roberga

Empirically PDK will result in faster lap times period. The desire to stick with manual is emotional which is valid. The driving experience of having to take the steps required skillfully drive a manual is rewarding but to suggest that a "skilled" driver can shift in 100ms AND not loose torque to the wheels during the shift is as believable as Jeremy Clarkson can drive a 911 without complaining or crashing.

Al Pettee

"Prognostizierten" definitely means prognosticated or predicted, but I am cetain the car will achieve what Porsche says.

Interestingly, the 2012 Corvette ZR1 achieved a sub-1:09 time too. Didn't it also run a 7:19 on the 'Ring on MPSC tires? Even with a manual transmission. I believe all other cars fster on the 'Ring used automatic trannies-unless you count the GT2RS's 7:18 reported by Porsche there. Correct me if I am wrong.

Nizer

I went back and counted shifts in this video of Timo Kluck running the 4.0 RS at the ring. I might be off by a couple but I get 60 shifts for his lap (less than expected). That translates into a 30-45 car length advantage for the automatic-equipped 991 GT3 using AP's stated 0.5-.75 car length gain or 439-658 feet over a lap using the 4.0 RS car length of 175.6".

The 4.0's 7:27 lap of 67,600ft Ring means that it was covering an average of 151ft/sec. So in theory, an automatic equipped 4.0 should have a theoretical best lap in the range of 7:24-7:23 (3-4 secs faster than a manual equipped 4.0, all else equal).

The 991 GT3 is claimed to be running near the same HP but has a significantly improved chassis that's stiffer and runs a wider front track plus it "benefits" from RWS (we'll leave Rad's opinion on the tires out for now).

Imagine what 991 GT3 could've done if it weighed less than the 4.0 RS, which would've been easy to achieve given its lighter motor and tub.

BTW, the 151ft/sec for the RS 4.0 works out to an average speed of 102.95 mph, which is stupid fast when you consider that James Hunt took the 1976 F1 pole with an average speed of 119.65mph, though still a bit off Stefan Bellof's insane 125.51 mph record.

wanna911

I'm not suggesting the shift times are equal, I'm suggesting the acceleration is not affected like the PDK fanboys think it is.

And this is PROVEN in videos like the one posted by Eddie and many videos that I have as well. Car with equal acceleration and no ground gained or lost by either car during shifts. It's called momentum, and the human most certainly can shift fast enough not to lose it. I have GPS data verification, and numerous videos as evidence.

It's also swept under the rug time and time again that Porsche ran the exact same time with a manual and PDK in the 997.2. Quoted by Walter Rohrl himself. Sure you can take grandma shifts and go out and get pummeled. And yes, it's more challenging and less consistent.

But that's where skill comes in. The word driver skill is like fingers nails on the chalkboard to PDK lovers.



So please make sense of Porsche's own testing in the 997.2 which around the entire nurburgring resulted in identical lap times. Quoted by the man Walter himself.

I'm still waiting for someone to make sense of that....... But most of the people jocking PDK don't have any reasons.

Gumpert Apollo
Viper ACR
GT2 RS
ZR-1

VS

GT-R
LFA
918

I would say the Manuals > Flappy's in this case, certainly in the case of times they are.

That math does not translate, and never has, never will either.

Mike in CA

That's interesting. I don't think every shift, though, would result in a 1/2 car length advantage. It would depend on the rate of acceleration, wouldn't it? The faster the rate of acceleration, especially in the lower gears, the more distance would be gained by not interrupting the power flow. At higher speeds, where the car's acceleration has started to slow, the advantage would less. I think.

Maybe AP's estimated 1/2 car length is an average and takes that difference into account, because your 3-4 second difference seems plausible.

Terry L

There should be almost no difference in downshifts; under max braking the shift is inconsequential. Up shifts from first to second should have big differences but that never happens on track except in a drag race. So we are really talking about 2-3 and 3-4 shifts since 4-5 should be barely noticeable. On those two shifts there ought to be a perceptible difference and that should be obvious on an acceleration graph, where the little notches should be missing.

Mike in CA

The acceleration times have been proven in test after test, which I tend to take more seriously than unscientific, homemade videos. There is no way to validate all of the factors that are in play in those grainy You Tube efforts.

The reference you make to Walter Rohrl and the NBR is from testing he did with the first generation PDK 4 years ago in 2009. The new 3rd gen GT3 PDK is a close ratio box with faster shift times and a number of other improvements. Also, on the Ring, there's only one Walter Rohrl. It's not that hard to explain.

"PDK fanboys", "people jocking PDK", "driver skill is like fingers (sic) nails on the chalkboard to PDK lovers": Aside from some of that being total BS, I'd take your arguments more seriously if you didn't feel that you had to deride people who have a different opinion than you do.

Carrera GT

You just packed a whole Bolshoi ballet into one post.
Why so serious?
PDK robot > human
QED

wanna911

Oh, I'm sorry that the real world doesn't mean as much to you as the magazines or that you may not trust your own eyes vs words from AP. Or that you refuse to believe GPS data . But the fact remains that the evidence is staring you right in the face. And until Porsche puts a Gen III PDK in a 997.2 (or vice versa) and proves that all of the technical jargon actually makes it faster than the previous PDK's on the track and by how much, that's all propaganda or best case, indiscernible as there is no way to tell what makes the 991 faster than the 997 without isolating each aspect.

So now you get to explain why Generation I pdk with much faster shifts than a human couldn't beat a manual yet Generation III pdk which doesn't shift that much faster than the Gen I manages to do so since it's all in the shifts right? Oh, but we no longer have a real manual to compare it to. Only a PDK bastard child manual which sacrifices all of it's advantages.

PS, your acceleration tests are generally from a stand still with a guy slipping a clutch in the manual vs launch control in the PDK. If you now anything about the track you would know the quicker launches are residual throughout the run. I'm not even going to bother explaining that. Aside from that, mag editors driving the manuals? LOL.

Mike in CA

That's true if everything goes perfectly; no fumbled shift, no distraction leading to less than optimum turn-in, what have you. Even a skilled driver misses one once in a while. PDK never does, which can translate to tenths here and there.

roberga

Porsche puts its lap time where its mouth is with the latest generation of 911. When the new 991-generation 911 Carrera S made its debut at last year's Frankfurt Motor Show, Porsche said that the new Carrera S would be a faster model than the Turbo model of the 997-era 911 it replaced. It seemed like an incredible claim, considering the power gap, but the Stuttgart-based automaker has proven the bold claim true as racing driver Timo Kluck put down an impressive lap time of 7:37.9 at the Nurburgring. That makes it two seconds faster than the previous Turbo, leaving us salivating over the thought of how fast the new 991 Turbo will prove itself on the Nordschleife.The new 911 Carrera S is powered by a 400-horsepower, 3.8-liter version of Porsche's signature flat-six. Mated to a PDK gearbox, the Carrera S can accelerate from 0-60mph in 4.3 seconds and reach a top speed of 188 mph. Hold on to your hats for the Turbo and GT3 versions to arrive in due course.

For those who consider themselves "skilled drivers" Just don't buy one. There are plenty other real driver cars out there.

Mike in CA

You should dial it back a notch, wanna911. You always seem angry.

What real world are referring to? A You Tube video? It was fun, what I could make out from the camera work, but no disrespect to Eddie, that was hardly a controlled experiment. A GPS plot that you say you have done but I've never seen? I know nothing about your expertise to conduct a proper test, and nothing about the circumstances under which you did the test. You say it's been PROVEN, but I've seen no credible evidence whatsoever.

I don't know why you bring up the 997.2 versus 991. 997.2's with PDK are faster than 997.2's with 6 speed MT. 991's with PDK are faster than 991's with the "bastard" 7sp MT. Discount the magazine tests if you want but they are consistent on this across the board and with Porsche's own acceleration claims, and they do testing for a living.

You don't get to say that gen 3 PDK "isn't much faster" than gen 1 without acknowledging the point that it is faster. Rohrl might have been able to nearly match the old PDK if it shifted at 200-300ms, but not at <100ms. On my first gen PDK, there also is a perceptible lag between pulling the paddle and when the shift actually occurs, which isn't part of the actual shift time. This has been corrected with the later generations, as well as supposedly shorter throws with the newest paddle shift, which while it may sound irrelevant to some, will make a small difference.

Here's the bottom line and it's a simple fact of human capability; no matter who you are, you can't make perfect <100ms shifts with uninterupted power delivery, not every time, not any time. Standing start acceleration runs may not be relevant on track, but accelerating out of 2nd and 3rd gear corners happens all the time and a +/- half car length gain with a couple of subsequent upshifts a couple of times or so a lap is significant.

You don't need to believe in propaganda to see the potential advantage of inhumanly fast power shifts, you just need to believe in physics.

BBMGT3

i think some are getting desperate.

pdk is faster shift than manual. stop drinking kool aid. no hand shift can be as quick. maybe if stars and planets align perfectly it can be close, but, seriously.

how much faster? I would assume in the lower gears the difference is more pronounced than higher gears. 2-3 must be where the most time is gained (ignoring 1-2 since rarely used)

then

not having to take hands off wheel... results in increased precision by the driver.

easier, more consistent driving = faster driving. applies to all racing categories.

seriously, go do 10 laps in a sequential Cup car. you will never want to track a manual again. waste of time.

and ffs about 'ring times; just wait for an official, 3rd party test.

alexb76

I think 991 GT3 design were 80% the result of business decisions rather than engineering, or enthusiasts reasons.

Basically, an executive ordered the following to the engineers:

- Use as much from 991 chasis so it's cheaper
- Use the same steering as 991, just tune it (software) - so it's cheaper
- Use the same 991 engine, just tune it up - much cheaper than Metzger
- Use the same 991 transmission, just tune it up - much cheaper than a race-class 6-speed
- Find out way to make 991 GT3 a tad faster than 997 GT3 WITHOUT costing too much - sticky tires, more HP, and RWS
- Don't worry too much about weight saving - so it's cheaper!
- Make it much easier to drive for new growth market drivers in Asia - so we sell more
- We know this may not be race ready - so let's not use this in RSR and Cup!
- If engines/transmissions blew - it's ok, just get some analysts calculate failure rate and we cover that cost, we don't care after warranty, just make sure warranty paperwork is tripled checked by lawyers
- Come on evo and other channels claiming all of these decisions were made as an enthusiast

I actually think 991 GT3 will be faster in hands of novices like me, and just as 991, this is a business decision even confirmed in the evo video, they're widening the appeal of 991, INCLUDING GT3! It's all business decisions folks... make more money with less costs and sell to more people, enthusiasts and racers will find other ways!

That's my take on the whole 991 program, it's pretty simple actually, businessmen tookover the decisions and it is what we got as the result. It will continue down this path, unless their sales suffer, which I highly doubt due to new markets in China and other places that's got no Porsche legacy and they don't really care if next GT3 followed the same legacy or not!

My 2 cents...

wanna911

I'm not hostile, just pointing out the obvious. There is no malice here.

It's an acceleration test, you line up, floor it and shift. Anyone and their grandma can do that in a dual clutch, that's well documented.

I have posted my data, it's out there. No discernible shift detected by data, and it was not a power shift. Car never stopped accelerating. Eddie's video proves that there is no half car length to be gained during his shifts. PROOF.

My point about the 997.2 and 991, which was clearly missed, was about lap times. Not acceleration.

The paddle lag makes no difference as it can be compensated for by the driver. Has no effect on the shift time. A nuisance of timing more than anything. But surely people too lazy to press a clutch pedal and move a lever a few times would want to be bothered with having to time up a pull of the paddle.

We can argue semantics all day but regardless of how fast the shift occurs the end result is the only thing that matters, and that's relative acceleration. These videos prove that a good manual shift will not lose ground to a DSG, Sequential, PDK.

Half a car length on the straight is not very significant, even advanced level drivers aren't that accurate in their braking zones to make use of that. Plus, mr physics, you have to know that a few more mph into the braking zone increases your braking distance significantly. Especially when you have more weight to stop and no extra traction.