When will 991 GT3 be tested?
04-16-2013, 01:38 PM
#16
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I believe the new GT3 will have its world wide press release in early September in Europe. This will be a 2-3 day affair. You will start to see independent reviews after that date. Customer cars will not be delivered before that date. I expect that magazines such as EVO and some of the European titles will "acquire" cars to do their own testing shortly after the press release. They will probably use factory demonstrators in the first instance but there will be a que. Most journalists like to try and arrange thos for shortly after the launch event and some even take cars to Europe and secretly garage them to compare the test car against on a quiet piece of road or at the track! I would say youll find teh first non press release reviews start to flow by late September early October.
The Ring time is already considerably below 7.30 as unofficially reported by Ring side observers. The 4WS system seems to be a a large contributing factor here. A recent post mentioned a Christophorus or similar article that quotes a Porsche engineer stating that the 4WS was the equivalent of 70 bhp or 100kg when comparing like to like ring times. Its great to see Porsche as the innovator again even if its already a past used technology.
My understanding is that Porsche are yet to announce a Ring time because they have to settle on a figure. Sub 7.30s were set during development when the car wasnt even on the final production rubber. I believe they have a bit of a "marketing challenge" on their hands. If they publish this time at its aggressive best then they leave themselves a smaller window for the RS version remembering that the bulk of the benefits are already present in the standard GT3s new chassis, engine and 4WS. In order to beat a published time of say 7.27 (assume this wasnt the quickest time they posted but a mean average of test drivers) for the stock GT3 then they would need a 50 bhp benefit with more agressive rubber and different suspension settings with maybe 40kg weight reduction to achieve a 3-4 second advantage for the RS. They would also have to post an "aggressive" RS track time to achieve this. Given its unlikley the RS version will benefit from ALL of the above benefits the problem becomes compounded.
Its a bit of a delimma and I suspect the reason Porsche are still quiet is they are trying to understand the RS potential on the Ring (winter has just ended so testing resumes now) and furthermore they are buying time for recent 4.0 RS customers to still enjoy the accolade of the fastest and best GT.
On a recent thread on this board someone posted a test driver running a 7.42 in a 4.0 RS around the Ring (no traffic). I watched that video twice and the guy was working every inch of the track and pushing that car very hard. It had me wondering just what an achievement it is to knock 14-15 seconds off such a time. I have no doubt the PDK makes up for at least 4-6 seconds of this, the chassis would be similar and I guess the 4WS is good for 3-4 seconds. When you watch that drive you realise quickly how academic this whole subject is. There would be a handful of people in the world that could run a 7.26 in the new GT3 and I aint one of them! Add 60 seconds and I still aint one of them!
The Ring time is already considerably below 7.30 as unofficially reported by Ring side observers. The 4WS system seems to be a a large contributing factor here. A recent post mentioned a Christophorus or similar article that quotes a Porsche engineer stating that the 4WS was the equivalent of 70 bhp or 100kg when comparing like to like ring times. Its great to see Porsche as the innovator again even if its already a past used technology.
My understanding is that Porsche are yet to announce a Ring time because they have to settle on a figure. Sub 7.30s were set during development when the car wasnt even on the final production rubber. I believe they have a bit of a "marketing challenge" on their hands. If they publish this time at its aggressive best then they leave themselves a smaller window for the RS version remembering that the bulk of the benefits are already present in the standard GT3s new chassis, engine and 4WS. In order to beat a published time of say 7.27 (assume this wasnt the quickest time they posted but a mean average of test drivers) for the stock GT3 then they would need a 50 bhp benefit with more agressive rubber and different suspension settings with maybe 40kg weight reduction to achieve a 3-4 second advantage for the RS. They would also have to post an "aggressive" RS track time to achieve this. Given its unlikley the RS version will benefit from ALL of the above benefits the problem becomes compounded.
Its a bit of a delimma and I suspect the reason Porsche are still quiet is they are trying to understand the RS potential on the Ring (winter has just ended so testing resumes now) and furthermore they are buying time for recent 4.0 RS customers to still enjoy the accolade of the fastest and best GT.
On a recent thread on this board someone posted a test driver running a 7.42 in a 4.0 RS around the Ring (no traffic). I watched that video twice and the guy was working every inch of the track and pushing that car very hard. It had me wondering just what an achievement it is to knock 14-15 seconds off such a time. I have no doubt the PDK makes up for at least 4-6 seconds of this, the chassis would be similar and I guess the 4WS is good for 3-4 seconds. When you watch that drive you realise quickly how academic this whole subject is. There would be a handful of people in the world that could run a 7.26 in the new GT3 and I aint one of them! Add 60 seconds and I still aint one of them!
On paper the numbers are:
Ferrari 458
1,485 kg
562 hp
140 kg downforce at 200 km/h - although I've heard skepticism about this
Ring time - 7:33
McLaren 12C
1,399 kg
616 hp
Active aero - downforce?
Ring time - 7:28
991 GT3
1,430 kg
475 hp
Downforce?
04-16-2013, 05:10 PM
#17
Race Director
In Christophorus I read that the driver there can consistently get under than number. Here is an excerpt. Even if this is on Dot R rubber same as 991 GT3 that's now less than 8 seconds above 7.30. If we consider the additional horsepower, the advanced suspension settings, the 4WS, the modified pdk, the different gearing and the 9000 rpm why isn't 8 seconds possible?
04-16-2013, 05:58 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Dan39. When "considerable" is mentioned at these rarefied levels remember we are talking maybe 1-4 seconds. At this level of the game as seen by the 458 & M 12C times posted this is "considerable".
Remember the Ring is an academic discussion as the Ferrari & McLaren may be faster than all the others in real world situations.
I think everyone is missing the "elephant in the room" when talking about the 991 GT3 potential time.
Nissan GTR 2013 Spec
545 HP
1740 Kg (wow - fat boy?)
Aero = ??? (blood average if you ask me looks like a brick)
Ring time (official = 7.24s but apparently Nissan have a new time being verified = 7.192!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_GT-R
When you compare the GTR to every other supercar on the planet the time has never made sense. If youve seen one of these cars even less so as it isnt light and doesnt look svelt.
The fact is Nissan have been using passive RWS (and its not as aggressive as active but these days not far off), a dual clutch transmission and 4WD.
The sum is more than the parts and this is exactly what Ive heard about the 991 GT3. The only antidote I can share (on this forum) is that the early test drivers were simply astounded with the first 4WS car they tested. In the first three laps the best time was "considerably" less than 7.30 and they hadn't signed off the settings back late last year when this happened. AP was apparently very much against the 4WS. Then he took a lap with it and realized here was a whole new dimension of performance available.
I understand there are a tonne of people here who are disappointing with the new 991 GT3 & RS on paper. Its not traditionalist etc. I think what we need to remember is no one has driven it yet and its too early to make conclusions.
However I strongly believe this car will be a real eye opener when the testers do get to have a spin and will hopefully herald a return to Porsche becoming the "innovative" sports car maker we once knew it as. When I was a kid Porsche had many "firsts". Granted much of the technology they did not invent (like 4WS) but they embedded into a production car for the first time for the benefit of the breed & Marque. Things like turbos (930), ABS, Tiptronic (964), active aero (964), 6 speed manual (993) etc etc
For years now with the 996 7 997 we havent seen the same innovation we did from Porsche in the 70s,80s,90s IMHO. Porsche have been playing catch up with transmission tech, they have had a bit of a poor run with early water cooled engines, and quite honestly there was little in the way of light weight composite tech development and weight reduction tech. Even DFI was late to the party relativeely speaking.
Now we have the 991 platform which is a huge leap in tech for Porsche with much more in the way of mixed materials for weight reduction and rigidity as well as wheel base adjustments. The 991 GT3 builds on this and introduces again some new firsts (for Porsche) such as 4WS, a pretty much new engine with a new valvetrain, full LED headlights, and advanced PDK which I believe is "best of breed" now, improved CL wheels and lighter wheel tech etc.
As I say I think the naysayers are acting way to strongly and too fast with the 991 GT3. Not only has no one driven and reported on it but they have missed a fundamental point. Porsche are becoming innovative again and regaining the mantle as market leaders for value (much helped by VW and their resources no doubt). Long may it continue as it heralds an exciting new path for the company even if it means some of the purists will have to be content with their "older" cars...
Remember the Ring is an academic discussion as the Ferrari & McLaren may be faster than all the others in real world situations.
I think everyone is missing the "elephant in the room" when talking about the 991 GT3 potential time.
Nissan GTR 2013 Spec
545 HP
1740 Kg (wow - fat boy?)
Aero = ??? (blood average if you ask me looks like a brick)
Ring time (official = 7.24s but apparently Nissan have a new time being verified = 7.192!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_GT-R
When you compare the GTR to every other supercar on the planet the time has never made sense. If youve seen one of these cars even less so as it isnt light and doesnt look svelt.
The fact is Nissan have been using passive RWS (and its not as aggressive as active but these days not far off), a dual clutch transmission and 4WD.
The sum is more than the parts and this is exactly what Ive heard about the 991 GT3. The only antidote I can share (on this forum) is that the early test drivers were simply astounded with the first 4WS car they tested. In the first three laps the best time was "considerably" less than 7.30 and they hadn't signed off the settings back late last year when this happened. AP was apparently very much against the 4WS. Then he took a lap with it and realized here was a whole new dimension of performance available.
I understand there are a tonne of people here who are disappointing with the new 991 GT3 & RS on paper. Its not traditionalist etc. I think what we need to remember is no one has driven it yet and its too early to make conclusions.
However I strongly believe this car will be a real eye opener when the testers do get to have a spin and will hopefully herald a return to Porsche becoming the "innovative" sports car maker we once knew it as. When I was a kid Porsche had many "firsts". Granted much of the technology they did not invent (like 4WS) but they embedded into a production car for the first time for the benefit of the breed & Marque. Things like turbos (930), ABS, Tiptronic (964), active aero (964), 6 speed manual (993) etc etc
For years now with the 996 7 997 we havent seen the same innovation we did from Porsche in the 70s,80s,90s IMHO. Porsche have been playing catch up with transmission tech, they have had a bit of a poor run with early water cooled engines, and quite honestly there was little in the way of light weight composite tech development and weight reduction tech. Even DFI was late to the party relativeely speaking.
Now we have the 991 platform which is a huge leap in tech for Porsche with much more in the way of mixed materials for weight reduction and rigidity as well as wheel base adjustments. The 991 GT3 builds on this and introduces again some new firsts (for Porsche) such as 4WS, a pretty much new engine with a new valvetrain, full LED headlights, and advanced PDK which I believe is "best of breed" now, improved CL wheels and lighter wheel tech etc.
As I say I think the naysayers are acting way to strongly and too fast with the 991 GT3. Not only has no one driven and reported on it but they have missed a fundamental point. Porsche are becoming innovative again and regaining the mantle as market leaders for value (much helped by VW and their resources no doubt). Long may it continue as it heralds an exciting new path for the company even if it means some of the purists will have to be content with their "older" cars...
Did I kill this thread or wot?
04-19-2013, 01:02 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I cant wait for the GT3 VS C7-Z51 comparo.
Both dry sump
Both 3200lbs
Both have ventilated seats, but the Corvette allows for 6 point seat belts
Both same HP, but Corvette has over 100lb of torue more
Both giant brakes
Both come with Alcantara interiors
Advantage C7: faster, Rev matching manual, more power, sports seats, more interior color options, 5 year 100K drive train warranty.
Half the price, so you can spec one luxury oriented for daily and one track ***** for the weekends, but both will be trackable and streetable. 5 year 100K drive train warranty. Maybe a white one and a black one?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6VL...it?usp=sharing
Advantage GT3: One year more warranty bumper to bumper, better dealership experience?
Both dry sump
Both 3200lbs
Both have ventilated seats, but the Corvette allows for 6 point seat belts
Both same HP, but Corvette has over 100lb of torue more
Both giant brakes
Both come with Alcantara interiors
Advantage C7: faster, Rev matching manual, more power, sports seats, more interior color options, 5 year 100K drive train warranty.
Half the price, so you can spec one luxury oriented for daily and one track ***** for the weekends, but both will be trackable and streetable. 5 year 100K drive train warranty. Maybe a white one and a black one?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6VL...it?usp=sharing
Advantage GT3: One year more warranty bumper to bumper, better dealership experience?
04-19-2013, 01:08 PM
#22
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It's a shame that GM was in such financial trouble during the C7 design, since they were planning on making the C7 rear mid-engine until the crackdown on cash.
04-19-2013, 01:35 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
I cant wait for the GT3 VS C7-Z51 comparo.
Both dry sump
Both 3200lbs
Both have ventilated seats, but the Corvette allows for 6 point seat belts
Both same HP, but Corvette has over 100lb of torue more
Both giant brakes
Both come with Alcantara interiors
Advantage C7: faster, Rev matching manual, more power, sports seats, more interior color options, 5 year 100K drive train warranty.
Half the price, so you can spec one luxury oriented for daily and one track ***** for the weekends, but both will be trackable and streetable. 5 year 100K drive train warranty. Maybe a white one and a black one?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6VL...it?usp=sharing
Advantage GT3: One year more warranty bumper to bumper, better dealership experience?
Both dry sump
Both 3200lbs
Both have ventilated seats, but the Corvette allows for 6 point seat belts
Both same HP, but Corvette has over 100lb of torue more
Both giant brakes
Both come with Alcantara interiors
Advantage C7: faster, Rev matching manual, more power, sports seats, more interior color options, 5 year 100K drive train warranty.
Half the price, so you can spec one luxury oriented for daily and one track ***** for the weekends, but both will be trackable and streetable. 5 year 100K drive train warranty. Maybe a white one and a black one?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6VL...it?usp=sharing
Advantage GT3: One year more warranty bumper to bumper, better dealership experience?
04-19-2013, 02:25 PM
#26
Racer
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I cant wait for the GT3 VS C7-Z51 comparo.
Both dry sump
Both 3200lbs
Both have ventilated seats, but the Corvette allows for 6 point seat belts
Both same HP, but Corvette has over 100lb of torue more
Both giant brakes
Both come with Alcantara interiors
Advantage C7: faster, Rev matching manual, more power, sports seats, more interior color options, 5 year 100K drive train warranty.
Half the price, so you can spec one luxury oriented for daily and one track ***** for the weekends, but both will be trackable and streetable. 5 year 100K drive train warranty. Maybe a white one and a black one?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6VL...it?usp=sharing
Advantage GT3: One year more warranty bumper to bumper, better dealership experience?
Both dry sump
Both 3200lbs
Both have ventilated seats, but the Corvette allows for 6 point seat belts
Both same HP, but Corvette has over 100lb of torue more
Both giant brakes
Both come with Alcantara interiors
Advantage C7: faster, Rev matching manual, more power, sports seats, more interior color options, 5 year 100K drive train warranty.
Half the price, so you can spec one luxury oriented for daily and one track ***** for the weekends, but both will be trackable and streetable. 5 year 100K drive train warranty. Maybe a white one and a black one?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6VL...it?usp=sharing
Advantage GT3: One year more warranty bumper to bumper, better dealership experience?
04-19-2013, 02:49 PM
#29
Race Director
I cant wait for the GT3 VS C7-Z51 comparo.
Both dry sump
Both 3200lbs
Both have ventilated seats, but the Corvette allows for 6 point seat belts
Both same HP, but Corvette has over 100lb of torue more
Both giant brakes
Both come with Alcantara interiors
Advantage C7: faster, Rev matching manual, more power, sports seats, more interior color options, 5 year 100K drive train warranty.
Half the price, so you can spec one luxury oriented for daily and one track ***** for the weekends, but both will be trackable and streetable. 5 year 100K drive train warranty. Maybe a white one and a black one?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6VL...it?usp=sharing
Advantage GT3: One year more warranty bumper to bumper, better dealership experience?
Both dry sump
Both 3200lbs
Both have ventilated seats, but the Corvette allows for 6 point seat belts
Both same HP, but Corvette has over 100lb of torue more
Both giant brakes
Both come with Alcantara interiors
Advantage C7: faster, Rev matching manual, more power, sports seats, more interior color options, 5 year 100K drive train warranty.
Half the price, so you can spec one luxury oriented for daily and one track ***** for the weekends, but both will be trackable and streetable. 5 year 100K drive train warranty. Maybe a white one and a black one?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6VL...it?usp=sharing
Advantage GT3: One year more warranty bumper to bumper, better dealership experience?
I'm not into the C7's batmobile styling, but TEHO.
Faster will have to be proven.
Interior color options....really?
Rev matching manual....yawn.
No ventilated seats available on the GT3. Score one for the C7!
The performance comparison will be interesting.