MAJOR FAIL! No Sport Bucket Set Option (6 point harness seats) WOW!
03-07-2013, 11:10 PM
#16
03-07-2013, 11:19 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
03-07-2013, 11:30 PM
#18
Race Director
I don't think there is any mystery here. New GT3 is just an upgraded Carrera S with a upgraded Carrera S 9A1 engine and upgraded Carrera S PDK. Since it no longer has anything in common with the race cars, why does it need race oriented seats? It is not just the seats that are a fail, it is the entire car.
This isn't about Porsche thinking the car isn't worth of race ready seats, it's a bureaucratic/marketing decision on the part of Porsche's US distributor, IMO. A stupid decision, without doubt, but not an indictment of the car.
03-07-2013, 11:32 PM
#19
Race Director
Thread Starter
03-07-2013, 11:39 PM
#20
Nonsense. That's clearly not the issue. If it were, Porsche wouldn't be offering the Sport Buckets in any market. In fact, however, the only market where they are not available (so far) is the US. This leads me to believe that it's not Porsche per se who has made this decision, but PCNA. NHTSA/DOT certification is no doubt required for the seats in the new 991/981 chassis to sell them in the US, which means spending money, and probably crash testing a few cars. PCNA has informed PAG that Sport Buckets are desired by only a few customers and therefore it's not worth going through the certification process for this market.
This isn't about Porsche thinking the car isn't worth of race ready seats, it's a bureaucratic/marketing decision on the part of Porsche's US distributor, IMO. A stupid decision, without doubt, but not an indictment of the car.
This isn't about Porsche thinking the car isn't worth of race ready seats, it's a bureaucratic/marketing decision on the part of Porsche's US distributor, IMO. A stupid decision, without doubt, but not an indictment of the car.
"There is one thing that is beginning to concern me here. As many of you know, US dealers have never been big fans of the optional gt2-type 'sport bucket seats'. They claim it was hard to sell any Porsche on their lot that had them. They rarely ordered them on any gt3, Spyder or Cayman R bought on speculation for inventory (as opposed to a pre-ordered by an enthusiast customer). Dealers even object to having them offered at all by PCNA because, they figure, sooner or later (trades, lease returns, etc), all of these gt2 sport bucket Porsches will have to be resold via their dealer network! And it will make their work that much harder! The horror! So, could US dealers have secretly & successfully lobbied PCNA to NOT to offer the gt2 buckets on the 991 gt3? Certainly possible and indeed plausible!
Which gets me back to the ominous statement of FJones, who is extremely well connected at PCNA and a gt3 owner himself. His statement was "The option 'P03 - Sport Bucket Seats' will not be available for the US". If true, that is indeed very sad news. It means that PCNA is saving the gt2 type sport bucket for ONLY the RS in our market! That policy is doing a disservice to many prospective 991 gt3 customers in the US and shows a kind of hubris on the part of PCNA & its dealer network which is going to be hard to accept...or forgive in the long run!"
Saludos,
Eduardo
03-07-2013, 11:55 PM
#21
Race Director
Mike, that is correct. But it begs the question why. Here is my take, which I just posted in the main 991 gt3 thread:
"There is one thing that is beginning to concern me here. As many of you know, US dealers have never been big fans of the optional gt2-type 'sport bucket seats'. They claim it was hard to sell any Porsche on their lot that had them. They rarely ordered them on any gt3, Spyder or Cayman R bought on speculation for inventory (as opposed to a pre-ordered by an enthusiast customer). Dealers even object to having them offered at all by PCNA because, they figure, sooner or later (trades, lease returns, etc), all of these gt2 sport bucket Porsches will have to be resold via their dealer network! And it will make their work that much harder! The horror! So, could US dealers have secretly & successfully lobbied PCNA to NOT to offer the gt2 buckets on the 991 gt3? Certainly possible and indeed plausible!
Which gets me back to the ominous statement of FJones, who is extremely well connected at PCNA and a gt3 owner himself. His statement was "The option 'P03 - Sport Bucket Seats' will not be available for the US". If true, that is indeed very sad news. It means that PCNA is saving the gt2 type sport bucket for ONLY the RS in our market! That policy is doing a disservice to many prospective 991 gt3 customers in the US and shows a kind of hubris on the part of PCNA & its dealer network which is going to be hard to accept...or forgive in the long run!"
Saludos,
Eduardo
"There is one thing that is beginning to concern me here. As many of you know, US dealers have never been big fans of the optional gt2-type 'sport bucket seats'. They claim it was hard to sell any Porsche on their lot that had them. They rarely ordered them on any gt3, Spyder or Cayman R bought on speculation for inventory (as opposed to a pre-ordered by an enthusiast customer). Dealers even object to having them offered at all by PCNA because, they figure, sooner or later (trades, lease returns, etc), all of these gt2 sport bucket Porsches will have to be resold via their dealer network! And it will make their work that much harder! The horror! So, could US dealers have secretly & successfully lobbied PCNA to NOT to offer the gt2 buckets on the 991 gt3? Certainly possible and indeed plausible!
Which gets me back to the ominous statement of FJones, who is extremely well connected at PCNA and a gt3 owner himself. His statement was "The option 'P03 - Sport Bucket Seats' will not be available for the US". If true, that is indeed very sad news. It means that PCNA is saving the gt2 type sport bucket for ONLY the RS in our market! That policy is doing a disservice to many prospective 991 gt3 customers in the US and shows a kind of hubris on the part of PCNA & its dealer network which is going to be hard to accept...or forgive in the long run!"
Saludos,
Eduardo
03-08-2013, 12:14 AM
#22
^Thank Eduardo and Mike. BTW, Eduardo I do agree with your theory on the dealers pressuring the seats out of the N. American market because they made the cars unsaleable.
As has previously been mentioned by Eduardo and Mike, there are at least three tests which must be conducted that are relevant to the structure of the seats in the car (and by car, I mean 991 specifically):
Rigid Pole Side Impact
Side Impact Static
Side Impact Dynamic
It is also possible that the roof crush test must be done with all possible seating arrangements.
Feel free to look up the testing procedures here:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Vehicle+Safety/...rocedurePage=1
Porsche's market research department has spent more hours poring over this information than you probably have driving your car. If the demand was there to make it financially worth their while, you can bet the seats would be offered. They're in business to make money (just like everybody who can afford to buy their product), and they are building a car that most of their customers DO WANT. If that was not the case, the data would suggest otherwise and point them in a different direction.
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee guys, Porsche is responding to what the customer wants. You guys have nobody to blame but your fellow GT3 owners.
Please see above.
FWIW, I love the new GT3. Wretched PDK, luxury seating and all.
Blaming the gov while a gov funded US car company GM makes the exact seat the GT3 is missing?
Epic logic fail.
Porsche thinks very little of US drivers, I dont see why so many have their Porsche blinders on still. They sent us a 997.1 GT3 with no sunroof delete. Slap in the face. Sent us a 997.1 RS with no performance gain but bright colors and stickers and a lwfw. Body slam. Phoney gimmick center locks. Suplex.
The US is their biggest market so they are building a car they think most Americans want, comfy, safe feeling and will cover any mistakes they make on their way to barnes and noble. Maybe a 0-60 blast from a stoplight is the most they will drive the car.
This is a Volkswagen GT3. Porsche going the way of BMW.
Epic logic fail.
Porsche thinks very little of US drivers, I dont see why so many have their Porsche blinders on still. They sent us a 997.1 GT3 with no sunroof delete. Slap in the face. Sent us a 997.1 RS with no performance gain but bright colors and stickers and a lwfw. Body slam. Phoney gimmick center locks. Suplex.
The US is their biggest market so they are building a car they think most Americans want, comfy, safe feeling and will cover any mistakes they make on their way to barnes and noble. Maybe a 0-60 blast from a stoplight is the most they will drive the car.
This is a Volkswagen GT3. Porsche going the way of BMW.
Rigid Pole Side Impact
Side Impact Static
Side Impact Dynamic
It is also possible that the roof crush test must be done with all possible seating arrangements.
Feel free to look up the testing procedures here:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Vehicle+Safety/...rocedurePage=1
Porsche's market research department has spent more hours poring over this information than you probably have driving your car. If the demand was there to make it financially worth their while, you can bet the seats would be offered. They're in business to make money (just like everybody who can afford to buy their product), and they are building a car that most of their customers DO WANT. If that was not the case, the data would suggest otherwise and point them in a different direction.
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee guys, Porsche is responding to what the customer wants. You guys have nobody to blame but your fellow GT3 owners.
Please see above.
FWIW, I love the new GT3. Wretched PDK, luxury seating and all.
03-08-2013, 12:28 AM
#23
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I just recently called my insurance company (geico) about putting in aftermarket seats in my 7.1 gt3. The rep told me as long as the front airbag isn't disabled there would be no impact to my coverage because seat side airbags aren't federally mandated. I specifically asked if I would be denied any claims relating to injury and the rep said there would be no issues. With that said, I've decided that the only seats I would upgrade to are the GT2 buckets since my car is used primarily as a DD.
03-08-2013, 01:24 AM
#25
Porsche's market research department has spent more hours poring over this information than you probably have driving your car. If the demand was there to make it financially worth their while, you can bet the seats would be offered. They're in business to make money (just like everybody who can afford to buy their product), and they are building a car that most of their customers DO WANT. If that was not the case, the data would suggest otherwise and point them in a different direction.
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee guys, Porsche is responding to what the customer wants. You guys have nobody to blame but your fellow GT3 owners.
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee guys, Porsche is responding to what the customer wants. You guys have nobody to blame but your fellow GT3 owners.
03-08-2013, 01:33 AM
#26
Drifting
Is this absolutely definitive?
03-08-2013, 01:43 AM
#27
03-08-2013, 01:55 AM
#28
Race Director
Thread Starter
I just recently called my insurance company (geico) about putting in aftermarket seats in my 7.1 gt3. The rep told me as long as the front airbag isn't disabled there would be no impact to my coverage because seat side airbags aren't federally mandated. I specifically asked if I would be denied any claims relating to injury and the rep said there would be no issues. With that said, I've decided that the only seats I would upgrade to are the GT2 buckets since my car is used primarily as a DD.
997.2 cars have this feature with the air bag system as a stander part of the factory air bag system. .1 and .2 cars difference so if you get GT2 Sport Buckets for your .1 GT3 they will fit but there is nothing to plug the side impact air bags inside the seat into. If I had a .1 car I would get some Sparco or Recaro's myself.
03-08-2013, 04:02 AM
#30
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I think the points above accurately summarise why certain items don't get offered in the US, it's a combination of what the importer PCNA desires as influenced by dealers and also the cost/benefit of trying to get certain items past the US DOT rules.
Porsche builds a global car and then lets each country choose what/how they want it specced. The US has always been a big issue in models, hence why the 964RS, 993RS etc were never offered and the 964 RS America was built which is basically not an RS.
Comparisons with Corvette are meaningless, since Corvette is a product selling 30,000+ in good years, almost all in the USA. the 911 sells about 10,000 in the US in a good year, but in terms of GT3s, they're not offered every year and when they do sell under a 1,000 I'd guess. The economics on that simply don't justify many decisions on parts/testing etc, especially if the take-up is low due to many customers/dealers not wanting buckets.
Personally I never understood even making GT3s available without buckets. If you don't want buckets then the GT3 is not the car for you, it's about being a scalpel through corners and on track. For that you need buckets. If you don't wish to drive this car like that then GTS or Turbo is the better car for you. Here in the UK GT3s that have been built without buckets are harder to sell and worth less.
Porsche builds a global car and then lets each country choose what/how they want it specced. The US has always been a big issue in models, hence why the 964RS, 993RS etc were never offered and the 964 RS America was built which is basically not an RS.
Comparisons with Corvette are meaningless, since Corvette is a product selling 30,000+ in good years, almost all in the USA. the 911 sells about 10,000 in the US in a good year, but in terms of GT3s, they're not offered every year and when they do sell under a 1,000 I'd guess. The economics on that simply don't justify many decisions on parts/testing etc, especially if the take-up is low due to many customers/dealers not wanting buckets.
Personally I never understood even making GT3s available without buckets. If you don't want buckets then the GT3 is not the car for you, it's about being a scalpel through corners and on track. For that you need buckets. If you don't wish to drive this car like that then GTS or Turbo is the better car for you. Here in the UK GT3s that have been built without buckets are harder to sell and worth less.