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The 991 GT3 is the new 996.1 GT3!

 
Old 03-15-2013, 02:25 AM
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Macca
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Default The 991 GT3 is the new 996.1 GT3!

I was reading through a few threads here. I understand the 996.1 GT3 wasn't available to many on this board but it occurred to me that the 996.1 GT3 when it was launched in 1999 shows so many similarities to the 991 GT3 - that help to understand how this new model GT3 impacts us and how its sits in the new world Porsche order.....

1). The 996.1 GT3 was 20-30kg heavier than the 996 it was based on.

2). The 996.1 GT3 was a new concept - previously go fast models had been labelled RS and this moniker wasnt revived until the 996.2 GT3 RS a number of years later.

3). The 996.1 GT3 was a new engine concept. A halfway house between the standard cars watercooled unit (later found to have a number of shortcomings) and what was then known as the GT1 bottom end (effectively now known as Mezger block used in 964/993 etc.

4). The 996.1 GT3 heralded a new performance moniker that was far more plush than its predecessors (964+993RS) ans was touted at the time to be suitable for daily driving.

5). The 996.1 GT3 heralded a number of advances not seen before on the RS variants (2 stage variocam etc).

6). the 996.1 GT3 ushered in a high rpm engine (at that time - 7800 rpm red line) that revved far more than any of its production fore-bearers (993RS topped out 6850 rpm). Peak power was made at 7200 rpm, 600rpm short of the red line.

7). The 996.1 GT3 offered a significant jump in bhp from the base Carrera 996 at the time (approximately 40 bhp).

8). The 996.1 GT3 was remarkably quicker than its predecessors in every important performance criteria (lap times, 0-100 etc).


The 996.1 GT3 when it was launched was debated amongst the press much in the way the 991 GT3 has been on these boards. Remember, before the GT3 the RS models had weighed between 1200-1270kg and been much rawer.

PDK and lightweight seats aside what we are seeing with the shift in platform, expectations and marketing is exactly what happened in 1998/1999.

Just thought this was an interesting analogy. May here forget the first GT3 was heavier than its base relative. It also came with a considerable performance benefit. The 991 GT3 is indeed more similar than we think and spells a new paradigm shift for Porsche, its marketing department and its customers...

Last edited by Macca; 03-15-2013 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:51 AM
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This is a great post. Sounds right to me.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:59 AM
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Haha. Nice try AP!
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:02 AM
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Hi Macca,

All correct - except for point 3 - you know the most important for the track warriors

"3). The 996.1 GT3 was a new engine concept. A halfway house between the standard cars watercooled unit (later found to have a number of shortcomings) and what was then known as the GT1 bottom end (effectively now known as Mezger block used in 964/993 etc"

There is a serious mistake in there - the GT3 engine had nothing (except for alternator plus a few other bits) in common with the 996 Carrera engine. Also, the GT3 engine wasnt really a new concept, it was rather a collection of parts that had already been used in motorsport before - they have just for the first time been assembled in this order to make it a new engine. But in the end, the engine parts were not so new.

No matter whether one likes the 991 GT3 or not, from an engine point of view there is a huge difference, the 996 GT3 engine was not really new and also had motorsport heritage - compared to the 991 GT3 engine.

When the 996 Gt3 came out..I wasnt overwhelmed by its design..but it was immediately clear that the engine is light years ahead of the 993RS engine..it revved much higher, more internal strengh etc. As much as I like also the 993 RS...its clear that the engine from the 996 GT3 is from another planet. The materials used are also much better compared to the 993 engine..which compared to the 996 GT3 engine was a "cheap lame duck"..sorry for my words..but the difference between these engines is huge.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:21 AM
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Mmmmm. Porsche.collector I'm not sure about all that.

I think the bottom end was similar to the 993 GT1 case which I think was based on the 964/993 and earlier design. Water cooled heads of course but that had been used before in a production car on the 959. The gearbox was based on the 993 GT2 design itself a variation of the box used in the 993.

In my statement I liken the way the 996.1 GT3 engine was a combination of technologies and parts not used on the base production engine to how the 991 GT3 engine is also far from the standard 991 9A1 engine with its new top end designed and heavily strengthened bottom end. The analogy is not so far from what was cobbled together for the 996 GT3 which became the basis of a motorsports platform as I suspect the 991 GT3 engine will potentially become.

You have obviously owned both 993RS and 996.1 GT3 like I have, based on your comments?

Actually you almost had me until your final comment. To say Porsches 3.6 litre aircooled engine (which has been a platform for club racing all around the world) was a "cheap lame duck" actually ruins your credibility. If you would like to re-post your comments on the 993/964 boards - I and a bunch others would love to take you task on that comment over there.....
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:46 AM
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Ensuing from a Pistonheads thread on the "Specialness" of the 996.1 GT3, the ensuing post is from Fioran0, ....makes for some interesting comparisons between the GT3 cup and the road going iterations. Bolding is my emphasis.

Seemed apropo for this discussion.

"the technical aspect relating to this perception of "special" is one thats of far more interest to me atleast. while the later cars do without question supply better stats and carry upgrades, just as one would expect, this imho tells far less than the full picture. its interesting to note that even as early as the 996.2 GT3 one can identify the creep of cost cutting/cost awareness and dilution being introduced, something thats increased with each subsequent model.
the overall capabilities have increased incrementally but importantly and tellingly begin to fall far short of what porsche could actually have and indeed were achieving with the platform. this is the crucial point.

the differences between a customer racing car (996 cup) and a mk1 GT3 of the same year is incredibly small (ignoring the obvious mandatory for racing items such as fire system, full cage, no interior etc) meaning the GT3 they chose to bring to the road user was very very close to the top of its game at that time. fast forward to the 996.2 GT3 (and even RS) and compare this to a 2004 996 Cup and already things have opened up tremendously. the list of parts on the Cup that are different to the road car is extensive and many of them could have been included on the GT3 if porsche had wanted to (as shown by the many folks adding them to their own cars which still see street useage). over and above this the 996.2 gets E-gas and a far more safety concerned ABS system. while the former varies in impact upon the driver (generally spreading out around the annoying category but definitely is not a positive thing) the latter is much less "fun" if you track your car or drive hard, both impinge upon the driving aspect of the car.

by the time of the 997 the gap is even larger still, a look around a 997 cup and a comparable year GT3 leaves you wondering if they are even the same car, while the GT3 sees a further addition of features that impact the drivers control and mechanical parts that arent up to the job of anything more than road use (cheap diffs for starters).

by the time of the 997(.2 ed.), porsche had long stopped building cars for track users, though happily continued to sell cars based off the back of this perception and subsequent credibility. this wasnt, and isnt where the bulk of their new car sales come from. they arent in the business of making cars that grind and graunch and that see Porsche plummet down the satisfaction and reliability surveys.
ive long known this, and actually had a chat with some folks from the mothership a few weeks ago about this very point where they were very open about it all.

this doesnt make the later cars crap and it certainly doesnt make the earlier cars superior but it does mean that there hasnt been since, and will never be again another road going porsche like the 996 GT3 mk1 and this makes it very special."

Original thread here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...800.51696&nmt=
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Mmmmm. Porsche.collector I'm not sure about all that.

I think the bottom end was similar to the 993 GT1 case which I think was based on the 964/993 and earlier design. Water cooled heads of course but that had been used before in a production car on the 959. The gearbox was based on the 993 GT2 design itself a variation of the box used in the 993.

In my statement I liken the way the 996.1 GT3 engine was a combination of technologies and parts not used on the base production engine to how the 991 GT3 engine is also far from the standard 991 9A1 engine with its new top end designed and heavily strengthened bottom end. The analogy is not so far from what was cobbled together for the 996 GT3 which became the basis of a motorsports platform as I suspect the 991 GT3 engine will potentially become.

You have obviously owned both 993RS and 996.1 GT3 like I have, based on your comments?

Actually you almost had me until your final comment. To say Porsches 3.6 litre aircooled engine (which has been a platform for club racing all around the world) was a "cheap lame duck" actually ruins your credibility. If you would like to re-post your comments on the 993/964 boards - I and a bunch others would love to take you task on that comment over there.....
Hi Macca,

hey..with my word "cheap lame duck" - I was a bit provocative..your are correct, the new 991 GT3 engine is really new..whereas the 996 GT3 engine wasnt really new...as I said...mostly it was put together by already existing parts..fully correct what you say.

But in no way from engine point of view, the 993 RS engine holds up to a 996 GT3 engine. The 993 RS engine was an aircooled one..how many air cooled engines were there in a a GT1, 962, 959 etc..? Does the 993 RS also have titatnium rods ? (im not sure about that?) Nikasil, plasma nitrated crankcase etc.? thats what I mean. The 993 RS is much more beautiful than the 996 GT3..thats clear..I wish they had the 993 RS with the 996 GT3 engine....but remember that in 1993/94/95..the 993 engines in nornmal aspiration were already runnimg at their max. Only with turbocharging you could get (considerably) more power out of the 993..
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:57 AM
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Thanks Bill. Very interesting read.

Id also like to say from experience that the 964RS and 993RS were also very very close mechanically to the early Cup cars of the same model. Infact in 1993 the 964 Cup car wasnt very different than the 964RS road car at all. Over the years with the RSR versions that similarity started to deviate considerably (areo packages, ECUs etc).

Interestingly they all used the same block and similar heads (until the 3.8s came along). Main differences between base road cars and Cup cars back then was cams, strengthened bottom end with more bearings etc and some small motronics ecu tweaks.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill_C4S View Post
Ensuing from a Pistonheads thread on the "Specialness" of the 996.1 GT3, the ensuing post is from Fioran0, ....makes for some interesting comparisons between the GT3 cup and the road going iterations. Bolding is my emphasis.

Seemed apropo for this discussion.

"the technical aspect relating to this perception of "special" is one thats of far more interest to me atleast. while the later cars do without question supply better stats and carry upgrades, just as one would expect, this imho tells far less than the full picture. its interesting to note that even as early as the 996.2 GT3 one can identify the creep of cost cutting/cost awareness and dilution being introduced, something thats increased with each subsequent model.
the overall capabilities have increased incrementally but importantly and tellingly begin to fall far short of what porsche could actually have and indeed were achieving with the platform. this is the crucial point.

the differences between a customer racing car (996 cup) and a mk1 GT3 of the same year is incredibly small (ignoring the obvious mandatory for racing items such as fire system, full cage, no interior etc) meaning the GT3 they chose to bring to the road user was very very close to the top of its game at that time. fast forward to the 996.2 GT3 (and even RS) and compare this to a 2004 996 Cup and already things have opened up tremendously. the list of parts on the Cup that are different to the road car is extensive and many of them could have been included on the GT3 if porsche had wanted to (as shown by the many folks adding them to their own cars which still see street useage). over and above this the 996.2 gets E-gas and a far more safety concerned ABS system. while the former varies in impact upon the driver (generally spreading out around the annoying category but definitely is not a positive thing) the latter is much less "fun" if you track your car or drive hard, both impinge upon the driving aspect of the car.

by the time of the 997 the gap is even larger still, a look around a 997 cup and a comparable year GT3 leaves you wondering if they are even the same car, while the GT3 sees a further addition of features that impact the drivers control and mechanical parts that arent up to the job of anything more than road use (cheap diffs for starters).

by the time of the 997(.2 ed.), porsche had long stopped building cars for track users, though happily continued to sell cars based off the back of this perception and subsequent credibility. this wasnt, and isnt where the bulk of their new car sales come from. they arent in the business of making cars that grind and graunch and that see Porsche plummet down the satisfaction and reliability surveys.
ive long known this, and actually had a chat with some folks from the mothership a few weeks ago about this very point where they were very open about it all.

this doesnt make the later cars crap and it certainly doesnt make the earlier cars superior but it does mean that there hasnt been since, and will never be again another road going porsche like the 996 GT3 mk1 and this makes it very special."

Original thread here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...800.51696&nmt=
Thanks..Bill..there is some truth in that..996.1 GT3 is probably the most reliable of all..whereas the 4.0 would be the least reliable one..
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:07 AM
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Porsche.collector. I agree now with what you say. You are right that the GT3 engine was engineered for a motorsports future, whereas the 993RS engine was just the road cars engine with bigger heads and a slightly wilder cam. Its interesting that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s Porsches motorsports product was so similar to their base road cars. Only since the 996 has there been a huge deviation between road cars and motorsport cars.

My personal view is that Porsche is about to undergo a huge change again in the allignment of technologies. Either we will see the 2014 RSR sporting the 991 GT3 derived engine and the GT3 and Cup cars becoming much more alike again or alternatively we are at the cross roads of Porsches consumer offerings (even GT3 and GT3RS) now going down an entirely separate road of development from the Cup/RSR cars.

I pray its the former but unfortunately my gut feel is its the later. Even the 991 GT3RS therefore becomes just a fast road product and motorsports development may start to change stance by 2016 to be 960, 918 aligned.

The one glint of hope is the comment a Porsche engineer made when he discussed the new 991 GT3 in a leak before Geneva. You may have seen the thread its the longest one on the new 991 GT3 board. Its the one where we learned most about the car a week or two before the world saw it. Virtually everything that was reported in that leak came true. He said it was basically a completely new design and would be the basis for the new motorsport engine. You probably recall the thread it was the first posting with pictures of the car in black with the final spoiler design.

I think Porsche are intentionally keeping quiet and just releasing details of the 991 GT3 bit by bit. We actually know very little really about the car right now.....
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:14 AM
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Hi Macca,

Yes agree..just two side notes:

1) In the 70s already Porsches engines for racing started deviating from the normal ones..the engines of the 935-936 etc already have almost nothing in common with the 930..so - the closest link between racing and road car was the 996-997 GTE era..if you owned a 930 in the 80s..you couldnt say..look I own a car which is racing also..the basis of the engine block was the same..but that was about it

2) 991 RSR - I bet you $1 that it will use the 997 GT3 RSR engine..

all the best,
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:44 AM
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Hi Porsche.Collector

I guess you are right with international racing but I was thinking more at a club racing and national racing level where many of the competitors were racing modified road 911s between the 1973RS and the 1992 964RS. There was a 20 year gap there where if you wanted to race (and you werent a millionaire) you took a road car and stripped it out and strengthened it up. Even Porsche was going it in the 80s for Paris to Dakar until the 956 came along.

On your second point Ill bet you that $1 and raise you $1. Porsche will not use the Mezger engine beyond 2013 for the RSR is the belief I have. Anyway its a fun wager that costs us little to be wrong, but I think the Mezger at 4 litres and 500 bhp has come to the end of its development whereas the new GT3 style engine is only finding its legs at 3.8l and 500 bhp.

At this stage its anyones guess I suppose...
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:52 AM
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The 991 GT3 is the new 996.1 GT3!
It is certainly not.


Best,
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:07 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong but I remember the 996 almost bringing Porsche to its knees. I don't think you can compare an era that spelled doom and gloom for this glorious brand with the powerhouse it has become now. 66 allocations to all of Canada is the # I am hearing and already 15+ deposits from the dealership I do business with I am sure they won't have any problems selling like hot cakes.

Whether we like it or not this GT3 is not the same as old but its probably designed to bring in a whole new segment of buyer to the Porsche brand. While I am no expert I think they should have at minimum appealed to the long dedicated customer and released a MT option for this generation as a transition. I mean for goodness sakes BMW did it for my luxury liner boat the M5 and I am sure they sell a lot less of them then they would the GT3 in MT.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Hi Porsche.Collector

I guess you are right with international racing but I was thinking more at a club racing and national racing level where many of the competitors were racing modified road 911s between the 1973RS and the 1992 964RS. There was a 20 year gap there where if you wanted to race (and you werent a millionaire) you took a road car and stripped it out and strengthened it up. Even Porsche was going it in the 80s for Paris to Dakar until the 956 came along.

On your second point Ill bet you that $1 and raise you $1. Porsche will not use the Mezger engine beyond 2013 for the RSR is the belief I have. Anyway its a fun wager that costs us little to be wrong, but I think the Mezger at 4 litres and 500 bhp has come to the end of its development whereas the new GT3 style engine is only finding its legs at 3.8l and 500 bhp.

At this stage its anyones guess I suppose...
Yes,I agree with this point.
I've posted in another thread a detailed technical personal view of the old Mezger vs the new DFI. There simply wasn't '' more '' you could get out of a NA Mezger passed the 4.0 L,yet there is immense power potential to be obtained out of the NA high revving 3.8 L DFI.
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