frayed

I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Emotional response 1: the hard core GT3/RS fans want speed and simplicity. So, any added complexity will be attacked as the work of the devil and will assume that it represents just another failure point. Many of these guys are the ones who essentially convert their street car to a pure track car with all heim joints, solid bushings, cage, buckets, alignment, cup car suspension bits, lap timers, and multiple go pros. But in a way it's all misguided b/c none of them actually race their cars nor make any money doing DE's.

Emotional response 2: some current GT3/RS owners are not in a position to drop 140k on new metal and will complain about any development that is not a natural extension of their current rig.

Logical: it's unproven from a durability standpoint. Just like with PAGs (i) first implementation of ceramics. . . they sucked ***** and owners who went for them soon became outraged at their lack of durability and cost, and (ii) centerlocks. If there's a manufacturer who can get RWS right I think it's Porsche, but just like with the ceramics and centerlocks, Porsche's initial attempt with these technologies turned customers into beta testers, many of whom paid quite a price. Not a good thing.

Let's hope the computer doesn't screw up and turn the rear wheels out of phase at a buck-ten on that left hand sweeper. Yikes.

Dan39

This is a constant theme in this forum from what I've seen and it's just ridiculous IMO. If you want a race car, get a bloody race car! I used to drive an open wheel Formula SCCA car and it would smash any 911 at a fraction of the cost.

A GT3 is a road car that is designed to allow you to take it to the track 0-10 times per year for a light workout of 3-5 x 10-15 laps and that's it. And that's as much/more durability than you'll get from McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Corvette, etc, so quit complaining!

wanna911

No one wants the hassle of finding events where you can take open wheel cars. No one drives them just for fun, it's hard to find someone local to work on them as there aren't many of them, it's borderline stupid to take them to the local DE with GT cars and possible car to car contact, you can't drive on the weekend and during the week to work or cruising in the mountains. And more importantly people like GT's and have since racing began. Everyone isn't into racing/driving open wheel cars. It's called choice.

10 times a year for a couple of years is plenty enough to feel how sloppy the car is and becomes as the rubber wears over time. All of the mods can be removed at any time. It's just like any other hobby, hardly anyone is going to keep their car stock when small improvements make a big difference.

Carrera GT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...s-ulE6LY#t=72s

Maybe you haven't seen the kids that can use a mental abacus to calculate faster than a person can work with a computer or a calculator.

A slide rule is hydraulic steering and the Casio is rear-steer? I guess that's about right. At least the Casio part.

But the reality is a person can do a lot more with their mind and the senses than they can punch into a keyboard. A team of programmers cannot create a virtual reality that is real to the touch.

The digital vs. analog battle clearly gives the victory to the machine, but only in the analog world is the fight worth winning.

Riz

FWIW BMW is now racing the Z4 instead of the M3. Porsche can try using the mid-engine platform in the Cayman with GT3 RSR engine/parts.

Mike in CA

Max wasn't referring to hydraulic steering and rear wheel steering, he was referring to passive rear wheel steering versus active rear wheel steering. I don't know about the relevance of his props to represent the two, but what I got from his excellent post was that passive rear wheel steering, which every 911 has had since the inclusion of the Weissach multi link suspension in the 993, and active rear wheel steering like that in the 991 GT3, are both programmed by engineers to respond to input in certain ways. The main difference is that the programming for active steering can be carried out much more quickly and precisely over a wider range of variables.

There's nothing inherently more noble or rewarding about the flexing of bushings, joints, and links as opposed to the operation of an electric motor. Assuming equal reliability, if the car goes where you point it, with higher levels of performance and proper response and feedback, why wouldn't you want the quicker and more precise system?

FWIW, for anyone who gets Christophorus, there is an interesting article in the Feb-Mar 2013 issue on the design of the Porsche Weissach axle, and how it came to be used in the 911.

BGB Motorsports

Alright...

I have some hours invested in the project thus far and here is what it looks like. Starting with a base 981 Cayman, you have a vehicle equipped with DFI and the new Siemens SDI 9 ECU software. Therefore, we can start with the base. I found a car at about $62K with power seats, infotainment package, etc but let's assume we're at $65K for a donor. I then added 991 6-piston front calipers, 991 uprights and Cayman S 4-piston rear calipers. Actually, I would probably suggest 996 turbo rear calipers because they offer the larger brake pad with the small brake pistons. Finally, Suncoast was going to add alcantara for the wheel, shift boot and e-brake.

The car needs bucket seats and an aero kit. Prior to this I was at $90K on the sum of all of the parts.

In comparing the 991 power kit engine at 430/325 and the 475 of the GT3, i think the all of that sauce is in the higher compression engine that you can spin to 9K because it has the the higher-revving more sophisticated valvetrain controlling all those lightweight titanium bits that aren't present in the new 9A1 DFI motors in the base cars. If slapping DFI technology on a 2008 Cayman S or a 2008 911 increased power by 10%, given that the 991 Power Kit engine makes 430, it's pretty in-line with wear the additional 45hp comes from. It's in the RPM and being able to use it.

How much HP does a 991 GT3 make over your last 3.8 997.2 car? If your old 3.8 was at 450hp and you add DFI, then there's your bump. Caymans went from 296 to 320 and 911s went from 325 to 350 because of the DFI, what you can do to it and how much compression you can use on a street motor.

I'm ready Peter! I don't think you need sport buckets, as the sport seats are nice as they are BUT, even though there's more room in the car, you need to go and sit in one first to make sure you can fit comfortably. What I have learned is that I can't make any more street-legal race cars out of Caymans because there's no room in them for driver AND cage. This 981 baby Supercar i want to make has nothing but brakes, suede, an engine and aero being added.

TRAKCAR

John, sounds very cool and you're the one who can build the BGB Cayman Daytona Edition!

But no roll bar? I could absolutely not get in the previous Cayman, I could not even get my knees under the dash to close the door let alone drive it. Maybe a Roll bar and Racy Recaro's?

KBS911

[QUOTE=mdrums;10383061]The new Corvette will be one of THE few modern day streetable track cars to have.[/QUOTE

Sadly I think you may be right. Porsche is going in the direction of the older Corvettes, boulevard ease and style while the Vettes seems to be going in the direction of the older 911s, street cars that are at home on the track. Even the new Z28 that all but encourages it's owners to flail it at the track. This is just wrong....

mdrums

[quote=KBS911;10393988]I know I hate it too..but the Vette seems to be trying to attract the younger track day with money crowd. At least that is the feeling I am getting. I'm not young, I'm 47 but I like what Vette and Z28 are doing.

BGB Motorsports

I just meant that there isn't enough room to keep the interior and do a 6 point cage if you are 6ft. I think it would absolutely need a hoop like we do for the street/DE crowd and seats!

fbirch

You forgot (iii) Porsche's first use of glued-in water fittings. All three poorly implemented, catastrophically so in some instances. Some would argue that Porsche's first fling with adaptive suspension management in a GT car was less than stellar as well. For all the early adopters about to buy in to this substantially new GT, with all it's new subsystems, let's hope this time is different.

mdrums

Frayed and fbirch, yes great points about the history of 1st's with Porsche. I don't have the patience, time, money to be a Porsche field tester. I also don't want to have to argue with Porsche warranty when things break.

I had to argue for weeks with the zone rep from PCNA to get a crack in my header fixed on a 2009 Carrera S. Porsche didn't want to cover it because the car had been tracked.

ShakeNBake

You can do this in any 911. I bought an RS because in stock form it did the 24H of Nurburgring and placed very well. It is the closest thing to a race-car that you can drive to the track - and when I say closest thing, I don't mean it's the fasted thing out there, I mean it feels and behaves a lot like a race car. I'm not looking for a comfy daily driver - I prefer to be well abused on the street to remind me of the trade-off.

Those cars have nothing in common with the street versions except a BMW logo and "abandoned" engine architecture. The are purpose built race cars with a skin.

RyanPerrella

Only in your dreams!

Let's be happy if we see a second Gen Cayman R in 3-4 years.