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Porsche can't afford to buy Carbon Fiber

 
Old 03-18-2013, 02:39 PM
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Carrera GT
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Default Porsche can't afford to buy Carbon Fiber

VW and BMW are warring over control of carbon fiber production supply chain. Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mercedes are all heavily invested in buying forward production capacity of carbon fiber. Long story short, aluminum sort of missed the boat and the auto industry has plans reaching into the next decade which mean rapid growth in composite material use for lighter, cheaper (?!) stronger, faster vehicles.

It's purely speculation on my part and it doesn't change the "we don't need to put expensive CF panels into the 'base model' GT3 product differentiation from the RS, which surely has to have CF panels to get the weight down and to be an "advance" on the previous model type 997's.

Putting 2 and 2 together, I get 3.991 rather than 4.0 ... : ) ... so this first 991 is a tad short of the marque.

In other words, VW has a problem with access to CF supply, so they're not going to commit to using it in a lowly GT3 when it doesn't serve the good of the P&L statement.

Here's news story on CF supply chain machinations today from Autoline Detroit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7yR0fCw#t=293s
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT View Post
VW and BMW are warring over control of carbon fiber production supply chain. Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mercedes are all heavily invested in buying forward production capacity of carbon fiber. Long story short, aluminum sort of missed the boat and the auto industry has plans reaching into the next decade which mean rapid growth in composite material use for lighter, cheaper (?!) stronger, faster vehicles.

It's purely speculation on my part and it doesn't change the "we don't need to put expensive CF panels into the 'base model' GT3 product differentiation from the RS, which surely has to have CF panels to get the weight down and to be an "advance" on the previous model type 997's.

Putting 2 and 2 together, I get 3.991 rather than 4.0 ... : ) ... so this first 991 is a tad short of the marque.

In other words, VW has a problem with access to CF supply, so they're not going to commit to using it in a lowly GT3 when it doesn't serve the good of the P&L statement.

Here's news story on CF supply chain machinations today from Autoline Detroit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7yR0fCw#t=293s


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Old 03-18-2013, 03:23 PM
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Blimey. Here I thought we had discussed PDK, RWS and bucket seats to death. Then carbon fibre pops up
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by StirlingMoss View Post
Blimey. Here I thought we had discussed PDK, RWS and bucket seats to death. Then carbon fibre pops up
yes..agree completely..

@Carrera GT: what are you trying to say with that ? BMW has increased their share in a company producing CF - with a factory in Wahington state. They have invested huges sums in the subject of lighweight materials etc..so far they only generated losses with it.

I doubt that one day we will see a 3 series BMW made from CF..but BMW is holding up that dream..and is heavily committed. Lets see how it turns out. Reminds me of the solar panel boom a few years ago..now most manufacturers are bust, local installation companies also..and solar panels are now coming from China.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT View Post
VW and BMW are warring over control of carbon fiber production supply chain. Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mercedes are all heavily invested in buying forward production capacity of carbon fiber. Long story short, aluminum sort of missed the boat and the auto industry has plans reaching into the next decade which mean rapid growth in composite material use for lighter, cheaper (?!) stronger, faster vehicles.

It's purely speculation on my part and it doesn't change the "we don't need to put expensive CF panels into the 'base model' GT3 product differentiation from the RS, which surely has to have CF panels to get the weight down and to be an "advance" on the previous model type 997's.

Putting 2 and 2 together, I get 3.991 rather than 4.0 ... : ) ... so this first 991 is a tad short of the marque.

In other words, VW has a problem with access to CF supply, so they're not going to commit to using it in a lowly GT3 when it doesn't serve the good of the P&L statement.

Here's news story on CF supply chain machinations today from Autoline Detroit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7yR0fCw#t=293s
US car and light-duty fleet standards:

2016 - 35.5mpg
2025 - 54.5mpg

Nuff said.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:39 PM
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Prices will continue to fall due to (1) new production techniques that are uncovered as more suppliers and manufacturers innovate to capture share and (2) economies of scale as the composites proliferate.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
Prices will continue to fall due to (1) new production techniques that are uncovered as more suppliers and manufacturers innovate to capture share and (2) economies of scale as the composites proliferate.
YES..but that doesnt mean that we will be driving all MP4-12s in 10 years as normal road cars. Engines will have to be much smaller..to get the figures Nizer mentioned..similare ones in EU...so no 600HP with a carbon monocoque..rather - maybe a monocoque with a 50HP - electric engine..
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:30 AM
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From what little I understand CF panels are worth maybe 5-7kg savings over alloy. Until Porsche go to a CF tub for the 991 GT series platform I cant see any meaningful advantages vs cost for CF on the GT cars and CF tubs will be reserved to top $$$ models like Carrera GT, 960?, 918 etc.

Frankly having used CF extensively both cosmetically and structurally/weight reduction wise in my 993 I believe the product has its place but that CF exterior panels are not that place in the GT3. Sure throw on a CF rood or hood but the matrix has little in the way of absorption qualities, its hard to make UV stable for exterior treatments and requires specialised bonding products. Hit an armaco at low speed in your CF panel clad 991.2 GT3RS and your in for a whole world of cost to (specialist) repair compared with traditional materials. Id rather leave the CF Pagani product to those gazillionaires that can afford it. Legislation is what has cost us weight. And our lazy *** consumerism demanding more TFT, Navi, Air etc. Fashion too with larger (heavier) wheels, wider bodies, bigger brakes the cycle just goes on.

I blame it on us. If we had have all voted with our wallets back when they were building the 964/993 generation cars we would have stayed at 1300 kgs and still had manual transmission. no PTV+ or 4WS or PDK or sports wart chrono....

LOL! We did it to our selves!
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
From what little I understand CF panels are worth maybe 5-7kg savings over alloy. Until Porsche go to a CF tub for the 991 GT series platform I cant see any meaningful advantages vs cost for CF on the GT cars and CF tubs will be reserved to top $$$ models like Carrera GT, 960?, 918 etc.

Frankly having used CF extensively both cosmetically and structurally/weight reduction wise in my 993 I believe the product has its place but that CF exterior panels are not that place in the GT3. Sure throw on a CF rood or hood but the matrix has little in the way of absorption qualities, its hard to make UV stable for exterior treatments and requires specialised bonding products. Hit an armaco at low speed in your CF panel clad 991.2 GT3RS and your in for a whole world of cost to (specialist) repair compared with traditional materials. Id rather leave the CF Pagani product to those gazillionaires that can afford it. Legislation is what has cost us weight. And our lazy *** consumerism demanding more TFT, Navi, Air etc. Fashion too with larger (heavier) wheels, wider bodies, bigger brakes the cycle just goes on.

I blame it on us. If we had have all voted with our wallets back when they were building the 964/993 generation cars we would have stayed at 1300 kgs and still had manual transmission. no PTV+ or 4WS or PDK or sports wart chrono....

LOL! We did it to our selves!
The maneuvers by all the mentioned car makers indicates they're preparing for a time when we're going to see steel and aluminum price themselves to a point that composites and recycled materials become viable.

As for CF, that's been the set of questions around the Carrera GT (fading, discoloration and yellowing, practically impossible to repair, exhaustion of "spare" tubs.) It's suffered all those expected problems. If you search around, you'll find a Carrera GT repair thread. Pretty cool. Scary. But interesting.

In terms of it being a practical material for everyday use, it will be interesting when two CF tub cars collide at high speed in an intersection and eviscerate the occupants with shards of carbon kevlar.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:53 PM
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Carrera GT. That's interesting about the issues CDT owners are having. I must say Im not surprised. What i have learned from 10+ years of using CF on exterior surfaces is that it looks like crap after its been pocked by stones and exposed to the sun. On my Ducati 996 front wheel cover it started delaminating form the wet and UV, went mottled colour and the stone chips leave large marks as the resin surface spreads the impact. If I were keeping a car of a long time Id steer away from owning something with CF panels after my experience and that of a friend with an e46 M3 with CF roof which after 8 years is starting to look quite scruffy (hes about to have it etch primed and painted to hide the damage caused by sun and bird droppings, fine scratches etc.

And you are quite right. if anyone has seen a CF panel in an accident they will know it positively "explodes" and the shards and fragments are worse then fiberglass, very small and sharp. Great tech but really a "use one time then discard" product and should remain in the domain of millionaires and F1. Other issues include advance bonding agent to mate the CF panels to alloy frames which after 10 years often need redoing as the "advance" bonding agents were never tested real world for 10+ years of vibration and use. you cant help but think some poor sucker who buys one of these cars as a collectible 20 years from now it will be fragile and expensive to maintain to actually use!
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