.14 vs 1:33.31

IF (and it is a big if) the 1:08 Time posted for the 991 GT3 at Hockenheim is accurate, my best GUESS (!) is that the GT3 Nurburgring time (which remains mysteriously missing) MAY be faster than the TT/S
posted time of 7:26. I attribute the delay of posting the GT3's Ring Time, which must be known by now to Porsche, to its being either too slow or too fast compared with the more expensive TT and TTs.
Having a GT3 on order, I'm hoping the GT3 was "too fast". Both models are a big step forward.
Hopefully, we'll see the facts soon and will have independent reviews of both cars to support them.

TT should points for never being on R-comps. That is for sure to have an affect on some of the results.

I think for sure that the TTS will be faster than the GT3 until the RS comes out.

Requiem for the 911 as a sports car

Quote:

Originally Posted by destaccado (Post 10504359)

Sadly agree. I wanted the 911 to remain the definitive sports car forever but removing the hand brake in the newer models means that battle is already lost in my eyes. We only really had 5 points of control (4 in autos) to start with and Porsche just chopped one out.

IMHO, of the more recent technologies:

Thumbs up: variable vane turbos, variable valve timing and lift, 4 wheel steering, overboost, active aero, PSM defeat

Thumbs down: variable ratio steering, e-steering, hand brake deletion, economy biased engine mapping.

But give me the hand brake back and I'd forgive a lot.