new GT3 not from original GT1 engine-what can we expect?
03-19-2013, 05:33 PM
#16
Race Director
Porsche has had a lot on their plate the last few years from the financial meltdown that had all manufacturers intially cutting back racing programs, to the botched merger, to building up their product line with the Macan 918 960, to the LeMans development program. GT racing was not a top priority and they had Mezgers in the pipeline, so why not use them for 2013? Priorities. It could be as simple as that.....
03-19-2013, 06:19 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Hi Wurlie. I read (cant recall where) that Porsche put aside Mezger blocks last year for motorspots to use to continue to use for production of Cup and RSR for season 2013 (and one presumes 2014 depending on transition timing). I imagine also for spares as there must be quite a few hundred mezger Cup cars around the world many doing club racing and other. I dont full understand the reasoning either but my guess is AP knew more than he can say and they may choose to use the 991 GT3RS unveiling or press releases to tie the production range in with the launch of the 2014 cup specs which usually is announced mid Dec each year. I have no inside knowledge on this one so its pure speculation...
03-19-2013, 07:36 PM
#18
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There was a poster on this forum some time ago saying the supplier who provides the crank cases had received a large order for more from Porsche motorsport. Perhaps this is what you are recalling?
Motorsport make their own engines and stock spares for the race cars at weissach. It's totally separate from the street production facility. They also rebuild them there.
What goes on in Stuttgart does not have to therefor tally with what goes on in the motorsport centre. Totally different operations and personnel.
Fwiw the Mezger has 8 years of homologation after its dropped from road car use according to FIA rules last time I looked. That would technically give it until 2020 give or take for FIA/ACO competition. Cup and supercup can run whatever they please. Single make series so manufacturer sets the rules and equipment.
AP is manager of GT car production. He does not work for Porsche motorsport despite some in the media confusing the two.
As a result his parrying response to the motorsport question may be because he simply doesn't know, he knows and its not inline with the message he is trying to sell or it might simply be that he knows but its not his statement to make and doesn't want to step on the toes of motorsport. Who knows for sure.
Given the spin in the promo videos (and that includes the interview) it was an unusual moment that's for sure. A hesitant "I guess" muttered to a question he must have known would be asked.
Time will be the only provider of anything more however.
Motorsport make their own engines and stock spares for the race cars at weissach. It's totally separate from the street production facility. They also rebuild them there.
What goes on in Stuttgart does not have to therefor tally with what goes on in the motorsport centre. Totally different operations and personnel.
Fwiw the Mezger has 8 years of homologation after its dropped from road car use according to FIA rules last time I looked. That would technically give it until 2020 give or take for FIA/ACO competition. Cup and supercup can run whatever they please. Single make series so manufacturer sets the rules and equipment.
AP is manager of GT car production. He does not work for Porsche motorsport despite some in the media confusing the two.
As a result his parrying response to the motorsport question may be because he simply doesn't know, he knows and its not inline with the message he is trying to sell or it might simply be that he knows but its not his statement to make and doesn't want to step on the toes of motorsport. Who knows for sure.
Given the spin in the promo videos (and that includes the interview) it was an unusual moment that's for sure. A hesitant "I guess" muttered to a question he must have known would be asked.
Time will be the only provider of anything more however.
03-19-2013, 08:33 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Outline. Everything you say is correct from what I understand of PAG organisation. Im not knowledgeable on the homologation rules but it makes sense to allow any manufacturer a technology ramp down period after an engine is removed from line production/volume model inclusion I guess.
There is only one significant factor that has changed since the 997.1 GT3 was launched. Herr Piech (see other thread on Porsche Motorsports in 2014 for sh*ts and giggles!). In all seriousness however as soon as VW obtained full control 18 months ago all bets are off. Piech and his team are not sentimental. You have to remember he headed up Porsche Experimental Racing Development division in the late 60s and brought the 917 to fruition (an unconventional design for Porsche at the time). VAG will use Porsche as a brand instrument for their own purposes and their vision I guess will become clear over the next few years. One thing I have no doubt however it Piech/VAG will not deploy a Mezger designed engine for any longer than they need to if reliable and more technically advanced and efficient technology is available. The Mezger is on limited time that no one can argue the rest of course is speculation...
There is only one significant factor that has changed since the 997.1 GT3 was launched. Herr Piech (see other thread on Porsche Motorsports in 2014 for sh*ts and giggles!). In all seriousness however as soon as VW obtained full control 18 months ago all bets are off. Piech and his team are not sentimental. You have to remember he headed up Porsche Experimental Racing Development division in the late 60s and brought the 917 to fruition (an unconventional design for Porsche at the time). VAG will use Porsche as a brand instrument for their own purposes and their vision I guess will become clear over the next few years. One thing I have no doubt however it Piech/VAG will not deploy a Mezger designed engine for any longer than they need to if reliable and more technically advanced and efficient technology is available. The Mezger is on limited time that no one can argue the rest of course is speculation...
03-19-2013, 08:55 PM
#20
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Absolutely. Porsche is a cog within a machine now thanks to their own market dabbling and how that cog is intended to be used remains not quite fully clear.
The group as a whole operates in a more integrated fashion than perhaps is understood. Audi interiors for example are subsidised by savings generated from cross platform component sharing across the entire group. This ensures audi keeps its place in the market in a way that competitors cannot hope to match at the same price point.
Piech back at the helm is an interesting one. I suspect many dont realise his back story from the early days.
One wonders where he will take things. Porsche has more baggage than they did when he was there before and he has more weight on him so we shall see if its radical or subtle in time and whether Porsche becomes absorbed completely or only via management outlook.
The group as a whole operates in a more integrated fashion than perhaps is understood. Audi interiors for example are subsidised by savings generated from cross platform component sharing across the entire group. This ensures audi keeps its place in the market in a way that competitors cannot hope to match at the same price point.
Piech back at the helm is an interesting one. I suspect many dont realise his back story from the early days.
One wonders where he will take things. Porsche has more baggage than they did when he was there before and he has more weight on him so we shall see if its radical or subtle in time and whether Porsche becomes absorbed completely or only via management outlook.
03-19-2013, 10:20 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
One small silver lining. Piech can make things happen when he wants that have no viable or plausible reason to be made a reality. Hes independently wealthy (estimates are 2+ billion USD) and although VAG has shareholder he basically runs it with an iron fist almost no one has tried to interfere (or zee wilz bez cutz downz in zee trenchz!). The Bugatti acquisition and subsequent Veyron was an example of an "investment" that will likely never work on the balance sheet but satisfied Herr Piech's desire to "flex his engineering muscle". Frankly I think he may have had a crack habit at the time with that one but it shows he can surprise if there is still life left in him.
03-19-2013, 11:25 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
03-20-2013, 02:39 AM
#23
Race Director
9A1 based engine does not have these issues...doesn't even use IMS or RMS and coolant lines are solid and mostly internal. 9A1 engine is solid as heck. A factory sealed showroom stock engine won the Rolex Grand Am GS series. Zero failures all year. 9A1 is going sting in 2013 too.
03-20-2013, 02:44 AM
#24
GT3 player par excellence
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no one really know what the engine is about.
magazines are written journalist who may or may not know anything or have similar taste as you.
i suggest you just buy one and try it out yourself. it's more interesting that way than speculating all day
magazines are written journalist who may or may not know anything or have similar taste as you.
i suggest you just buy one and try it out yourself. it's more interesting that way than speculating all day
03-20-2013, 04:20 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
The Bugatti acquisition and subsequent Veyron was an example of an "investment" that will likely never work on the balance sheet but satisfied Herr Piech's desire to "flex his engineering muscle". Frankly I think he may have had a crack habit at the time with that one but it shows he can surprise if there is still life left in him.
03-20-2013, 05:43 AM
#26
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There was a poster on this forum some time ago saying the supplier who provides the crank cases had received a large order for more from Porsche motorsport. Perhaps this is what you are recalling?
Motorsport make their own engines and stock spares for the race cars at weissach. It's totally separate from the street production facility. They also rebuild them there.
What goes on in Stuttgart does not have to therefor tally with what goes on in the motorsport centre. Totally different operations and personnel.
Fwiw the Mezger has 8 years of homologation after its dropped from road car use according to FIA rules last time I looked. That would technically give it until 2020 give or take for FIA/ACO competition. Cup and supercup can run whatever they please. Single make series so manufacturer sets the rules and equipment.
AP is manager of GT car production. He does not work for Porsche motorsport despite some in the media confusing the two.
As a result his parrying response to the motorsport question may be because he simply doesn't know, he knows and its not inline with the message he is trying to sell or it might simply be that he knows but its not his statement to make and doesn't want to step on the toes of motorsport. Who knows for sure.
Given the spin in the promo videos (and that includes the interview) it was an unusual moment that's for sure. A hesitant "I guess" muttered to a question he must have known would be asked.
Time will be the only provider of anything more however.
Motorsport make their own engines and stock spares for the race cars at weissach. It's totally separate from the street production facility. They also rebuild them there.
What goes on in Stuttgart does not have to therefor tally with what goes on in the motorsport centre. Totally different operations and personnel.
Fwiw the Mezger has 8 years of homologation after its dropped from road car use according to FIA rules last time I looked. That would technically give it until 2020 give or take for FIA/ACO competition. Cup and supercup can run whatever they please. Single make series so manufacturer sets the rules and equipment.
AP is manager of GT car production. He does not work for Porsche motorsport despite some in the media confusing the two.
As a result his parrying response to the motorsport question may be because he simply doesn't know, he knows and its not inline with the message he is trying to sell or it might simply be that he knows but its not his statement to make and doesn't want to step on the toes of motorsport. Who knows for sure.
Given the spin in the promo videos (and that includes the interview) it was an unusual moment that's for sure. A hesitant "I guess" muttered to a question he must have known would be asked.
Time will be the only provider of anything more however.
03-20-2013, 05:57 AM
#27
Burning Brakes
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Outline. Everything you say is correct from what I understand of PAG organisation. Im not knowledgeable on the homologation rules but it makes sense to allow any manufacturer a technology ramp down period after an engine is removed from line production/volume model inclusion I guess.
There is only one significant factor that has changed since the 997.1 GT3 was launched. Herr Piech (see other thread on Porsche Motorsports in 2014 for sh*ts and giggles!). In all seriousness however as soon as VW obtained full control 18 months ago all bets are off. Piech and his team are not sentimental. You have to remember he headed up Porsche Experimental Racing Development division in the late 60s and brought the 917 to fruition (an unconventional design for Porsche at the time). VAG will use Porsche as a brand instrument for their own purposes and their vision I guess will become clear over the next few years. One thing I have no doubt however it Piech/VAG will not deploy a Mezger designed engine for any longer than they need to if reliable and more technically advanced and efficient technology is available. The Mezger is on limited time that no one can argue the rest of course is speculation...
There is only one significant factor that has changed since the 997.1 GT3 was launched. Herr Piech (see other thread on Porsche Motorsports in 2014 for sh*ts and giggles!). In all seriousness however as soon as VW obtained full control 18 months ago all bets are off. Piech and his team are not sentimental. You have to remember he headed up Porsche Experimental Racing Development division in the late 60s and brought the 917 to fruition (an unconventional design for Porsche at the time). VAG will use Porsche as a brand instrument for their own purposes and their vision I guess will become clear over the next few years. One thing I have no doubt however it Piech/VAG will not deploy a Mezger designed engine for any longer than they need to if reliable and more technically advanced and efficient technology is available. The Mezger is on limited time that no one can argue the rest of course is speculation...
Your constructed paralell of Piechs time from the 60s to today..I dont know..its a bit weak I think. Keep in mind that Mr Mzger was aleady working at that time on the engine of the 917..and this is more than 30 years ago now..the world has completely changed.
But youre not far off the reality of today either..you know that Mr Piech is driving a Cayman with an experimental Boxer 8 Cylinder..(?) What does that tell you with regards to the new 991 GT3 engine..? Remember what I spculated before..this is their plan B..if its not plan A (= keep using the current CUP-RSR for another 2 years and then jump in with an 8 Boxer)..and maybe thats why Mr AP is hesitant.
But with all this speculation..what I just wanted to raise is that for me (and Porsche logic too) there is no 100% certainty that the new Gt3 engine will appear in CUP or RSR.
In fact for me, time can only tell..we can discuss this here forever..but its pointless..I see two key dates that will give us the answer:
1) Dec 2013: new CUP 2014 will be unveiled - two options:
a) still using the current engine = 991 GT3 engine probably never in racig cars
b) new 991 GT3 engine in there - will restore confidence..however, this is a Porsche racing series only..even if the engine has not good reliabilty...no body would care so much..
2) The more important date: Early 2014: Will the RSR still be using the 997 RSR engine - if so..then I highly doubt that the 991 GT3 engine will ever get into the RSR..and maybe then Mr Piechs 8 Cylinder Boxer comes back into play..for the future.
In the mean time..there isnt much we can do...and as mooty said..lets drive our machines --this discussion her is interesting...but nobody can give us the answer to the question..- I think.
03-20-2013, 06:23 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
Hi Porsche.collector
Sorry for the weakness. Paraphrasing a great mans life less than 1000 words is not an easy feat even for someone who speaks english as a first language trust me LOL!
For many here there are two key milestones that will dictate the success of the Porsche 991 GT3. Both will be known by Xmas.
1). Acceptance by the worlds motoring press. Evo magazine particularly for english speaking will be one of the first to review the car properly on road and track and likely one of the hardest to please (they have already found fault with 991 electric steering servo etc). If Evo talk great things then the car will be already on its way to folklore and stands a chance of inning their Dec 2013 Car of the Year (COTY). Many folks on here including myself trust their brand of journalism more than most.
2). Dec 2013 announcement of power unit for 991 GT3 Cup and shortly thereafter for 991 RSR. We have been told the RSR will change next year but it could be cosmetic or engine hopefully both. This is Porsches best shot to converge the product lines and recoonect the Motorsports heritage - probably at the same time as early announcement of 991 GT3RS specification and early press photographs. If Porsche misses this opportunity the chances diminish until Dec 2014 when all becomes known if we are looking at an alignment with 960 powertrain tech or Pieches little V8 gocart....
Mooty is right. Too much speculation here...
Sorry for the weakness. Paraphrasing a great mans life less than 1000 words is not an easy feat even for someone who speaks english as a first language trust me LOL!
For many here there are two key milestones that will dictate the success of the Porsche 991 GT3. Both will be known by Xmas.
1). Acceptance by the worlds motoring press. Evo magazine particularly for english speaking will be one of the first to review the car properly on road and track and likely one of the hardest to please (they have already found fault with 991 electric steering servo etc). If Evo talk great things then the car will be already on its way to folklore and stands a chance of inning their Dec 2013 Car of the Year (COTY). Many folks on here including myself trust their brand of journalism more than most.
2). Dec 2013 announcement of power unit for 991 GT3 Cup and shortly thereafter for 991 RSR. We have been told the RSR will change next year but it could be cosmetic or engine hopefully both. This is Porsches best shot to converge the product lines and recoonect the Motorsports heritage - probably at the same time as early announcement of 991 GT3RS specification and early press photographs. If Porsche misses this opportunity the chances diminish until Dec 2014 when all becomes known if we are looking at an alignment with 960 powertrain tech or Pieches little V8 gocart....
Mooty is right. Too much speculation here...
03-20-2013, 06:29 AM
#29
Burning Brakes
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Hi Porsche.collector
Sorry for the weakness. Paraphrasing a great mans life less than 1000 words is not an easy feat even for someone who speaks english as a first language trust me LOL!
For many here there are two key milestones that will dictate the success of the Porsche 991 GT3. Both will be known by Xmas.
1). Acceptance by the worlds motoring press. Evo magazine particularly for english speaking will be one of the first to review the car properly on road and track and likely one of the hardest to please (they have already found fault with 991 electric steering servo etc). If Evo talk great things then the car will be already on its way to folklore and stands a chance of inning their Dec 2013 Car of the Year (COTY). Many folks on here including myself trust their brand of journalism more than most.
2). Dec 2013 announcement of power unit for 991 GT3 Cup and shortly thereafter for 991 RSR. We have been told the RSR will change next year but it could be cosmetic or engine hopefully both. This is Porsches best shot to converge the product lines and recoonect the Motorsports heritage - probably at the same time as early announcement of 991 GT3RS specification and early press photographs. If Porsche misses this opportunity the chances diminish until Dec 2014 when all becomes known if we are looking at an alignment with 960 powertrain tech or Pieches little V8 gocart....
Mooty is right. Too much speculation here...
Sorry for the weakness. Paraphrasing a great mans life less than 1000 words is not an easy feat even for someone who speaks english as a first language trust me LOL!
For many here there are two key milestones that will dictate the success of the Porsche 991 GT3. Both will be known by Xmas.
1). Acceptance by the worlds motoring press. Evo magazine particularly for english speaking will be one of the first to review the car properly on road and track and likely one of the hardest to please (they have already found fault with 991 electric steering servo etc). If Evo talk great things then the car will be already on its way to folklore and stands a chance of inning their Dec 2013 Car of the Year (COTY). Many folks on here including myself trust their brand of journalism more than most.
2). Dec 2013 announcement of power unit for 991 GT3 Cup and shortly thereafter for 991 RSR. We have been told the RSR will change next year but it could be cosmetic or engine hopefully both. This is Porsches best shot to converge the product lines and recoonect the Motorsports heritage - probably at the same time as early announcement of 991 GT3RS specification and early press photographs. If Porsche misses this opportunity the chances diminish until Dec 2014 when all becomes known if we are looking at an alignment with 960 powertrain tech or Pieches little V8 gocart....
Mooty is right. Too much speculation here...
You mentioned "you have been told the RSR will change next year"..who said that? Never heard that..and keep in mind that its not so easy under FIA rules..there are possibilties..but its not that every years all the teams show up with a completely new engine..the reason behind is also cost..these babies are already expensive enought..it would start a "development war"..where only everybody would loose in the end..
Anway, I think we agree on that fact before Dec 2013..there isnt much we can do..
03-20-2013, 06:45 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
He Andreas no need to apologize. You probably speak three languages more than I do!
I read about the RSR this year being the last in this format online through a reputable source in the last week. It was a statement from Porsche Motorsports I am sure and I will try an find it for you.
By releasing the 991 GT3 and 991 GT3RS already with 9A1 motorsports engine perhaps homologisation becomes much easier for Porsche and this time gives them what they need to have FAI certification.
Remember with 996.1 GT3 you have 964.XXX.XXX.XX part number stamping on crank case. people often say based on "GT1" engine but that isnt entirely accurate. Bottom end of that engine based on old 964 & 993 block. Certification considerably easier back in 1998.
I read about the RSR this year being the last in this format online through a reputable source in the last week. It was a statement from Porsche Motorsports I am sure and I will try an find it for you.
By releasing the 991 GT3 and 991 GT3RS already with 9A1 motorsports engine perhaps homologisation becomes much easier for Porsche and this time gives them what they need to have FAI certification.
Remember with 996.1 GT3 you have 964.XXX.XXX.XX part number stamping on crank case. people often say based on "GT1" engine but that isnt entirely accurate. Bottom end of that engine based on old 964 & 993 block. Certification considerably easier back in 1998.