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Nizer 03-06-2013 10:06 AM

Andreas Preuninger Car Interview
 
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...as-Preuninger/

CAR interviews 'Mr GT3' Andreas Preuninger
By Ben Pulman, 06 March 2013 07:00


The latest Porsche 911 GT3 boasts an all-new 469bhp 3.8-litre flat-six and is quicker than the legendary GT3 RS 4.0, but fans of this hardcore icon have voiced their concern over its new dual-clutch PDK gearbox and its steering (both the electric rack inherited from the 991-generation Carrera, and the new rear-axle steering).

Ahead of the 911 GT3's unveil at the 2013 Geneva show this week, CAR had exclusive access to the car, and to the man who headed the team that engineered it: Porsche's head of GT series production Andreas Preuninger.

The controversial new Porsche 911 GT3

Preuninger built the first 996 GT3, and has been doing his job for the past 12 years. We asked him all about the new GT3, including those controversial issues. Here are his answers...

Andreas Preuninger on the philosophy of the new GT3…

'The GT3 has become so important for Porsche – we have to offer a GT3 variant with every new 911. It's been a niche in the past, but not anymore, especially because so many competitors are pushing into the sector. The bandwidth in which the new car is useable is incredible: it's a brilliant daily drive, but it's also got an even more sporting edged biased towards track capability.'

On the death of the motorsport-derived ‘Mezger’ engine…

'The 4.0-litre RS with the 'Mezger' engine was not in our long-term planning, but a skunkworks project. The original plan was for the last Mezger engine to feature in the 3.8 RS and GT2 RS, but we decided to make the 4.0 RS, as one last goodbye, with all the things we learnt from the GT2 RS. It’s definitely the last time we will use that engine in a road car – I promised everyone and I will be true to my word.'

On the new engine…

'There’s a lot of doubt, in the almost devout community of GT3 buyers. It’s not something out of the 911 Carrera with a bigger camshaft: the only parts shared with the 991 Carrera S engine are the casting of the crankcase and the bolts for the cylinder head. Full stop. That’s it. There’s a new crank, titanium con-rods, forged aluminium pistons, and a completely new cylinder head with a revolutionary valvetrain that you won’t find in any other street-legal car – there are no tappets, instead we use rocker arms like in a motorcycle so the weight goes down dramatically. The new engine is around 25kg lighter than the Mezger. And that gives us room for the extra rpms…

'We were very, very aware that this engine needs to have the same character, the same amount of character, the same specialness as the Mezger had. We have absolutely made it: the new engine has the same impatient idle, this ‘Come on, go!’ attitude and it revs even higher – to 9000rpm. You wouldn’t believe the difference between 8500rpm and 9000rpm – it’s only a small difference numerically, but when you’re in the car the experience is a whole new world. The way the engine goes to the redline, the sounds the engine makes is so mechanically crisp and emotional that it brings a totally new personality to the GT3.

'We decided to make an emotional link to the GT3 RS 4.0, the king of the GT3s, so the new GT3 has the same specific output: 123bhp/litre. We’re on par, but I would say 469bhp is conservative. I like ‘low-balling’ with GT3s – we could say 500bhp and that would be perfectly homologatable, but I’d rather say 469bhp and have the GT3 beat all the 550bhp cars. This is more Porsche.'

On the new dual-clutch PDK gearbox…

'I’ve being doing this job for 12 years, I made the first GT3, and everybody knows I’m a very puristic driver. I want the car to be analogue, I want maximum driver involvement. That’s why we chose not to use a PDK ‘box until now – the involvement was not at the point where it should be for the GT3. The weight was another issue, too. So this time, for the first time, we decided to try out the PDK gearbox in parallel with the manual, and really feel what the difference was like. And feel is very important, for customers and myself – a very, very fast car where you don’t have any sensations isn’t worth the money. And coming from the other side we are under pressure from the competition, so I won’t sacrifice any performance just because someone wants to shift with a manual.

'The PDK gearbox is about 30kg heavier than the manual in the 997, and we have saved 25kg from the engine, so I said we should try it. The ‘box itself isn’t from the Carrera: there’s seven driving gears, not six plus overdrive, so you reach the top speed in seventh, And the programmes and hardware are totally different. The upshifts are beyond comparison on the market – less than 100ms – and it’s so much fun to use it: the sensation you get when you drive the car is like having a sequential race gearbox, not a flappy paddle system.

'We added a ‘Hooligan mode’ so you can do donuts in the car. Or, let’s say you have a 2nd gear curve, it’s wet, there’s nobody around and you wanted to drift. How do you do that in the manual? You dip the clutch and press the throttle to get the car around. That’s not possible in a normal automatic, but it is in the GT3: if you pull both paddles it engages neutral so you can 'clutch kick' the GT3. Same for race starts – you can dial up more wheelspin than the computer will give you. This was a major programme with the gearbox development to ensure you could play around with the PDK.'

On when the manual gearbox was ruled out…

'We ruled out the manual gearbox in back to-back comparisons last summer. On every shift with the PDK is more emotional, because for the first time when you shift at 9000rpm there’s a bham! in the exhaust, and this gives you goosebumps. It blips the throttle on the downshifts, and on a road you don’t know you can go very fast with both hands on the wheel. And on a race track the PDK gains three-quarters of a car length with every shift, so after a long straight you’re ahead of the other car and can turn-in in front of him. It just works. This is the big news.

'There’s no chance of a manual. We don’t want to offer too many options on our GT cars. And if you’ve got a manual and a PDK you’ve got to have different set-ups for the suspension, the aero, the tyres, everything. We are a small team and can only concentrate on one car.'

On the GT3’s new electric steering…

'The steering was a challenge, as we’re changing to the electromechanical system. I think we had a benchmark system in the last GT3, and it was my target to get it as least as good as that system. It was not easy as the GT3 driver needs to feel all the feedback the tyres give him, all the forces in the steering rods, in all conditions, but we made a huge effort to get it exactly the way it was in the last car. I promise no one will notice that it is not the steering we had in the GT3 RS 4.0. I’m 100% sure of that. The filters are gone!'

On active rear-wheel steering…

'I was shying away from it. I believed it was not puristic enough. But we tried it out and it helps so much. And you don’t notice it because it’s simply a steering rod system, not some electronic gizmo. We can change the angle of the rear wheels by 1.5 degrees, which doesn’t sound like much but the effect is tremendous. I couldn’t believe how much better the agility of the car and the turn-in capability are with the system. I did a back-to-back test, in one car with the system able to be turned off by a switch, and couldn’t believe the difference. And on track, the tyres last longer, so you are more consistent.

'The steering rods add 5-6kg, plus the system draws more current so yo need a bigger battery, but back-to-back with a car with a lightweight battery, no rear-steer and a manual gearbox (and in that configuration the car is lighter than a 997 GT3) this new GT3 is so much more confidence inspiring. And faster, no matter where you drive it. It simply didn’t make sense not to use all these systems to take on all the other competitors out there.'

What do you think of Andreas Preuninger's comments? There's never been a bad GT3, but will the new one be any good? Click 'Add your comment' below and let us know what you think...


What do I think? The new heavier, automatic transmission GT3, as brought to you by Porsche Sales and Accounting...

jumper5836 03-06-2013 10:23 AM


On when the manual gearbox was ruled out…

'We ruled out the manual gearbox in back to-back comparisons last summer. On every shift with the PDK is more emotional, because for the first time when you shift at 9000rpm there’s a bham! in the exhaust, and this gives you goosebumps. It blips the throttle on the downshifts, and on a road you don’t know you can go very fast with both hands on the wheel. And on a race track the PDK gains three-quarters of a car length with every shift, so after a long straight you’re ahead of the other car and can turn-in in front of him. It just works. This is the big news.

'There’s no chance of a manual. We don’t want to offer too many options on our GT cars. And if you’ve got a manual and a PDK you’ve got to have different set-ups for the suspension, the aero, the tyres, everything. We are a small team and can only concentrate on one car.'
Disappointing. Was looking forward to owning one of these some day but it looks like my buck stops with a 997.

I don't give a flying crap that it gains on a long straight and I get more goose bumps doing it myself. I don't get goose bumps watching it happen on tv, in the passengers seat or with two hands on the wheel. Complete utter garbage.

Bill_C4S 03-06-2013 10:37 AM

Say what you will AP comes across as an enthusiast.

Am impressed with the direction the 991 GT3 has taken...look forward to whether this (premature?) confidence is validated by the only measure that really matters...driving the damn thing.

-eztrader- 03-06-2013 10:41 AM

"""'The steering was a challenge, as we’re changing to the electromechanical system. I think we had a benchmark system in the last GT3, and it was my target to get it as least as good as that system. """"

this sounds crazy to me - - -why change if the target is to hopefully be "as good" as the old version?

Arth 03-06-2013 10:45 AM

Im very impressed! let's see how it does once we drive it :)

kosmo 03-06-2013 10:48 AM


Originally Posted by jumper5836 (Post 10277792)
Disappointing. Was looking forward to owning one of these some day but it looks like my buck stops with a 997.

I don't give a flying crap that it gains on a long straight and I get more goose bumps doing it myself. I don't get goose bumps watching it happen on tv, in the passengers seat or with two hands on the wheel. Complete utter garbage.

yeah

911Jetta 03-06-2013 10:51 AM


Originally Posted by Bill_C4S (Post 10277823)
Say what you will AP comes across as an enthusiast.

Am impressed with the direction the 991 GT3 has taken...look forward to whether this (premature?) confidence is validated by the only measure that really matters...driving the damn thing.

+2. I'm really proud of what they've done. A masterpiece!

This car is in a class all by itself now... this is the end of GT3 vs. M3 comparisons. I don't care haw much torque a twin-T. M4 has...I'll take 9,000 RPM any day!

Love this quote from above...

...I would say 469bhp is conservative. I like ‘low-balling’ with GT3s – we could say 500bhp and that would be perfectly homologatable, but I’d rather say 469bhp and have the GT3 beat all the 550bhp cars. This is more Porsche.'

kosmo 03-06-2013 11:20 AM

[QUOTE=911Jetta;10277864]This car is in a class all by itself now... this is the end of GT3 vs. M3 comparisons. I don't care haw much torque a twin-T. M4 has...I'll take 9,000 RPM any day!QUOTE]

we'll see on the race circuits.

Veloce Raptor 03-06-2013 11:38 AM


Originally Posted by jumper5836 (Post 10277792)
Disappointing. Was looking forward to owning one of these some day but it looks like my buck stops with a 997.

I don't give a flying crap that it gains on a long straight and I get more goose bumps doing it myself. I don't get goose bumps watching it happen on tv, in the passengers seat or with two hands on the wheel. Complete utter garbage.

+1


Originally Posted by Bill_C4S (Post 10277823)
Say what you will AP comes across as an enthusiast.

Respectfully disagree. He comes across as the marketing guy he is, just as he did when he extolled the virtues of the 997.2 faux centerlocks...



Originally Posted by -eztrader- (Post 10277837)
"""'The steering was a challenge, as we’re changing to the electromechanical system. I think we had a benchmark system in the last GT3, and it was my target to get it as least as good as that system. """"

this sounds crazy to me - - -why change if the target is to hopefully be "as good" as the old version?

+2

BBMGT3 03-06-2013 12:24 PM

I think they changed the steering because it was a quick win for emissions. To make it as good as the old one was the target

I drove a Scuderia today. There is such a thing as a good paddle shift, it was amazing. PDK in 991S not so much, but maybe the GT3 yes? Will have to wait and see. 7 speed close ratio 9k rpm might be a winner you know...

Rear steer and PTV remain oddballs. If the rear steer was a purely mechanical system (somehow), I could live with it. But a system that draws current, to the extent that it needs a bigger-than-stock battery I'm not so sure. As for PTV... I really don't get it. Why on EARTH would I want something that applied the brakes under power, to help me "turn" the car. I can just do the job right at the apex in the first place... sounds like a fancy way of saying PSM to me. Net effect is the same (fried brakes). I would imagine less ultimate exit speed too... maybe (apex speed is higher I guess if you haven't turned the car enough?)

I can't accept the weight of the car... I don't care that it has PDK, bigger brakes / bodywork etc. At least match the bloody 991S. Disgraceful.

Joe S. 03-06-2013 01:11 PM

"bandwidth" "niche" and he's not in marketing? lol

Mike in CA 03-06-2013 03:56 PM


Originally Posted by Bill_C4S (Post 10277823)
Say what you will AP comes across as an enthusiast.

Am impressed with the direction the 991 GT3 has taken...look forward to whether this (premature?) confidence is validated by the only measure that really matters...driving the damn thing.

+3 Driving the damn thing indeed. Not a single other comment, in any of these threads, about lack of involvement, feel, or any other subjective opinion on the car's road or track worthiness is worth squat until the car has been driven by those voicing the opinions. Absent that experience, it's all uninformed, speculative, repetitous, self-serving hot air.

bmwtye 03-06-2013 04:36 PM

Heres the video interview


paver 03-06-2013 06:31 PM


Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10278850)
+3 Driving the damn thing indeed. Not a single other comment, in any of these threads, about lack of involvement, feel, or any other subjective opinion on the car's road or track worthiness is worth squat until the car has been driven by those voicing the opinions. Absent that experience, it's all uninformed, speculative, repetitous, self-serving hot air.

Maybe you're right concerning the negative comments about the feel. But regarding track worthiness, buy one and then have them impose the 4200 mi replacement schedule for CL hubs/bearings, etc after you have owned it for a couple of years. Things are a lot less glossy when that happens.

CL's-a complicated system that has not proven positive. It's possible the rear wheel steer thing could ultimately fall into that category too. It's reasonable to cast doubts on the new car's track worthiness.

Slowekistan 03-06-2013 08:07 PM

I am sure if it was up to Mr. Preuninger, he would force the entire planet to mass produce the Mezger, but even he must work within certain corporate parameters and within those he is allowed to work his magic.

The PDK-only is a false paradigm shift to cash-in on the GT3 brand. Imagine the same engine and chassis with 6MT minus a good 120kg (PDK, RWsteering, hefty console) - would it be really slower?

aussie jimmy 03-06-2013 08:22 PM

i'm emotional

aussie jimmy 03-06-2013 08:27 PM

991 gt3 - poetry in emotion.

maybe i can get a job in advertising?

pcar964 03-06-2013 09:12 PM

haha so what he said is basically "I'm an enthusiast... but we had to ditch the analog in favor of gizmos because all our competitors are doing it."

axhoaxho 03-06-2013 09:41 PM

As an interview, Andreas Preuninger delivered it very well and smoothly. A little more diplomatic and less enthuse than he used to be years ago, but wouldn't blame him.

Couldn't help but sense a lot of corporate pressure on him though... seems the car was what VW wanted him to build instead of what he really wanted.

kosmo 03-06-2013 09:47 PM


Originally Posted by pcar964 (Post 10279909)
haha so what he said is basically "I'm an enthusiast... but we had to ditch the analog in favor of gizmos because all our competitors are doing it."

Yeah. AP is just waiting for his VW stock to vest then hes outta there.
:surr:

brake dust 03-06-2013 09:59 PM

Still find it odd not to have the new engine in the Cup car? The Carerra Cup and Super Cup are one make series with sprint races. What better venue to test a new engine. Getting the feeling that the new engine won't be utilized in Motorsport. Either the 991 RS gets a different engine or maybe the end of the era for the 911 in GT racing and on to a mid engine 918?

Petevb 03-06-2013 10:01 PM

The engine tentatively looks like a good step forward. I understand they will use it in Cup cars starting next year, which will be the definitive reliability test, but based on the numbers so far it looks quite interesting with clear room left for future expansion.

Based on Preuninger's comment that weight is down "around 25 kg" we can give the engine a preliminary improvement of 21% over the last base GT3. This looks like the biggest improvement in GT3 history, as one would expect, and for a 475 hp car allows the engine weight to be reduced by over 100 lbs vs the 997.2 power to weight standard. Put another way, it looks like the new motor has gained about 115 hp (32%) and lost 90 lbs (15%) vs the first GT3 14 years ago- that's progress for you.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8229/8...920717_b_d.jpg

The valvetrain also sounds very interesting from an engine potential point of view. If they have succeeded in allowing removing the valvetrain as the RPM limitation that would be a major advance. The bottom end has a fairly high mean piston speed of 23.3 meters per second, but Audi has already proven that over 26 meters per second is possible in a production car. If the top end allows it, that might suggest that either an even higher peak RPM (up to 10k?) or perhaps more likely a larger displacement through stroking (to 4.0 seems achievable, 4.2 on the very outside).

I suspect Porsche might offer a stripped down, manual only, no rear-steer car at some point, perhaps called something other than the GT3. However I suspect that if they do, there will unfortunately not be very many takers once the hard numbers are understood. I love a manual transmission, but the era is unfortunately coming to a close. The lack of a manual and sheer size (not weight) of the new GT3 are the hardest pills for me to swallow, however- I think the rear-steer and non-metzger engine will prove themselves will come to be accepted.

Mike in CA 03-06-2013 10:10 PM


Originally Posted by paver (Post 10279444)
Maybe you're right concerning the negative comments about the feel. But regarding track worthiness, buy one and then have them impose the 4200 mi replacement schedule for CL hubs/bearings, etc after you have owned it for a couple of years. Things are a lot less glossy when that happens.

CL's-a complicated system that has not proven positive. It's possible the rear wheel steer thing could ultimately fall into that category too. It's reasonable to cast doubts on the new car's track worthiness.

We don't know what changes have been made to the CL's, just that they've been "optomised", whatever that means. Also, the rear wheel steering is described as a simple steering rod linkage, not a complicated electronic "gizmo" so the "possible" problems are just that, possible. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of assumptions flying around out there with very little factual information to back them up, yet.

Mike in CA 03-06-2013 10:12 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10280063)
The engine tentatively looks like a good step forward. I understand they will use it in Cup cars starting next year, which will be the definitive reliability test, but based on the numbers so far it looks quite interesting with clear room left for future expansion.

Based on Preuninger's comment that weight is down "around 25 kg" we can give the engine a preliminary improvement of 21% over the last base GT3. This looks like the biggest improvement in GT3 history, as one would expect, and for a 475 hp car allows the engine weight to be reduced by over 100 lbs vs the 997.2 power to weight standard. Put another way, it looks like the new motor has gained about 115 hp (32%) and lost 90 lbs (15%) vs the first GT3 14 years ago- that's progress for you.

The valvetrain also sounds very interesting from an engine potential point of view. If they have succeeded in allowing removing the valvetrain as the RPM limitation that would be a major advance. The bottom end has a fairly high mean piston speed of 23.3 meters per second, but Audi has already proven that over 26 meters per second is possible in a production car. If the top end allows it, that might suggest that either an even higher peak RPM (up to 10k?) or perhaps more likely a larger displacement through stroking (to 4.0 seems achievable, 4.2 on the very outside).

I suspect Porsche might offer a stripped down, manual only, no rear-steer car at some point, perhaps called something other than the GT3. However I suspect that if they do, there will unfortunately not be very many takers once the hard numbers are understood. I love a manual transmission, but the era is unfortunately coming to a close. The lack of a manual and sheer size (not weight) of the new GT3 are the hardest pills for me to swallow, however- I think the rear-steer and non-metzger engine will prove themselves will come to be accepted.

What I also find interesting is AP's comment that they are being very conservative with the HP numbers, and that if they said the engine had 500HP they would be very comfortable with that number for homologation puposes.

Guest89 03-06-2013 10:28 PM


Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10280089)
We don't know what changes have been made to the CL's, just that they've been "optomised", whatever that means. Also, the rear wheel steering is described as a simple steering rod linkage, not a complicated electronic "gizmo" so the "possible" problems are just that, possible. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of assumptions flying around out there with very little factual information to back them up, yet.

And yet it draws so much current that it prevented use of the old lightweight battery...? I think he's being obtuse.

jumper5836 03-06-2013 11:37 PM

Yeah or neigh

Andreas Preuninger: PDK and Paddles ( what he said at the Gen 2 RS Launch in 2010 )
no heavy, flappy paddle gearbox (Preuninger: "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging")
Source Top Gear


But Preuninger didn't burden us with the technicalities. Instead he said, "First, the PDK weighs 66 pounds. Second, PDK does not have a clutch you can control, and if you want to do really big drifts, sometimes you need a clutch."

Then he said, "The manual gearbox in the GT3 is the best match for the purist."
Source Porsche 911 GT3 First Drive Video. | October 01, 2009 | Edmunds

Mike in CA 03-06-2013 11:49 PM


Originally Posted by Guest89 (Post 10280168)
And yet it draws so much current that it prevented use of the old lightweight battery...? I think he's being obtuse.

Obviously there must be electric motors which draw current to operate the RWS control rods, and some level of programming which correlates steering wheel movement and RWS activity. That doesn't necessarily mean, though, that the movement of RWS is programmed per se, nor does it mean that the system can't be robust enough for the track which was the original point we were discussing.

Veloce Raptor 03-07-2013 09:08 AM

..

Tacet-Conundrum 03-09-2013 01:39 PM

I've like many others have been.waiting for this day. And I figured, just like many others again, that there would be tonnes of butthurt individuals out there if the 3 had no manual transmission. Alas, that day has come.

I dunno, i like flappy paddles and am grateful that they are finally a reality. That comes from my halcion high school days playing Super Monico GP in the arcades.

And Im also confused about going to electronic steering? Makes good sense for a front engine layout where it would be beneficial to.eliminate the steering assembly from around the engine.

Mike in CA 03-09-2013 02:18 PM


Originally Posted by Tacet-Conundrum (Post 10287451)
I've like many others have been.waiting for this day. And I figured, just like many others again, that there would be tonnes of butthurt individuals out there if the 3 had no manual transmission. Alas, that day has come.

I dunno, i like flappy paddles and am grateful that they are finally a reality. That comes from my halcion high school days playing Super Monico GP in the arcades.

And Im also confused about going to electronic steering? Makes good sense for a front engine layout where it would be beneficial to.eliminate the steering assembly from around the engine.

The steering assembly has not been eliminated. There is still a mechanical connection, with conventional steering linkages and a steering rack all the way from the steering wheel to the front hubs. The difference is that there is now an electric motor integral with the steering rack that provides power assist instead of the previous hydraulic system. This eliminates all of the hydraulic lines, hydraulic fluid, and the parasitic hydraulic pump running off of the engine. Supposedly the software controlling the electric assist has been completely redone for the GT3 and the claim is that steering feel is as good as the previous system. TBD.

Slowekistan 03-09-2013 03:30 PM


Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10287512)
The steering assembly has not been eliminated. There is still a mechanical connection, with conventional steering linkages and a steering rack all the way from the steering wheel to the front hubs. The difference is that there is now an electric motor integral with the steering rack that provides power assist instead of the previous hydraulic system. This eliminates all of the hydraulic lines, hydraulic fluid, and the parasitic hydraulic pump running off of the engine. Supposedly the software controlling the electric assist has been completely redone for the GT3 and the claim is that steering feel is as good as the previous system. TBD.

+1

Thank you.

Ahmet 03-09-2013 05:55 PM

I'm surprised electric power steering assist didn't come sooner to the 911 considering that the benefits of removing the power steering rack and the hydraulic lines running to the front of the car seem the greatest with a rear engine layout.

speed21 03-09-2013 07:36 PM


Originally Posted by jumper5836 (Post 10280390)
Yeah or neigh

Andreas Preuninger: PDK and Paddles ( what he said at the Gen 2 RS Launch in 2010 )
no heavy, flappy paddle gearbox (Preuninger: "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging")
Source Top Gear


But Preuninger didn't burden us with the technicalities. Instead he said, "First, the PDK weighs 66 pounds. Second, PDK does not have a clutch you can control, and if you want to do really big drifts, sometimes you need a clutch."

Then he said, "The manual gearbox in the GT3 is the best match for the purist."
Source Porsche 911 GT3 First Drive Video. | October 01, 2009 | Edmunds

Respectfully not directing this entirely at you but don't forget this is 2013, not 2009 or 2010. Statements made in times gone will always be just statements made without having any first hand experience of todays latest GT3 technology. If AP says any prior GT3 is not better than the new 991GT3 car (RS 4.0 inc) then he ought to know. Although hang on...he's just being paid to say that right?:rolleyes:

This new car is gonna be an absolute cracker, but i suspect all the naysayers know that and are out there hammering away:to_order: on their :soapbox:box without even having driven the car. So typical.....:roflmao:

911rox 03-09-2013 08:05 PM

Interviews now with both Evo and Car yet nobody has questioned AP on the centrelocks, the dozen or so failures, the two recalls and the new, ridiculous maintenance schedule!!! Gee, I wonder why? Happy to bet a dollar or two that Porsche are placing a no-go zone on that discussion!!!

wurlie 03-10-2013 05:46 AM

And in EVO interview, when asked directly, Preuninger avioded answering why the 991 Cup has a Mezger engine...
It is just a disappointment, that's all. The old connection (however kool-aided (sic)) that there is a direct link between a GT3 and the racing cars is not there any more. There are a very few upset people, still it hurts.
And there is a point savy has been making about the marketing machine which puts Porsche at the similar level (of disappointing manipulation) with some other manufacturers with long histories of sports car manufacturing.
It all sure leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Irrespective how much faster the new vanilla GT3 is than my 4.0. I actually do not mind that fact at all, and am happy to see progress. However, on the way, some core brand attributes/ values have been lost.
Best, w

StirlingMoss 03-10-2013 07:31 AM

There may well be legitimate reasons why Preuninger did not answer. Just because he did not answer this does not mean there is some conspiracy going on. It would not come as a surprise if the new engine shows up in the cup cars for the next season.

I also start to wonder who is really a victim of the marketing department. All this talk about motorsport connection, racing heritage, shared components, Mezger this and Mezger that, etc. This is all the stuff you have been fed from marketing brochures and adverts. No more marketing going on now with the new GT3 than before.

Atgani 03-10-2013 07:45 AM


Originally Posted by speed21 (Post 10288249)
Respectfully not directing this entirely at you but don't forget this is 2013, not 2009 or 2010. Statements made in times gone will always be just statements made without having any first hand experience of todays latest GT3 technology. If AP says any prior GT3 is not better than the new 991GT3 car (RS 4.0 inc) then he ought to know. Although hang on...he's just being paid to say that right?:rolleyes:

This new car is gonna be an absolute cracker, but i suspect all the naysayers know that and are out there hammering away:to_order: on their :soapbox:box without even having driven the car. So typical..... :roflmao:

So true, see the final page of this document :

Leaked (having been recovered from a Stuttgart taxi earlier today)

Some phrases need German to English translation, I've reproduced them from the document to make putting them into Google translate easier :

Maschinenstürmer

Es ist Scheiße, Es macht die Änderung auf dem 915 Getriebe fühle mich wie ein Gewehr Bolt

Ihre durchschnittliche Supermarkt Einkaufswagen lenkt besser


http://translate.google.co.uk/

http://thumbsnap.com/s/mpQBvVwB.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/Q8eFJ3ae.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/3Gn7FCrc.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/WJojFZhO.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/YVmMDa3j.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/ekoeOrVC.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/yIl99iQY.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/Vz9m5KGN.jpg

http://thumbsnap.com/s/k9KYBkiA.jpg

StirlingMoss 03-10-2013 08:03 AM


Originally Posted by Atgani (Post 10289198)
So true, see the final page of this document :

Leaked (having been recovered from a Stuttgart taxi earlier today)

Hahaha! :roflmao: Wally and the shopping trolley. Brilliant!

911rox 03-10-2013 08:23 AM

Its all good fellas! We got the 2014 911 GT3 jam packed with FOCA (full of crap as) and FIGJAM (f'k its good, just ask me) technologies that the masses have been asking for! :thumbup: Really wasn't any point to spending hours at cars and coffee drafting a 10 page letter, but hey, each to their own ;)

Atgani 03-10-2013 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10289213)
Really wasn't any point to spending hours at cars and coffee drafting a 10 page letter)


Nor indeed whingeing on internet forums that Porsche AG have little or no regard for :banghead: But each to their (ironic) own eh ;)

911rox 03-10-2013 08:55 AM

If expressing an opinion is a crime then we are all guilty, both those for and against... Everyone will have an opinion, not necessarily one that falls in line with that from Porsche.

Thankfully to date, it hasn't been a forum rule that you must say nothing if you don't have anything nice to say (unless it relates to another forum member) ;) But again, to each their own indeed... :)

DRPM 03-10-2013 09:30 AM

To be fair, I'll save my opinion of what Porsche have done with the 991 GT3 till after I have a few hours of seat time on the track.

Atgani 03-10-2013 10:13 AM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10289234)
If expressing an opinion is a crime then we are all guilty, both those for and against... Everyone will have an opinion, not necessarily one that falls in line with that from Porsche.

Thankfully to date, it hasn't been a forum rule that you must say nothing if you don't have anything nice to say (unless it relates to another forum member) ;) But again, to each their own indeed... :)

Oh dear. The contents of my first post seem to be lost on you.

Try one of these :

http://thumbsnap.com/s/OHN4JeEQ.jpg

and come back later when you're not feeling quite so uptight ;)

:)

911rox 03-10-2013 11:08 AM


Originally Posted by Atgani (Post 10289305)
Oh dear. The contents of my first post seem to be lost on you.

Try one of these :

http://thumbsnap.com/s/OHN4JeEQ.jpg

and come back later when you're not feeling quite so uptight ;)

:)

Geez, one isn't blindly awe struck by pointless, gimmicky systems adopted by Porsche to whoa potential customers like DUMBASS- (dubious unnecessary moronic based active steering system) and immediately they are uptight and in need of chill pills, lmao... Thanx doc! :thumbup:

Veloce Raptor 03-10-2013 11:15 AM


Originally Posted by speed21 (Post 10288249)
If AP says any prior GT3 is not better than the new 991GT3 car (RS 4.0 inc) then he ought to know. Although hang on...he's just being paid to say that right?:rolleyes:

In fact he is being paid to say that...just as he was paid to extol the wonderfulness of the faux centerlocks on the 997.2's. :rolleyes:

Love the "press release" hahahahahaha!!! :thumbsup:

savyboy 03-10-2013 11:36 AM

Atgani, that press release is hilarious! Thank you for the morning belly laughs. In all fairness, it takes a shot at everything and everybody. Important to take a break from the asylum burning and have a restorative laugh. Now where did I lay that darn torch...

mdrums 03-10-2013 11:40 AM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10288339)
Interviews now with both Evo and Car yet nobody has questioned AP on the centrelocks, the dozen or so failures, the two recalls and the new, ridiculous maintenance schedule!!! Gee, I wonder why? Happy to bet a dollar or two that Porsche are placing a no-go zone on that discussion!!!

Maybe in order to get an interview with Mr. AP the interviewer must agree not to ask questions pertaining to center lock wheels and or past failures of this product.

prg 03-10-2013 12:20 PM

Atgani, that's awesome!

Every Porsche I've ever driven has been a little (sometimes a lot) better than the last.

jumper5836 03-10-2013 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by speed21 (Post 10288249)
Respectfully not directing this entirely at you but don't forget this is 2013, not 2009 or 2010. Statements made in times gone will always be just statements made without having any first hand experience of todays latest GT3 technology. If AP says any prior GT3 is not better than the new 991GT3 car (RS 4.0 inc) then he ought to know. Although hang on...he's just being paid to say that right?:rolleyes:

This new car is gonna be an absolute cracker, but i suspect all the naysayers know that and are out there hammering away:to_order: on their :soapbox:box without even having driven the car. So typical.....:roflmao:

Progress, sometimes really sucks. Look at the Mayans and in this case he knew that the technology existed, he answered those questions when asked why the GT3 didn't get pdk as an option. It's all BS and a switch to sell more cars to a different (larger) market.

And I agree, it will be an amazing car and it looks good. But without manual there is no way I would buy this car unless it was for bought my wife to drive and win DE.

Atgani 03-10-2013 04:46 PM


Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10289449)
Atgani, that press release is hilarious! Thank you for the morning belly laughs. In all fairness, it takes a shot at everything and everybody. Important to take a break from the asylum burning and have a restorative laugh. Now where did I lay that darn torch...

Exactly how it was intended savyboy :thumbsup:

Chris M. 03-10-2013 07:28 PM


Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor (Post 10278000)
+1



Respectfully disagree. He comes across as the marketing guy he is, just as he did when he extolled the virtues of the 997.2 faux centerlocks...




+2

+3. Reading that the new engine was 25kg lighter was really impressive until I also read that the entire car is 70kg heavier. What a joke. This is about appealing to Ferrari, Lambo, and GT-R owners.

MM3.9GT3 03-11-2013 12:57 PM


Originally Posted by Atgani (Post 10290127)
Exactly how it was intended savyboy :thumbsup:

One of the funniest parodies I have ever read. Thanks.


Originally Posted by Chris M. (Post 10290419)
+3. Reading that the new engine was 25kg lighter was really impressive until I also read that the entire car is 70kg heavier. What a joke. This is about appealing to Ferrari, Lambo, and GT-R owners.

I was not in the market for a 991 GT3. Should I order one? Stereotyping is a form of social judgement, and there is plenty of that regarding Porsche drivers too.


Originally Posted by mdrums (Post 10289452)
Maybe in order to get an interview with Mr. AP the interviewer must agree not to ask questions pertaining to center lock wheels and or past failures of this product.

That is how the game is played by most manufacturers. The questions are scripted, and if you throw a couple of curve balls, you are not granted another interview for a few years. If you really step out of line, you are not invited to all inclusive press launches in exotic locations, with free business class tickets.

F1CrazyDriver 03-11-2013 04:05 PM


Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10289449)
Atgani, that press release is hilarious! Thank you for the morning belly laughs. In all fairness, it takes a shot at everything and everybody. Important to take a break from the asylum burning and have a restorative laugh. Now where did I lay that darn torch...


Savy, from your post, I sense you are callinbg BS on Mr. Andreas, and you are not going to drink his cool-aid anymore. :)

997 4.0 vs. 991 GT3. They lap the same lap times around the ring. 991 weights a bit more. Has rear steer( more stable), has the magical PDK that gains .5 car length per shift. ( I wonder how many shifts there is in one lap at the ring, that is a lot of car lengths gained! *sarcasm), and a buncha other cool-aid from Andreas.

So the analog old school machine laps just as fast. Yes it only has 25 bhp more and less weight. Not all the fancy stuff (RWS/PDK/ Bigger brakes/ and standard navi to tell me where i'm going, and the increase of 500 rpm, that Andreas claims it is magical and very much needed... hmm decisions.


A Gt2RS still does it in the 7:1X's with analog.

Forget all this car sutff ill keep driving the model S and let you guys fight over driver involvement! :thumbsup:

savyboy 03-11-2013 07:56 PM


Originally Posted by F1CrazyDriver (Post 10292514)
Savy, from your post, I sense you are callinbg BS on Mr. Andreas, and you are not going to drink his cool-aid anymore. :)

Enrique- just burned out on the whole marketing vs reality BS. Porsche buyers pay a higher premium for a given technology than any other car buyers, they make more profit off of us than any other car company and we are treated like we have leprosy after we buy the car. I'm soured on all the misrepresentations (*lies*) from the marketing side and the disrespect from the management side. No reason to believe anything will change. We are walking wallets to VAG, nothing more. Not a business I want to support any longer. Other mfg's more honest/transparent/integrity.

Hey man, hope you are well and doing fine! :thumbup:

StirlingMoss 03-12-2013 02:15 AM


Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10293087)
Enrique- just burned out on the whole marketing vs reality BS. Porsche buyers pay a higher premium for a given technology than any other car buyers, they make more profit off of us than any other car company...

Did you realise that only now? A fully spec'ed 911 cost almost twice as much as a fully spec'ed Cayman. Does it actually cost more to build a 911? Nah. 95% of the parts are identical. It is nothing than a premium, always been, always will.

There is a reason Porsche has been the most profitable car manufacturer ever ;)

stout 03-12-2013 02:34 AM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10289213)
Its all good fellas! We got the 2014 911 GT3 jam packed with FOCA (full of crap as) and FIGJAM (f'k its good, just ask me) technologies that the masses have been asking for! :thumbup: Really wasn't any point to spending hours at cars and coffee drafting a 10 page letter, but hey, each to their own ;)

Oh....it's only March but I think FIGJAM may be the funniest thing I read on Rennlist in 2013...

Priceless. Thanks for the laugh. I needed that. :cheers:

pete

DC640 03-12-2013 03:50 AM

I wanted to believe the letter until I read the new gearbox name.. while laughing I still wanted to believe.. lol

BBMGT3 03-12-2013 04:03 AM


Originally Posted by F1CrazyDriver (Post 10292514)
Savy, from your post, I sense you are callinbg BS on Mr. Andreas, and you are not going to drink his cool-aid anymore. :)

997 4.0 vs. 991 GT3. They lap the same lap times around the ring. 991 weights a bit more. Has rear steer( more stable), has the magical PDK that gains .5 car length per shift. ( I wonder how many shifts there is in one lap at the ring, that is a lot of car lengths gained! *sarcasm), and a buncha other cool-aid from Andreas.

So the analog old school machine laps just as fast. Yes it only has 25 bhp more and less weight. Not all the fancy stuff (RWS/PDK/ Bigger brakes/ and standard navi to tell me where i'm going, and the increase of 500 rpm, that Andreas claims it is magical and very much needed... hmm decisions.


A Gt2RS still does it in the 7:1X's with analog.

Forget all this car sutff ill keep driving the model S and let you guys fight over driver involvement! :thumbsup:

i suspect the 991 time is very conservative.

I also suspect that the Dunlops are crap.

Slowekistan 03-12-2013 07:15 AM


Originally Posted by jumper5836 (Post 10289763)
unless it was for bought my wife to drive and win DE.

:roflmao:

9972RS 03-12-2013 07:37 AM

is it just me or has Andreas Preuniger lost all credibility?

He sold us the 997 gt3. It didn't need PDK because it was heavy and un-necessary. The steering was amazing and allowed for excellent feedback. Centerlocks would allow for better track day cars. Except that your warranty would be void.

Now, he's selling us the 991gt3. The PDK is amazing, quickest shifts, etc. The electric steering allows for excellent road feel and feedback. The centerlocks were revised.

what a crock of sh!t. it's too bad all the car manufacturers are the same. I thought porsche would've kept the GT3 a drivers car. oh well, it's the lesser of two evils.

StirlingMoss 03-12-2013 08:47 AM


Originally Posted by 9972RS (Post 10294051)
is it just me or has Andreas Preuniger lost all credibility?

He sold us the 997 gt3. It didn't need PDK because it was heavy and un-necessary. The steering was amazing and allowed for excellent feedback. Centerlocks would allow for better track day cars. Except that your warranty would be void.

Now, he's selling us the 991gt3. The PDK is amazing, quickest shifts, etc. The electric steering allows for excellent road feel and feedback. The centerlocks were revised.

what a crock of sh!t. it's too bad all the car manufacturers are the same. I thought porsche would've kept the GT3 a drivers car. oh well, it's the lesser of two evils.

You sound surprised. Porsche is company. They need to make profit. If you believe everything he said then time for some reflection. He is certainly no crook. He is employed by Porsche and represents them in every interview, video, etc.

The Mezger engine does not mate with the PDK so was never a topic for the 997. Even if it did it might well be that the PDK was unnecessary because the 996/997 chassis had reached its limit.

911rox 03-12-2013 09:45 AM


Originally Posted by stout (Post 10293921)
Oh....it's only March but I think FIGJAM may be the funniest thing I read on Rennlist in 2013...

Priceless. Thanks for the laugh. I needed that. :cheers:

pete

lmao... No probs Pete, just achronyming with the best of them, haha... ;)

F1CrazyDriver 03-12-2013 12:27 PM


Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10293087)
Enrique- just burned out on the whole marketing vs reality BS. Porsche buyers pay a higher premium for a given technology than any other car buyers, they make more profit off of us than any other car company and we are treated like we have leprosy after we buy the car. I'm soured on all the misrepresentations (*lies*) from the marketing side and the disrespect from the management side. No reason to believe anything will change. We are walking wallets to VAG, nothing more. Not a business I want to support any longer. Other mfg's more honest/transparent/integrity.

Hey man, hope you are well and doing fine! :thumbup:


I agree Pete. Marketing propaganda does not translates to reality with Porsche anymore. Hope all is well in the snowy hills :) .. I believe Porsche brand has been diluted for several years now. I remember when Porsche dealers would sponsor track days, and would not void your warranty. God forbid if you mention the word track to a SA now days.

Did you add the machine on your avatar ? I hope you did ! I would like to acquire an open wheel race car. Down-force is an awesome sensation :)

savyboy 03-12-2013 02:14 PM


Originally Posted by F1CrazyDriver (Post 10294546)
I agree Pete. Marketing propaganda does not translates to reality with Porsche anymore. Hope all is well in the snowy hills :) .. I believe Porsche brand has been diluted for several years now. I remember when Porsche dealers would sponsor track days, and would not void your warranty. God forbid if you mention the word track to a SA now days.

Did you add the machine on your avatar ? I hope you did ! I would like to acquire an open wheel race car. Down-force is an awesome sensation :)

I was invited to drive a McLaren 12C on track recently, by a local dealer. Couldn't make it to he event, but my respect went up a huge amount. Substance over symbolism ;)

Avatar machine delay by a few months, hopefully May delivery. It's not a downforce car BTW, there are compromises to DF- stiff springs (so it doesn't bottom out at high speed) which reduces traction (too stiff) under approx 80 mph and hair trigger reactions at higher speeds if the car gets out of shape, wind gusts etc. BAC wanted the car to be grippy and predictable throughout the operational envelope.

stout 03-12-2013 02:16 PM


Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10293087)
Enrique- just burned out on the whole marketing vs reality BS. Porsche buyers pay a higher premium for a given technology than any other car buyers, they make more profit off of us than any other car company and we are treated like we have leprosy after we buy the car. I'm soured on all the misrepresentations (*lies*) from the marketing side and the disrespect from the management side. No reason to believe anything will change. We are walking wallets to VAG, nothing more. Not a business I want to support any longer. Other mfg's more honest/transparent/integrity.

Hey man, hope you are well and doing fine! :thumbup:

Way back in 2002, upon the introduction of the $190,000 996 GT2, I wrote a column on the apparent profit margins on Porsche's sports cars...from $40,000~ Boxster to $70,000~ 911 to $115,000~ 911 Turbo to $190,000~ 911 GT2 given the content of each.

As to the new GT3, I've got my personal feelings (hate that there is no manual option, skeptical of rear-steer in this platform, think CLs are stupid) and then what I need to remember in my line of work: Don't judge something until you drive it—especially when it's a Porsche. I've seen its products surprise me both ways, being less impressive than expected (997.1 GT3) and more impressive than expected (Boxster Spyder). I asked Preuninger about centerlocks and more in Geneva, and his answer to most of the questions was: Wait until you drive it. And that's when it'll either fly or it won't. That said, no manual = less interest in the GT3 for me, and, it would appear a lot of people. The thing I hate most, however, is that those who express their enjoyment of the process of shifting their own gears are termed luddites or against progress. I've been all for water-cooling, PSM, variable-ratio steering, PTV, PCCB, etc because they all enhance the drive and do their thing transparently. Also, they don't steal anything from the primary inputs I enjoy making. Electro-mechanical steering (I suspect it will get better, just as hydraulic did and PASM has), PDCC, and now forced PDK in the GT3, however, have left me cold. I liked the GT3 precisely because it was the back to basics choice, and preferred the 996.2 GT3 to all that came after it until the RS 4.0—which had very valuable chassis refinements and the whole car gelled so well that it showed me PASM etc. could be made to be every bit as sweet as that old simple GT3 that started the flame for me. And if you offered me either, I'd take the 4.0.

So maybe the new 3 will be alright. It's got a hell of a reputation to live up to in my book, though, and I could care less about its numbers so long as they represent progress. As to Porsche's current direction, I lament the fact that the Carrera GT, unlike the 959, did not signal the future of the rest of the model line. In the CGT, we saw a "conventional sports car" rendered with new materials technology rather than more gizmos and safety nets. As such, it was a superlative driver's car (also a dangerous one). I hope the Boxster Spyder wasn't the last simple, lightweight Porsche for a while, but we'll see. When I think about the customers, the competition, VAG, and the press, Porsche's job ain't easy.

pete

P_collector 03-12-2013 03:21 PM


Originally Posted by StirlingMoss (Post 10294109)
You sound surprised. Porsche is company. They need to make profit. If you believe everything he said then time for some reflection. He is certainly no crook. He is employed by Porsche and represents them in every interview, video, etc.

The Mezger engine does not mate with the PDK so was never a topic for the 997. Even if it did it might well be that the PDK was unnecessary because the 996/997 chassis had reached its limit.

well, but he (997RS) has a fair point. I dont consider their - or APs communication very fair either. I hope he knows what he is talking about..because with todays internet..everything is transparent. Lets imagine the case where rear wheel steering, CL etc...make issues again..which I hope not..but is he then still credible for you? For me then certainly not anymore.

The issue of the CL Management for 997 owners ..gives us unfortunately reason for doubt. You cant tell me that its well managed..now GT3 owners will have to pay roughly 5K extra maintenance in 10 years..if not more. Is that a remarkable innovation? - or striving customer behaviour?

If in your daily life your plumber, car mechanic, gardener would do such a work..what would you do? I am big Porsche fan too..but they also make mistakes..like others too. But their name doesnt protect them form making mistakes and unfortunately, the number of these mistakes has been increasing lately....

Mike in CA 03-12-2013 06:18 PM


Originally Posted by stout (Post 10294853)
Way back in 2002, upon the introduction of the $190,000 996 GT2, I wrote a column on the apparent profit margins on Porsche's sports cars...from $40,000~ Boxster to $70,000~ 911 to $115,000~ 911 Turbo to $190,000~ 911 GT2 given the content of each.

As to the new GT3, I've got my personal feelings (hate that there is no manual option, skeptical of rear-steer in this platform, think CLs are stupid) and then what I need to remember in my line of work: Don't judge something until you drive it—especially when it's a Porsche. I've seen its products surprise me both ways, being less impressive than expected (997.1 GT3) and more impressive than expected (Boxster Spyder). I asked Preuninger about centerlocks and more in Geneva, and his answer to most of the questions was: Wait until you drive it. And that's when it'll either fly or it won't. That said, no manual = less interest in the GT3 for me, and, it would appear a lot of people. The thing I hate most, however, is that those who express their enjoyment of the process of shifting their own gears are termed luddites or against progress. I've been all for water-cooling, PSM, variable-ratio steering, PTV, PCCB, etc because they all enhance the drive and do their thing transparently. Also, they don't steal anything from the primary inputs I enjoy making. Electro-mechanical steering (I suspect it will get better, just as hydraulic did and PASM has), PDCC, and now forced PDK in the GT3, however, have left me cold. I liked the GT3 precisely because it was the back to basics choice, and preferred the 996.2 GT3 to all that came after it until the RS 4.0—which had very valuable chassis refinements and the whole car gelled so well that it showed me PASM etc. could be made to be every bit as sweet as that old simple GT3 that started the flame for me. And if you offered me either, I'd take the 4.0.

So maybe the new 3 will be alright. It's got a hell of a reputation to live up to in my book, though, and I could care less about its numbers so long as they represent progress. As to Porsche's current direction, I lament the fact that the Carrera GT, unlike the 959, did not signal the future of the rest of the model line. In the CGT, we saw a "conventional sports car" rendered with new materials technology rather than more gizmos and safety nets. As such, it was a superlative driver's car (also a dangerous one). I hope the Boxster Spyder wasn't the last simple, lightweight Porsche for a while, but we'll see. When I think about the customers, the competition, VAG, and the press, Porsche's job ain't easy.

pete

Thoughtful and well stated. I'd like to comment on one thing you wrote. Personally, as a long time (decades) MT driver I've never considered anyone who relishes the pleasures of shifting for themselves a luddite or against progress, and have never used those terms. However, as someone who adopted PDK in my Carrera S 4 years ago I have read hundreds of comments about how PDK is for poseurs, people who can't shift a MT, the Cars and Coffee crowd, the Starbucks crowd, people who want one hand free for their lattes, etc. I'm sure you've read some of those comments as well.

My take is that some who appreciate PDK have begun to push back with a little name calling of their own. Luddite is as inaccurate in describing MT drivers as poseur, for example, is to describe a PDK owner, but it's just human nature to respond and what goes around sometimes comes around. I wouldn't be too wounded by the use of the term luddite. If you go back through all the posts and comments on this subject I suspect you'll find the people knocking PDK owners still have a very sizeable lead.

BTW, I love what you've started to do with Panorama. :cheers:

F1CrazyDriver 03-12-2013 10:46 PM


Originally Posted by stout (Post 10294853)
Way back in 2002, upon the introduction of the $190,000 996 GT2, I wrote a column on the apparent profit margins on Porsche's sports cars...from $40,000~ Boxster to $70,000~ 911 to $115,000~ 911 Turbo to $190,000~ 911 GT2 given the content of each.

As to the new GT3, I've got my personal feelings (hate that there is no manual option, skeptical of rear-steer in this platform, think CLs are stupid) and then what I need to remember in my line of work: Don't judge something until you drive it—especially when it's a Porsche. I've seen its products surprise me both ways, being less impressive than expected (997.1 GT3) and more impressive than expected (Boxster Spyder). I asked Preuninger about centerlocks and more in Geneva, and his answer to most of the questions was: Wait until you drive it. And that's when it'll either fly or it won't. That said, no manual = less interest in the GT3 for me, and, it would appear a lot of people. The thing I hate most, however, is that those who express their enjoyment of the process of shifting their own gears are termed luddites or against progress. I've been all for water-cooling, PSM, variable-ratio steering, PTV, PCCB, etc because they all enhance the drive and do their thing transparently. Also, they don't steal anything from the primary inputs I enjoy making. Electro-mechanical steering (I suspect it will get better, just as hydraulic did and PASM has), PDCC, and now forced PDK in the GT3, however, have left me cold. I liked the GT3 precisely because it was the back to basics choice, and preferred the 996.2 GT3 to all that came after it until the RS 4.0—which had very valuable chassis refinements and the whole car gelled so well that it showed me PASM etc. could be made to be every bit as sweet as that old simple GT3 that started the flame for me. And if you offered me either, I'd take the 4.0.

So maybe the new 3 will be alright. It's got a hell of a reputation to live up to in my book, though, and I could care less about its numbers so long as they represent progress. As to Porsche's current direction, I lament the fact that the Carrera GT, unlike the 959, did not signal the future of the rest of the model line. In the CGT, we saw a "conventional sports car" rendered with new materials technology rather than more gizmos and safety nets. As such, it was a superlative driver's car (also a dangerous one). I hope the Boxster Spyder wasn't the last simple, lightweight Porsche for a while, but we'll see. When I think about the customers, the competition, VAG, and the press, Porsche's job ain't easy.

pete


I'm writting this from my phone while on the train going home so sorry for the grammar/misspelling.

My two main points, and I believe Pete's point of view and mine share common ground are the following. I'm not interested in buying a GT3 that has lost its core values. (unless they are on the Cup/RSR car sure). The GT3 does not hold a candle to my Model S in terms of technology. I LOVE technology, and embrace it.( My model S makes ANY new 911 feel prehistoric. The model S set the tone for what future cars should be like) The CORE essence of the existence of a GT3 (and a GT2) is very simple. Pont 1) Able to purchase a street legal race car of the Cup / RSR. That is THE reason why Porsche made the vehicle. The GT3 / GT2 where made for those customers whom wanted that Cup/RSR experience that they could drive to the track and back home. It is picking the right tool for the right job. Give me a hammer to hammer down a nail. Don't give me a hammer with fancy philips screw driver on the handle. I have another philips screw driver that does the JOB better than this dual purpose you created.
Point 2) If your CORE reason for bringing back the GT3 15 years ago was to give me the Cup/RSR feel and you, Porsche CREATED that fan base, I expect you to honor it.
You created a machine for the intent use of the weekend track warriors, and MARKETING and KNOWLINGLY knowing that these customer that you are targeting with this machine will TAKE this car to the track and push every component to the limit. I expect Porsche to give me the safest components ( not CL) and a machine that is a slightly water down version of the Cup/RSR. I expect you fully well to know what i'm doing with this machine and honor your warranty and listen to the fan base you created back with the Mk1 GT3.
What Porsche has done is taken the GT3 and stripped it of its core to be able to sell it to EVERYONE who has the $. They created a magical image thanks to them providing and RESPECTING the values of those people whom developed the image of what a GT3 is today. But they have now destroyed it with this 911. They have told their original core customer base of a GT3 owner, (that Porsche created) and told them to F off, made it into a DD car to grasp a bigger market. They are attracting poseurs to a model that was not intended for your rich jockeys' to show off at the golf course about their latest and greatest toy.
It reminds of me how Porsche 30+ years ago created a devoted fan base for the 911. Then you said F you, the 944 is replacing it. All 911 Porschepheliastes went crazy. The rich jockey's didnt care. As long as it is a premium brand they could show off, they were fine with that. Same today. You took a Cup/RSR car and made it street legal known as the GT3/2. Now you have made diluted the GT3 to just a hyped up 911 C2s with very little ties to what it was originally was suppose to originate from but you still market it as a track car. When I tell you I took it to the track my Porsche warranty is void. and it no longer as those ties to the Cup/RSR.

Z356 03-13-2013 01:36 AM


Originally Posted by F1CrazyDriver (Post 10296147)
It reminds of me how Porsche 30+ years ago created a devoted fan base for the 911. Then you said F you, the 944 is replacing it. All 911 Porschepheliastes went crazy. The rich jockey's didnt care. As long as it is a premium brand they could show off, they were fine with that. Same today.

In general, Enrique, I understand where you are coming from. First, just a point of historical clarification. The 944 was never considered as a replacement for the 911. That role was assigned to the 928! Managing Director Ernst Fuhrmann thought that was the way to go...and Ferry Porsche was apparently not opposed. It is believed that Peter Schutz, Ernst replacement as CEO, and other influential board members didn't allow that to happen. I lived through that era and followed it closely! We all know where the 928 ended up...back to the future as the new 'Panamera'! But I digress.

Take our your references to 'rich jockey's' (sounds awful like 'Occupy America' speak) and I am with you, brother! I must tell you that some of the BIGGEST proponents of the purest-type 991 gt3 are very wealthy Porsche enthusiasts in these United States! Who do you think are ordering these cars? This is not a 'class struggle or warfare', it is (in my opinion) a fundamental misjudgment by PAG, PCNA & their lawyers of a niche market segment that had, until now, a 'halo' effect on their entire model lineup in the US! The average 991 'Carrera' and 'S' buyer in America revels in the fact that a 911 very similar to theirs - a gt3 - is out on the track every weekend mixing it up with the best from Italy, Japan, etc! Now, they will see less, not more, gt3's doing that and eventually they will start to wonder 'why'! That is not smart policy...or thoughtful marketing, both on the short or the long run!

I believe PCNA will try to make it up to us in the upcoming US spec gt3 RS! They will try to make the RS bullet-proof (re: improved CL, etc.) before they release it next year. These kind of embarrassing failures (plus the liability) is what they are trying to avoid by making the base 991 gt3 less recreational track-friendly, while all the 'new' components are rigorously tested! And it will have proper sport bucket seats (with airbags). Nevertheless, the 991 gt3 'unveiling' at Geneva (for what was said & was not said; what is included & what is not) has left a sour taste in the mouth of many of their former staunch Porsche customers & supporters here in this country! And you & many others in this RL forum have expressed yourselves very eloquently on the subject matter!

Saludos,
Eduardo

speef 03-13-2013 08:04 AM


Originally Posted by jumper5836 (Post 10277792)
Disappointing. Was looking forward to owning one of these some day but it looks like my buck stops with a 997.

I don't give a flying crap that it gains on a long straight and I get more goose bumps doing it myself. I don't get goose bumps watching it happen on tv, in the passengers seat or with two hands on the wheel. Complete utter garbage.

Amen brother...

If you can't heel-toe you may as well drive a bus...

Xbox generation crap... marketing specs taking over the world... could not care less about millisecond this, or millisecond that... the digital world has afforded us many quality of life improvements, shifting is not one of them :)

what's next ? no more oversteer?

StirlingMoss 03-13-2013 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by speef (Post 10296743)
what's next ? no more oversteer?

Yes, no doubt. The Lotus Exige S already have this with the latest Bosch traction wizardry.

Macca 03-13-2013 09:27 AM

Z356 and above posters, I respect your knowledge, experience and point of view immensely. But here I will depart. Weve all been watching the 911 get larger, more luxurious, faster and infused with more and more technology since 1965. So whats different? We (who have cared to follow the new GT3s development closely) have known about the PDK and the non Mezger engine now for 6 months. So whats different? Heck, a decade ago the blokes on Ferrarichat.com would never have anticipated a future with zero manual F car offerings, but today they have no manual options (and the 458 doesn't look half bad from where I sit).

I have never bought a new 911 (couldn't justify nor afford). Im a bit of a purist (look at my list of current and past cars - how many here have owned a 993RS or a 996.1 GT3?) so I feel justified in my opinion. Ill pin my colours to the board and say I booked in for the new 991 GT3, 6 months ago and I knew it would have PDK only (look at my past posts and you will be aware of what I stated last year). Why? Because the standard 911 has become too flabby, large and comfortable and the 991 GT3 was the closest product in the range I could see that would have he perfect blend of usability, performance and cachet. Essentially I figured the 991 GT3 would put the dial back a bit to how the standard 991 should be out of the box for me. Will I sell my 993 6speed (highly modified, lightened and improved) stead - heck no! What would I do Tarmac rallys in or enjoy on the track to test my skills (manual, no traction control, raw feel)? I want the best of both worlds so the 991 GT3 compliments my air cooled old skool 993 just perfectly.

Wheres this going? Maybe the new 991 GT3 is the old 1972 911S. Maybe you were all expecting the 1973 911RS. If so I think you really need to look at the 911 GT3 in the context of the current automotive world. Porsche is now VW, dual clutch cars are now more common than manual ones, technology has helped us go faster, safer, more reliably and using less fuel. Of course this is the new GT3 and of course it was always going to be like this. Why the surprise? Why the sullen looks? There will be another product for you (hopefully the 991 GT3RS or 960). Or you could vote with your wallet and buy and "old skool" 997.1 GT3 or 996.2 GT3. Heck, even go buy a 964 or 993 and spend a tonne of cash lightening it up, adding hp and making it your dream track machine....

I, like most of the future 2000 odd 991 GT3 owners, will not track the car every weekend. Sure Ill likely do the odd DE and some fast back roads. It will handle better than anything we have seen before. It may even surprise those here by being an exceptionally entertaining "automatic" sports car. It will look purposeful, sound wonderful, cover ground with some relative comfort and hey you might even get you wife on board with the PDK. So what? AP didn't make repeated comments to various different highly regarded international press of "wait till you try this and call me if you don't agree" just to put his balls on the line for a day and watch them getting crushed over the coming months - of course they will all try the car and of course they will crush his balls if he wasn't on the mark! That's why they are among other things, critics!

What I wanted to say is simply why all the surprise, really? We are all smart car enthusiasts and we all knew this was coming. There are few surprises here. AP says this is the greatest GT3 ever and it possibly is. Walter Rohl will lap the ring in some ridiculous time, get out and say the electric steering and PDK is sublime and the way of the future, and it probably is. The only vote the consumer makes is with his wallet and Im afraid regardless of the feelings on this board those 2000 units ,(or whatever number they produce), will all be sold.

So, if moving with the new GT3 isnt for you, hold onto your "old" 911 (GT3/RS or whatever) and vote by keeping your money in your pocket. Heck, celebrate by buying some lightweight seats and plan to own that car for another decade or two. That's what I did and Ive owned my 993 for 13 years (loved every moment of it and looked at the newer models and constantly said - no air cooled, not light enough, too large, too fat, etc etc etc). At some stage you feel you want to get back "into the game" but it has to be a car that has moved on enough to make you feel it will provide a noticeable difference to what you have , and have had for a long time, a car that meets your practical lifestyle and your passions at the apex, and for me the 991 GT3 is precisely that machine at this precise time. If I were a hardcore track junkie Id own an ex cup-car, if I wanted more bling Id buy a F car. This car is many different things to many different people - I just think too many on this board had this car pegged to be something it isn't and could never be - because time doesn't stand still.....

One mans opinion...

StirlingMoss 03-13-2013 10:34 AM

Respect! Fully agree with that post.

aussie jimmy 03-13-2013 11:52 AM

+1.
great post, macca.

it will be a great roadcar.

Mike in CA 03-13-2013 01:47 PM

+3 Great post Macca.

It will be a great road car and likely embarrass not just a few "track cars".

jumper5836 03-13-2013 02:26 PM

I don't agree. Time may march forward and we progress. Progression doesn't mean it is good. Look at the Mayans.

The manual gearbox is like the vinyl record where as PDK is like the cassette tape. The cassette tape was a leap forward but the record will continue on.

Mike in CA 03-13-2013 02:53 PM


Originally Posted by jumper5836 (Post 10297631)
I don't agree. Time may march forward and we progress. Progression doesn't mean it is good. Look at the Mayans.

The manual gearbox is like the vinyl record where as PDK is like the cassette tape. The cassette tape was a leap forward but the record will continue on.

Cheers jumper, first time I've ever seen Mayans, PDK, vinyl records, and cassette tapes, mentioned in the same post......:bowdown:

Bill_C4S 03-13-2013 02:55 PM


Originally Posted by jumper5836 (Post 10297631)
I don't agree. Time may march forward and we progress. Progression doesn't mean it is good. Look at the Mayans.

The manual gearbox is like the vinyl record where as PDK is like the cassette tape. The cassette tape was a leap forward but the record will continue on.

nahh...PDK is a Reference Recordings 24/176 audiophile delight!:thumbsup:

F1CrazyDriver 03-13-2013 03:08 PM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10296503)
In general, Enrique, I understand where you are coming from. First, just a point of historical clarification. The 944 was never considered as a replacement for the 911. That role was assigned to the 928! Managing Director Ernst Fuhrmann thought that was the way to go...and Ferry Porsche was apparently not opposed. It is believed that Peter Schutz, Ernst replacement as CEO, and other influential board members didn't allow that to happen. I lived through that era and followed it closely! We all know where the 928 ended up...back to the future as the new 'Panamera'! But I digress.

Take our your references to 'rich jockey's' (sounds awful like 'Occupy America' speak) and I am with you, brother! I must tell you that some of the BIGGEST proponents of the purest-type 991 gt3 are very wealthy Porsche enthusiasts in these United States! Who do you think are ordering these cars? This is not a 'class struggle or warfare', it is (in my opinion) a fundamental misjudgment by PAG, PCNA & their lawyers of a niche market segment that had, until now, a 'halo' effect on their entire model lineup in the US! The average 991 'Carrera' and 'S' buyer in America revels in the fact that a 911 very similar to theirs - a gt3 - is out on the track every weekend mixing it up with the best from Italy, Japan, etc! Now, they will see less, not more, gt3's doing that and eventually they will start to wonder 'why'! That is not smart policy...or thoughtful marketing, both on the short or the long run!

I believe PCNA will try to make it up to us in the upcoming US spec gt3 RS! They will try to make the RS bullet-proof (re: improved CL, etc.) before they release it next year. These kind of embarrassing failures (plus the liability) is what they are trying to avoid by making the base 991 gt3 less recreational track-friendly, while all the 'new' components are rigorously tested! And it will have proper sport bucket seats (with airbags). Nevertheless, the 991 gt3 'unveiling' at Geneva (for what was said & was not said; what is included & what is not) has left a sour taste in the mouth of many of their former staunch Porsche customers & supporters here in this country! And you & many others in this RL forum have expressed yourselves very eloquently on the subject matter!

Saludos,
Eduardo


Eduardo, I agree with you and I hope you are right BUT I believe, in very simple without writing a thesis, what you are stating is the main issue.

Porsche will make it up with with the RS. Marketing. Diluting the 911 GT3. Now the GT3 RS will please the original GT3 owners.

I thought the C2s hyped up model to bridge the gap between a C2S and the GT3 was a GTS.

This car that was presented at Geneva should have been put on a GTS.

Porsche has sucked every drop of blood out of the 911


911
911S
9114S
911Targa
911 GTS
911 GT3
911 GT3 RS
911 GT2
911 GT2RS
911 Turbo
911 Turbo S


Do we really need all these variants ? I'm not even including the convertibles..

Why not a simple diaphragm for what each car is design for.

911 C2s - DD for non snow /lively driving
911 C4s - for the snow folks
911 Targa - for the folks whom want some nice weather
911 GT3 - for track guys
911 GT2 - for track guys whom want to kill themselves
911 Turbo - for those whom want a little of everything in 1 bundle.

jumper5836 03-13-2013 03:10 PM


Originally Posted by Bill_C4S (Post 10297735)
nahh...PDK is a Reference Recordings 24/176 audiophile delight!:thumbsup:

Some like to listen to music, while others make it. So is with the PDK vs manual.

Btw I am not saying it should be only manual. I only want the option for manual as this would be the only way I would buy it new or on the used market.

Bill_C4S 03-13-2013 03:23 PM

I agree there should have been a manual option.

Especially, given that two other stable mates will deliver manuals in 2013....

1. Lambo with the 560-2 (yes the soon to be announced 50th anniversary, manual version of the Gallardo..and yup 560 not 550..)

and

2. the new Audi R8 (V8/V10/V10 Plus) all of which include a manual option along side the DCT...

then PAG should have as a nod to the genealogy of the GT3....

afforded the option.

speef 03-13-2013 04:37 PM

You make some good points, and well said... here's what I'm getting at and it's a very personal deal for everyone... I have a 01 Diablo and a 99 550 Maranello... both analog... the Maranello is the better car, it's more engineered, balanced, poised, lighter... the Diablo is raw, mechanical, loud, and feels like it was put together by mechanics over the weekend... it has an unfinished quality to it... it's the more exciting car, by far... it has charm and muscle and it's imperfect in a lot of ways... a big go-kart with a 600 hp V12 right behind your ears... the Ferrari is the tall brunette Italian model, with her graduate degrees, her 5 languages, and the piano and ballet pedigree... the Lambo is the playboy bunny with a few tats :) The first one you want to take to the Opera, the second one you want to schtoop :) and that's about as scientific as I can get on this one... :)

Macca 03-13-2013 05:47 PM

I personally, from what I have heard ex factory, do not believe a manual transmission was ever a real contender for the 991 GT3. Test mules have sported the PDK in various guises since July last year and I cant recall seeing any spy photographs sporting a manual transmission. Of course the development path of the 991 GT3 RS (if there is to be one) is now well advanced and by the time customers take delivery of 9991 GT3 will all but be signed off.

Its going to come down to what the motoring world say about the PDK GT3. They will be the first to tell us how this car drives and we will likely start reading about it from July/August this year. They are really the only medium that could change any predetermined course of transmission selection for the 991 GT3.

I believe the GT3 & GT3RS should have only one choice of transmission. As AP has said they are a small team and offering a choice means designing two different cars (due to electronics, weight distribution etc) and the resources dont exist. The GT3 should always be a cohesive design from impetus to execution to retain its character and specific traits (for better or worse).

My personal belief is that today AP and his team have huge confidence that the 991 GT3 with PDK will re write the history books as to what is accepted and respected as the new world order in future sport transmission for the 911. They must have considerable confidence from their test drivers to have made this call and stuck it all on the line, so it will come down to wether the worlds motoring press agree. My guess is that currently the 991 GT3 RS is on the design table as a PDK only option, but that development of a suitable manual box is still being explored dependent on the 991 GT3s press reception...

Al Pettee 03-13-2013 06:21 PM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10298250)

...As AP has said they are a small team and offering a choice means designing two different cars (due to electronics, weight distribution etc) and the resources dont exist....

Sorry, but that's horse**** as PAG has all the "resources" it needs to engineer, build and market a two-transmission GT3, rather it would in the minds of marketing be less profitable to manufacture two trannies for the car, but profitable nonetheless. Regretfully, I view the PDK-ization of the GT3 as just the beginning of the end of the manual transmission in all Porsches, not due to inability to design two separate vehicles, but an intentional market strategy to convert all of Porsche's lineup to a complete automation of their vehicles-I bet ultimately including the Carrera's, Cayman/Boxsters, as well as the Panny/Cayenne's, not to mention the 918/960's. I interpret AP's comment as simply toeing the factory line on PDK.... :(

StirlingMoss 03-13-2013 06:32 PM


Originally Posted by Al Pettee (Post 10298340)
Sorry, but that's horse**** as PAG has all the "resources" it needs to engineer, build and market a two-transmission GT3, rather it would in the minds of marketing be less profitable to manufacture two trannies for the car, but profitable nonetheless. Regretfully, I view the PDK-ization of the GT3 as just the beginning of the end of the manual transmission in all Porsches, not due to inability to design two separate vehicles, but an intentional market strategy to convert all of Porsche's lineup to a complete automation of their vehicles-I bet ultimately including the Carrera's, Cayman/Boxsters, as well as the Panny/Cayenne's, not to mention the 918/960's. I interpret AP's comment as simply toeing the factory line on PDK.... :(

I don't buy the story about an overhead to build and manufacture two transmission either. In fact, they have two different PDK transmissions already, one for the mid/rear engine cars and one for the front engine cars. On top of this they still offer a conventional automatic for the Cayenne since PDK has not proven itself offroad (yet).

I think the decision is more due to:
1.) The performance difference for a PDK versus manual GT3 is too large to justify a "suboptimal" manual car.
2.) The stricter emission laws.

Mike in CA 03-13-2013 06:48 PM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10298250)
I personally, from what I have heard ex factory, do not believe a manual transmission was ever a real contender for the 991 GT3. Test mules have sported the PDK in various guises since July last year and I cant recall seeing any spy photographs sporting a manual transmission. Of course the development path of the 991 GT3 RS (if there is to be one) is now well advanced and by the time customers take delivery of 9991 GT3 will all but be signed off.

Its going to come down to what the motoring world say about the PDK GT3. They will be the first to tell us how this car drives and we will likely start reading about it from July/August this year. They are really the only medium that could change any predetermined course of transmission selection for the 991 GT3.

I believe the GT3 & GT3RS should have only one choice of transmission. As AP has said they are a small team and offering a choice means designing two different cars (due to electronics, weight distribution etc) and the resources dont exist. The GT3 should always be a cohesive design from impetus to execution to retain its character and specific traits (for better or worse).

My personal belief is that today AP and his team have huge confidence that the 991 GT3 with PDK will re write the history books as to what is accepted and respected as the new world order in future sport transmission for the 911. They must have considerable confidence from their test drivers to have made this call and stuck it all on the line, so it will come down to wether the worlds motoring press agree. My guess is that currently the 991 GT3 RS is on the design table as a PDK only option, but that development of a suitable manual box is still being explored dependent on the 991 GT3s press reception...

Macca, good points. I would add:

1) Speculate........evaluate details .........decide

2) Speculate........evaluate details.........drive.........decide.

That one additional step makes Option 2 so much more logical. As Macca pointed out earlier, it's basically what AP has said; drive the car then let me know. Even if some preliminary details are disappointing to you, why the insistence on reaching a premature conclusion? Are people afraid that pre-conceived ideas and prejudices might be challenged if they actually drove the car?

I honestly understand the healthy skepticism about PDK, RWS, etc. But I don't understand the desire for a rush to judgement before even seeing the car in person, much less driving it, or at least getting input from reputable reviewers. I wish someone would explain the reasoning behind that.

-eztrader- 03-13-2013 07:03 PM

Driving the car first isn't a great option....

Each dealer will have a limited allocation - -and the early cars are most likely already spoken for.

later on - if you happen to find a dealer with a car in stock - good luck getting a test drive.

Fact is - if you want this car - you need to act now - or soon . . .. .and that doesn't include a test drive.

I went out today and drove a pdk carrera S, and and a pdk turbo S - - but not sure how much that really tells me about the new GT3

Macca 03-13-2013 07:04 PM

Al +Stirling. I don't disagree that there is an agenda at play here, Porsche is a corporation after all. AP said the resources weren't available so I think the point is that if you read between the lines (as you have identified) there is no internal mandate to make a manual a serious contender for the new GT3. I believe its probably a performance related decision.

Mike is right however. Until someone has driven the damn thing and reported on it much of what we are discussing falls into the speculation camp at this stage. Debate is healthy but I think its a bit too easy to over speculate this stage and already there are many pundits on these threads boxing themselves into corners ("Ill never own a PDK GT3" etc).

If PAG are going to drag me into the digital driving experience/age finally, (the most modern 911 I have owned to date being a 996 GT3), then I just pray this GT3 lives up to AP's promises and is a class leader. Until we hear from someone who has driven the car (other than AP or the PAG team) then we just have to wait....and speculate LOL!

Macca 03-13-2013 07:09 PM

eztrader. You are correct and preaching to the converted (with MIke and myself at least as we already have orders in). The first cars into the USA will likely be Xmas. However the Europeans will have their cars delivered before November I suspect and the official "first driive" for Journalists is likely to be early September Id imagine. Magazines like EVO may get a demo LHD 991 GT3 shortly after this time to run a true shake down piece and that's probably the best information we will see until Nov. A long time to wait!

Petevb 03-13-2013 07:12 PM

So I just saw that someone posted a power band for the new motor, and it's now pretty clear to me that we're never getting a manual with this motor.

The big change vs the street 997 GT3 motors is a lack of low end torque. Look at the 991 overlayed with an RS 4.0, and you can see what I mean:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8525/8...195dbd_b_d.jpg
The 991 has a 2000 rpm torque hole vs any of the street 997 GT3s.

With a PDK this doesn't matter- the 4500 rpm torque band is plenty wide enough that the gearbox can always downshift into the power band. With a manual, however, shifting takes time, and the extra flexibility to carry a higher gear is needed.

The new 991 powerband actually looks almost the same as a 997 cup car's. The cup car also doesn't have torque until 4500 rpm, and it also doesn't need it because it has a sequential gearbox. The cup car motor is also significantly lighter and less complex than the street car, in part because they can eliminate the variocam system from the cup motor.

It seems clear to me Porsche has made the same tradeoff here: simplify and lighten the motor, but at the expense of low end torque. That's a good trade-off with an automated gearbox, but not one you'd make with a manual. I'm sure this is some of what Preuninger was saying when he said the manual and PDK versions would be significantly different. Unfortunately it also means that if an RS was to offer a manual option, it would probably also need to come with a more complex and heavier motor to make it work well.

After seeing this, I'm not holding my breath.

Mike in CA 03-13-2013 07:22 PM


Originally Posted by -eztrader- (Post 10298461)
Driving the car first isn't a great option....

Each dealer will have a limited allocation - -and the early cars are most likely already spoken for.

later on - if you happen to find a dealer with a car in stock - good luck getting a test drive.

Fact is - if you want this car - you need to act now - or soon . . .. .and that doesn't include a test drive.

I went out today and drove a pdk carrera S, and and a pdk turbo S - - but not sure how much that really tells me about the new GT3

You're right; I'm unlikely to be able to drive the car myself before ordering one. But plenty of auto journalists and magazines will do so, and some have established enough credibility that I feel comfortable with their feedback. So when I say drive, I mean that as potential buyers we will at least have input from independant sources about the car's driving characteristics and performance, while at present we have basically nothing but a press release.

In some ways, I don't need to be convinced. I've driven and autocrossed a PDK Carrera S for 4 years. I'm imagining an improved chassis with stiffer suspension, bigger brakes, wider wheels and tires, an enhanced PDK, and 100 more HP. A fun, impressive car is a foregone conclusion.

Z356 03-13-2013 07:25 PM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10298250)
I personally, from what I have heard ex factory, do not believe a manual transmission was ever a real contender for the 991 GT3.

Well, that is not the whole story. Not that long ago we heard the CEO of Porsche, Matthias Muller, tell us in a major US publication that the upcoming 991 gt3 WOULD have a manual transmission:

"Indeed, if you look at Porsche's claimed performance and efficiency numbers, the PDK is clearly the higher-performance transmission of the two -- both the Carrera and Carrera S models with the PDK are quicker to 60 mph and more fuel efficient than the stick-shift equipped versions. But as long as the customer asks for it, says Muller, Porsche will build a stick-shift 911. The next GT3, he says, will not have a PDK transmission."

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/c...#ixzz2NSLjnJsj

Mind you, a few weeks later we already knew that Herr Muller was somewhat 'out of the loop', that his statements meant nothing, and that PDK would be offered on the 991 gt3! See my thread below:

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...after-all.html

Macca, PDK on the 991 gt3 is not what has many here concerned! What has some alarmed, some disappointed and some angry is a COMBINATION of PDK ONLY (no manual choice), the continuation of the dreaded Center Lock Wheels, the added complexity of 'Porsche Torque Vectoring Plus' and 'Rear Wheel Steering', the inability to order 'Sport Bucket Seats' in the US and the inexcusable WEIGHT increase on this 991 gt3!

I think I understand your point of view and those of folks like 'Mike in CA' & others. But don't underestimate the frustrations of many in this forum re: the CL failures, the Catastrophic Coolant Hose Coupling Failure, the PCCB's issues, the RMS oil drips, the weak/ineffective Limited Slip Differential, etc on their .1 & .2 997 gt3's. Just take a cursory look at the many sticky's on the gt3 forum at the top of the page warning owners of these gt3 specific problems!!! And if we have one fatality as the result of any of these defects, all bets are off!

Those of you ordering a 991 gt3 that did not previously invested in a 997 gt3 or RS feel pretty optimistic & excited with all the 'new' technology of this new gt3! I am too! But those here that purchased a 997 .1 and/or .2 gt3 and suffered from these annoying & expensive 'reliability' issues have a much different perspective! It is similar to new recruits going into battle vs the weary & leery front-line veterans! As long as we all recognize where each camp is coming from, it will be easier for all of us to interpret what each group writes and posts in this great RL forum. My dos centavos, for what is worth!

Saludos,
Eduardo

mike2727 03-13-2013 07:26 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10298495)
So I just saw that someone posted a power band for the new motor, and it's now pretty clear to me that we're never getting a manual with this motor.

The big change vs the street 997 GT3 motors is a lack of low end torque. Look at the 991 overlayed with an RS 4.0, and you can see what I mean:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8525/8...195dbd_b_d.jpg
The 991 has a 2000 rpm torque hole vs any of the street 997 GT3s.

With a PDK this doesn't matter- the 4500 rpm torque band is plenty wide enough that the gearbox can always downshift into the power band. With a manual, however, shifting takes time, and the extra flexibility to carry a higher gear is needed.

The new 991 powerband actually looks almost the same as a 997 cup car's. The cup car also doesn't have torque until 4500 rpm, and it also doesn't need it because it has a sequential gearbox. The cup car motor is also significantly lighter and less complex than the street car, in part because they can eliminate the variocam system from the cup motor.

It seems clear to me Porsche has made the same tradeoff here: simplify and lighten the motor, but at the expense of low end torque. That's a good trade-off with an automated gearbox, but not one you'd make with a manual. I'm sure this is some of what Preuninger was saying when he said the manual and PDK versions would be significantly different. Unfortunately it also means that if an RS was to offer a manual option, it would probably also need to come with a more complex and heavier motor to make it work well.

After seeing this, I'm not holding my breath.

Very interesting, not used to that with my "HYBRID" LOL

Petevb would it be possible to make an overlay including the 997.2 GT3 /GT3RS torque curve as well ?

Thanks
Mike

mike2727 03-13-2013 07:34 PM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10298528)
Well, that is not the whole story. Not that long ago we heard the CEO of Porsche, Matthias Muller, tell us in a major US publication that the upcoming 991 gt3 WOULD have a manual transmission:

"Indeed, if you look at Porsche's claimed performance and efficiency numbers, the PDK is clearly the higher-performance transmission of the two -- both the Carrera and Carrera S models with the PDK are quicker to 60 mph and more fuel efficient than the stick-shift equipped versions. But as long as the customer asks for it, says Muller, Porsche will build a stick-shift 911. The next GT3, he says, will not have a PDK transmission."

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/c...#ixzz2NSLjnJsj

Mind you, a few weeks later we already knew that Herr Muller was somewhat 'out of the loop', that his statements meant nothing, and that PDK would be offered on the 991 gt3! See my thread below:

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...after-all.html

Macca, PDK on the 991 gt3 is not what has many here concerned! What has some alarmed, some disappointed and some angry is a COMBINATION of PDK ONLY (no manual choice), the continuation of the dreaded Center Lock Wheels, the added complexity of 'Porsche Torque Vectoring Plus' and 'Rear Wheel Steering', the inability to order 'Sport Bucket Seats' in the US and the inexcusable WEIGHT increase on this 991 gt3!

I think I understand your point of view and those of folks like 'Mike in CA' & others. But don't underestimate the frustrations of many in this forum re: the CL failures, the Catastrophic Coolant Hose Coupling Failure, the PCCB's issues, the RMS oil drips, the weak/ineffective Limited Slip Differential, etc on their .1 & .2 997 gt3's. Just take a cursory look at the many sticky's on the gt3 forum at the top of the page warning owners of these gt3 specific problems!!! And if we have one fatality as the result of any of these defects, all bets are off!

Those of you ordering a 991 gt3 that did not previously invested in a 997 gt3 or RS feel pretty optimistic & excited with all the 'new' technology of this new gt3! I am too! But those here that purchased a 997 .1 and/or .2 gt3 and suffered from these annoying & expensive 'reliability' issues have a much different perspective! It is similar to new recruits going into battle vs the weary & leery front-line veterans! As long as we all recognize where each camp is coming from, it will be easier for all of us to interpret what each group writes and posts in this great RL forum. My dos centavos, for what is worth!

Saludos,
Eduardo

I agree, eventhough I have not owned a GT3 before, I know enough people that have had issues mentioned by you, which makes me think twice before I make the decision
For me it will be important to see what maintenance schedules Porsche will come up with for the PDK, CL, RWS etc for track miles (like what they have fo rthe 997.2 CL's), this will be a very good indicator for where new owners can expect expenses in the future
That is besides the bucket seat saga LOL

Mike

Petevb 03-13-2013 07:38 PM


Originally Posted by mike2727 (Post 10298530)
Petevb would it be possible to make an overlay including the 997.2 GT3 /GT3RS torque curve as well ?

RS seems to be basically the same as the 4.0, but with the tq curve shifted down by 25 ft lbs. RS vs GT3 seems to depend which dyno you believe.

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...ightdyno-1.jpg

Mike in CA 03-13-2013 08:04 PM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10298528)
Macca, PDK on the 991 gt3 is not what has many here concerned! What has some alarmed, some disappointed and some angry is a COMBINATION of PDK ONLY (no manual choice), the continuation of the dreaded Center Lock Wheels, the added complexity of 'Porsche Torque Vectoring Plus' and 'Rear Wheel Steering', the inability to order 'Sport Bucket Seats' in the US and the inexcusable WEIGHT increase on this 991 gt3!

I think I understand your point of view and those of folks like 'Mike in CA' & others. But don't underestimate the frustrations of many in this forum re: the CL failures, the Catastrophic Coolant Hose Coupling Failure, the PCCB's issues, the RMS oil drips, the weak/ineffective Limited Slip Differential, etc on their .1 & .2 997 gt3's. Just take a cursory look at the many sticky's on the gt3 forum at the top of the page warning owners of these gt3 specific problems!!! And if we have one fatality as the result of any of these defects, all bets are off!

Those of you ordering a 991 gt3 that did not previously invested in a 997 gt3 or RS feel pretty optimistic & excited with all the 'new' technology of this new gt3! I am too! But those here that purchased a 997 .1 and/or .2 gt3 and suffered from these annoying & expensive 'reliability' issues have a much different perspective! It is similar to new recruits going into battle vs the weary & leery front-line veterans! As long as we all recognize where each camp is coming from, it will be easier for all of us to interpret what each group writes and posts in this great RL forum. My dos centavos, for what is worth!

Saludos,
Eduardo

Eduardo, it's difficult to tell from your post whether you are more displeased with the reliability of the current 997 series GT cars or the technology in the new ones. :)

There have been many excellent posts addressing some of the issues you raise so I'm not going to rehash those discussions. I will say that there seems to be an opinion, which you have echoed, that somehow the only people who would buy a 991 GT3 are very rich people (you suggested that yesterday) or new Porsche recruits, neither of whom know any better. As with most generalizations, with due respect, I think you are wrong.

This isn't my first rodeo with Porsche; I've owned them for almost 30 years. Unless you're suggesting that the GT versions have been especially unreliable relative to the rest of Porsche's lineup, I think I know what I'm getting into. I've owned a bulletproof PDK car for 4 years so I'm not afraid of that tech. RWS and PTV are quite straightforward from what I've read and experienced (PTV on my Cayenne) and compared to many other systems in a modern car, are fairly simple in their operation. CL's may not be ideal on a road car but the system has reportedly been upgraded. The Sport Bucket issue seems pretty silly right now, but it's months until production and that may yet be addressed.

Although I have my contrary moments, I'm generally a glass half-full person. Rather than focusing on the failings of the previous car and suspicion about the new one, I look back on 30 years of enjoyment owning and driving Porsches, and forward to what on paper looks to be a tremendously impressive car. I understand that some people are disappointed. There comes a time though, when you either accept the change or decide it's not for you and move on to something else. And that's my dos centavos, for what it's worth. :)

Macca 03-13-2013 08:38 PM

Z356.

Unlike Mike Im not coming from a position of experience in new Porsche ownership. The newest Porsche I ever bought was 5 years old at the time and I went in "eyes wide open" knowing already the follies of that model - and that was only 13 years ago.

I accept when I buy a brand new just released Blackberry Z10 or iPhone 5 (as examples) that there will be bugs and often a need for firmware revisions. I understand also that when buying the latest Porsche 911 GT3 based on a new platform that there may also be a few follies I have to endure as part of the new adopter experience.

Im not as educated as may here including yourself on the 997 GT3 follies. I can tell you all about the 964 & 993 ones if you like!

What little I know indicated that the 9A1 has been very reliable to date showing no signification areas of weakness (although I guess its only been around 1 year now). Sure the 991 GT3 engine is different again so anythings possible.
I believe the CL issue may have been laid to rest from recent information thats been published here from another board. It looks like the excerpt from a press release or tech guide but have yet to verify its authenticity. If correct (which at face value it probably is as the improved CL is mentioned in the press kit) then one hopes that lays that issue to rest (for 991 GT3 owners at least). 996s (including my GT3) had issues with often cracking water overflow/header tanks. All 964/993 factor 220 option LSDs were prone to failure after quite low mileage dependent on use (often they failed by 20k miles some lasted to 40k miles - almost non last longer). The folding sports seats everyone are lamenting the dissaperance of on the US specced cars is as Ive already explained a bit of a red herring too. None of us are getting fixed lightweight bucket racing seats (the folding sports seats are just eye candy IMHO and no comparison to a pukka race seat) but everyone is free to go and buy a pair of recaro SPG to retrofit.

We are as you say all different and approaching this from many angles. I feel Im approaching it as logically as one can making an important purchase, having anticipated the vehicle on the sideline for a long long time, having not bought a new model before but being a long term Porsche fan and owner and always learning on these forums, from club members and magazines about these wonderful cars.

What I have found difficult is wading through the tonnes of baggage on these threads relating to issues and problems with 997 GT3s and speculative opinions which fall outside of valuable critique. Everyone has a right to vent their spleen I understand that, but I cant help but feel much of this is BS rhetoric and spleen venting for that sake only.

Ive been online alot looking at 991 GT3 threads in europe and across the world. Most have focused on digging up relative information and photographs of this new 991 GT3 and few have spent the line count arguing the unknown. Many of these people are posting from germany and in some cases have direct and relevant information to share. If you look at very recent posts on thsi board you will find information on CL, new pictures of 991 GT3 in various colours and much other informative information myself and others have cut and pasted from those other forums onto this board.

I guess I was hoping to find on the RL forum some constructive information on the new 991 GT3 as it comes to light and im a bit frustrated sifting through complaints and hyperbole on a car no one has even driven yet. Looking at the headings on the 991 GT3 board home page one would think Porsche have just landed a lemon. I dont agree or else Id be asking my deposit back. Sometimes from looking at this new model "from afar" (i.e. no investment in prior model GT technology sitting in the garage) one gets a different perspective...

Now, Ive vented my spleen, I feel a bit better so excuse the monologue. Just had to say all that!

mike2727 03-13-2013 09:13 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10298563)
RS seems to be basically the same as the 4.0, but with the tq curve shifted down by 25 ft lbs. RS vs GT3 seems to depend which dyno you believe.

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...ightdyno-1.jpg

Thanks Petevb

Yes they similar just one has more than the other, but the curve is almost the same

Mike

Z356 03-13-2013 10:49 PM


Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10298632)
I will say that there seems to be an opinion, which you have echoed, that somehow the only people who would buy a 991 GT3 are very rich people (you suggested that yesterday) or new Porsche recruits, neither of whom know any better. As with most generalizations, with due respect, I think you are wrong.


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10296503)
In general, Enrique, I understand where you are coming from...Take our your references to 'rich jockey's' (sounds awful like 'Occupy America' speak) and I am with you, brother! I must tell you that some of the BIGGEST proponents of the purest-type 991 gt3 are very wealthy Porsche enthusiasts in these United States!

re: Rich People. Mike, just the opposite. Read what I wrote yesterday to Enrique again! I have nothing but good things to say about the 1%, of which I am a member in good standing. They can be knowledgeable, savvy, critical when they have to be and, on the whole, huge fans & proponents of all previous gt3's models! Some of them are speaking up in this forum...don't ignore what they are saying!

re: New Recruits. Below is verbatim what I have said about 'new recruits'. It is not derogatory in any way and I think it's perfectly valid! "Those of you ordering a 991 gt3 that did not previously invested in a 997 gt3 or RS feel pretty optimistic & excited with all the 'new' technology of this new gt3! I am too! But those here that purchased a 997 .1 and/or .2 gt3 and suffered from these annoying & expensive 'reliability' issues have a much different perspective! It is similar to new recruits going into battle vs the weary & leery front-line veterans!"


Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10298632)
Eduardo, it's difficult to tell from your post whether you are more displeased with the reliability of the current 997 series GT cars or the technology in the new ones. :)

The former. But that is effecting & interfering with the latter. Why is it, we must all ask ourselves, that PCNA is not encouraging us to take the new 991 gt3 to recreational track events (not racing, mind you!)!


Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10298632)
This isn't my first rodeo with Porsche; I've owned them for 25 years. Unless you're suggesting that the GT versions have been especially unreliable relative to the rest of Porsche's lineup, I think I know what I'm getting into.

That is not me suggesting! That is what MANY actual owners of 997 gt3's are indeed suggesting and they have been fairly vocal about it on this and the older gt3 forum!

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ew-recall.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...5-25-12-a.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...-registry.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ited-slip.html

As long as you and others are going in with eyes-wide open, all speed ahead! I wish you only but success with your upcoming order and hope I will be able to toast to your car with drinks at my home in Carmel in August! :thumbsup:

Saludos,
Eduardo

orthojoe 03-13-2013 11:10 PM

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8525/8...195dbd_b_d.jpg

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...ightdyno-1.jpg

I can't be the only one here that has concerns about the big drop in power after 8250 rpms. I was excited about 9k rpms until I saw the dyno charts. It might as well be the same 8500rpm limit from before. I've owned/driven cars that drop power towards redline. It's not as exciting.

aussie jimmy 03-13-2013 11:13 PM

i agree.
maybe it's a safety dampener for the auto tranny?

Mike in CA 03-14-2013 12:13 AM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10299066)
As long as you and others are going in with eyes-wide open, all speed ahead! I wish you only but success with your upcoming order and hope I will be able to toast to your car with drinks at my home in Carmel in August! :thumbsup:

Saludos,
Eduardo

:cheers:

MaxLTV 03-14-2013 02:41 AM


Originally Posted by orthojoe (Post 10299133)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8525/8...195dbd_b_d.jpg

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...ightdyno-1.jpg

I can't be the only one here that has concerns about the big drop in power after 8250 rpms. I was excited about 9k rpms until I saw the dyno charts. It might as well be the same 8500rpm limit from before. I've owned/driven cars that drop power towards redline. It's not as exciting.

That's what I had in mind in the thread about the gearing - sometimes if a power drop is too much, it's worth shifting below redline. To lazy to do the calcs for this case, but it does not look that bad here.

mooty 03-14-2013 02:53 AM

i have all the old gt3/rs's
i am excited to drive the 991gt3/rs as well
the old is great, b/c it's old
the new is great, b/c it's new
however, i think you guys are on drugs saying that the modern 7 and/or 6 are not reliable. there are quite a few of us driving the living daylight out of these cars. they do break, but that's not reliability issue. you drive it hard, you maintain it. a pro tennis player restrings his racuqest often. borg used to bring FIFTY rackets with him to each tournament. if dumpling coolant, FMS, RMS, few blown motor and clutches scare you, they are are not the right audience. you drive them hard, and sh*t happens. i have blown up a few 994 and 964 and even 911 3.2. does that make them UNRELIABLE? try drive a bmw or audi.

StirlingMoss 03-14-2013 05:20 AM

+1

Well said mooty.

Macca 03-14-2013 05:56 AM

Thanks Mooty. Frankly the debate has become quite banal on this new 991 GT3 board I feel. We should name it as "Porsche whippng boy board".

It wasnt till I joined the 991 GT3 thread that I learned how crap the 997 GT3 is LOL. Infact its damn right scary owning a 3.8RS if you read this forum. Wheels falling off and all that. I was so glad I was buying a 991 GT3! I callled my mechanic at the largest Porsche Main Dealer in New Zealand and I said - look whats happening with these wheels falling off the 997.2 GT3/RS? He said, what? We haven't had a single issue (granted there are only say 24 997.2 GT3+RS in NZ).

The most important point you brought to bear is reliability given use. Even though Porsche has clearly sold itself out to the devil and is rapidly sliding down hill and loosing the faith of those on this board (tongue in cheek) they do make a fair priced car you can run hard and fast on road or track and which is reliable and not too temperamental. Anyone remember TVR?

Macca 03-14-2013 06:02 AM

Thanks Mooty. Frankly the debate has become quite banal on this new 991 GT3 board as I have already said. We should name it as "Porsche whippng boy board".

It wasn't till I joined the 991 GT3 thread that I learned how crap the 997.2 GT3 is LOL. Infact its damn right scary owning a 3.8RS if you read this forum. Wheels falling off and all that. I was so glad I was buying a 991 GT3! Maybe they can fix the mistakes in that junk LOL! I callled my mechanic at the largest Porsche Main Dealer in New Zealand and I said - look whats happening with these wheels falling off the 997.2 GT3/RS? He said, what? We haven't had a single issue (granted there are only say 24 997.2 GT3+RS in NZ).

The most important point you brought to bear is reliability given use. Even though Porsche has clearly sold itself out to the devil and is rapidly sliding down hill and loosing the faith of those on this board (tongue in cheek) they do make a fair priced car you can run hard and fast on road or track and which is reliable and not too temperamental. Anyone remember TVR?

Bill_C4S 03-14-2013 06:05 AM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10299617)
Anyone remember TVR?

mosey on over to TVRheads...aka Pistonheads...and you'll find the mother lode of TVR adherents....

Curiously TVR Sagaris are now much sought after collectibles in the UK...

With prices having ~doubled in the past couple of years....

(BTW - Wellington looked magnificent on the Sky HD live feed of the NZ vs Pommes test match yday.....although as a West Islander...hard to know for whom to barrack :) )

Macca 03-14-2013 06:34 AM

Yeah, rare curiosities now after the Russian kid screwed it up. Sagaris probably the most reliable being the last model. Fine looking machines. I would have sworn the press was exaggerating when talking of the reliability issues, that was until I went to LeMans in 2007 with a mate in his Tuscan. He bought it new. It basically burned to the ground within 12 months. On our trip nothing fell off but the engine bearings needed doing shortly after the trip. He still owns it because he has so much invested in it he cant bear to sell it. Hopefully it doubles in price too!

Wellington is a great town and NZ has had a great summer. Your a long way from home Bill. Whate state are you from?

I'm a big fan of Pistonheads. Even have the t shirt! Subscribe to Evo, & Porsche & 911 world etc....

Bill_C4S 03-14-2013 07:07 AM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10299642)
I'm a big fan of Pistonheads. Even have the t shirt! Subscribe to Evo, & Porsche & 911 world etc....

Australian by birth...Victorian by the grace of God :D

and the MCG is still my definition of Mecca....

Evo has been on the must read list since edition 1...subscribed pretty much ever since.

Walking into a Porsche showroom in 1978...knee high to a grasshopper...but that 911SC in red.....yup....that did it.

Macca 03-14-2013 07:42 AM

Mine was a red 911 SC (1983) too. Snap on Evo from edition 1 (1998).

I think you are going to love the 991 GT3. What colour are you thinking. Red?

Bill_C4S 03-14-2013 08:13 AM

Am hoping for the PTS window to open...one of the non metallic blues (voodoo/mexico/riviera) definitely getting some thoughts.

Bit of concern that for the UK PTS on any 991 does not seem open..at least not on the config tool

If such blues are unavailable..then am debating between white/red....maybe even the amaranth metallic red

Expect confirmation of build slot sometime in next two weeks.....deposit confirmed by PCGB...on dealer short list...so maybe this side of New Years.....

So there's still some time to ...cogitate on colour.

Macca 03-14-2013 08:23 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Bill. I am also RHD but not via NZ dealer. I also wanted PTS blue (Turquoise or Maritiime) but could not chance not making the PTS window. Ive attached a pic in maritime? blue someone mocked up to give you an idea. Very sweet. I have chosen to go white instead.

Ive been told allocation will become more clear after 21 March. Porsche look like they be holding all RHD production back in lieu of LHD units. Originally was told July production slot, then that moved to November and now waiting on Porsche to verify quotas/allocations. Probably will end up getting built with the first UK cars in Oct....

911rox 03-14-2013 09:10 AM


Originally Posted by orthojoe (Post 10299133)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8525/8...195dbd_b_d.jpg

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...ightdyno-1.jpg

I can't be the only one here that has concerns about the big drop in power after 8250 rpms. I was excited about 9k rpms until I saw the dyno charts. It might as well be the same 8500rpm limit from before. I've owned/driven cars that drop power towards redline. It's not as exciting.

Maybe this why AP was describing the metallic sound of the engine beyond 8500rpm being emotional... Because its the sound of the engine destroying itself for no notable gain whatsoever... No use having a redline at 9000rpm if the last 700 rpm are just giving you noise, wear and tear....:to_order:

Nizer 03-14-2013 09:25 AM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10299695)
Bill. I am also RHD but not via NZ dealer. I also wanted PTS blue (Turquoise or Maritiime) but could not chance not making the PTS window. Ive attached a pic in maritime? blue someone mocked up to give you an idea. Very sweet. I have chosen to go white instead.

That looks even better than expected.

Macca 03-14-2013 09:28 AM

LOL!

You could say the same thing about the peak hp curve of the 1973RS, 964RS and 993RS and 996.1 GT3 and 996.2 GT3 and 997.1 GT3............not many production cars make their peak hp at they maximum cut off rpm. That would be inviting wear and tear surely. How close to peak rpm can you time your shift without latent over run?

Standard practice is they provide a minimum band of 500rpm after peak before cut out and often more like all the above examples which are around 700 rom safety. Any motorsports tuner worth their salt will tell you this...

maybe Im an idiot but does not the 997.1 GT3 in your avatar produce its peak power (305kw) at 7600 rpm but cut out at 8400 rpm?

911rox 03-14-2013 09:48 AM

Macca, mine is a 997.2 and yes it peaks at 435hp at 7600 but the drop off is like 5 or so hp. The power curve for the car beyond 7600 rpm is virtually horizontal not dropping 50+hp like the new car. Keep in mind that whilst the mezger motors redline at 8400-8500rpm, overrev ranges start at 9500rpm plus....

Macca 03-14-2013 10:00 AM

Apologies Chris, I didn't see your signature.

So the issue is not the 700 odd rpm over run that you also have with your GT3 (and almost eveery 911 Porsche has produced) but the area under the curve/drop off of power after redline?

Im very confused. Given almost everything Im reading on these threads is speculation with a healthy dollop of BS for good measure, can someone please direct me to a copy of the factory 991 GT3 dyno chart? or is that all speculation as well?

There are alot of experts on here. Im certainly not one of them - but I suspect some of these guys should be working for Porsche given what they know LOL!

911rox 03-14-2013 10:05 AM

Lmao... No need for apologies Macca, you've hardly offended! ;)

Yes, the dramatic drop off is the part I find interesting... Some hp loss is expected as an engine can run less efficiently power wise beyond its peak point from what I understand

Would love to see where that chart came from myself, hopefully off a Porsche site for the 991 gt3 curve at the very least althought I'd be guessing the RS curve has been overlayed as I doubt Porsche would compare the two...

savyboy 03-14-2013 10:08 AM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10299742)
Maybe this why AP was describing the metallic sound of the engine beyond 8500rpm being emotional... Because its the sound of the engine destroying itself for no notable gain whatsoever... No use having a redline at 9000rpm if the last 700 rpm are just giving you noise, wear and tear....:to_order:

:p As soon as I saw that dyno chart I thought two things:

1. Ha! It goes to 9000rpm but you only go there if you want to lose power and go slower. More symbolism over substance.
2. Ah-ha! That is where they will differentiate the RS, it will (actually) make power at 9000 rpm (new heads/cams)

They neutered the GT3 to leave room for the GT3RS.


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10299803)
Macca, mine is a 997.2 and yes it peaks at 435hp at 7600 but the drop off is like 5 or so hp. The power curve for the car beyond 7600 rpm is virtually horizontal not dropping 50+hp like the new car. Keep in mind that whilst the mezger motors redline at 8400-8500rpm, overrev ranges start at 9500rpm plus....

Yeppers, and my ex-4.0 made power all the way to 8500 rpm, truth in advertising there! As usual my friend 911rox distills the marketing BS from reality.

P_collector 03-14-2013 10:22 AM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10299803)
Macca, mine is a 997.2 and yes it peaks at 435hp at 7600 but the drop off is like 5 or so hp. The power curve for the car beyond 7600 rpm is virtually horizontal not dropping 50+hp like the new car. Keep in mind that whilst the mezger motors redline at 8400-8500rpm, overrev ranges start at 9500rpm plus....

Exactly..especially the 9500rpm is important..meaning that 10,000 is no problem for the engine..even more is possible but no really healthy..but theoretically possible...

I want to see the new engine at 10,000rpm also...:to_order:

P_collector 03-14-2013 10:25 AM

Does anyone have comparison with the 997.2 3.8 torque etc vs 991 GT3? After all, we should compare these two too..because the 991 GT3 basic should not be compared to a 4.0L...

savyboy 03-14-2013 10:35 AM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10299829)
There are alot of experts on here. Im certainly not one of them - but I suspect some of these guys should be working for Porsche given what they know LOL!

You post that facetiously I suspect? But in honesty, they would have done well to establish enduring enthusiast contacts and act on their recommendations when the .1 GT3's were being designed and spec'ed. Because there are so many things that could have been perfected through the iterations. And weren't. For all the wrong reasons.

"I know best and you vill listen!" It's all marketing BS.

The pursuit of the wallet, and marketing, supercedes all. They see China and Russia blooming and are building cars to sop up rubles and renminbi. Porsche is selling its soul and integrity in this pursuit.

As I've said, enthusiasts are very fortunate to live in a time of wonderful choices. No brainer track-cars for the masses of the year: Factory manufactured 302S (and 302R). Ebay here's one and another. Crate motor $10k, new trans $2-5k.

The new C7 'Vette, the BAC Mono, Caterhams, Radicals, Stohrs...etc, etc.

orthojoe 03-14-2013 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10299829)
Im very confused. Given almost everything Im reading on these threads is speculation with a healthy dollop of BS for good measure, can someone please direct me to a copy of the factory 991 GT3 dyno chart? or is that all speculation as well?

Nobody takes the boxster owner seriously. Skip to 1:06


Nizer 03-14-2013 01:48 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10299847)
:p As soon as I saw that dyno chart I thought two things:

1. Ha! It goes to 9000rpm but you only go there if you want to lose power and go slower. More symbolism over substance.
2. Ah-ha! That is where they will differentiate the RS, it will (actually) make power at 9000 rpm (new heads/cams)

They neutered the GT3 to leave room for the GT3RS.

And if they punch the RS motor - now or later - as some have suggested, it also addresses the torque hole below 4,000RPM where most street driving is done.

Not sure I'd call it neutered but they clearly left a lot on the table for future iterations.

Mike in CA 03-14-2013 01:55 PM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10299742)
Maybe this why AP was describing the metallic sound of the engine beyond 8500rpm being emotional... Because its the sound of the engine destroying itself for no notable gain whatsoever... No use having a redline at 9000rpm if the last 700 rpm are just giving you noise, wear and tear....:to_order:

The new engine is still making more power from 8500 to redline than the 997.1 was making at peak.

StirlingMoss 03-14-2013 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10300437)
The new engine is still making more power from 8500 to redline than the 997.1 was making at peak.

Oh, please stop correcting with fact based truths :D Where is the fun in that? Random accusations and assumptions are so much more fun :D

Petevb 03-14-2013 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by Nizer (Post 10300410)
And if they punch the RS motor - now or later - as some have suggested, it also addresses the torque hole below 4,000RPM where most street driving is done.

Not sure I'd call it neutered but they clearly left a lot on the table for future iterations.

I've got some dynos of cup cars going from 3.6 through 4 liters. Adding displacement alone does shift the whole curve up though the lower end, but it doesn't really change when the torque starts to build quickly. In other words while it's a good thought, I think they would need to do more than just stroke the motor to fill in that hole fully. I wonder if the new motor has variocam, or if it's missing a stage on the multi-stage resonant intake.

I think it's a good thing that the peak power isn't made at redline. Generally if that's where power is made it's great for headline power numbers, but poor for area under the HP curve (witness the V8 M3). Adding the 500 rpm as they have done will let the motor stay in the power band and make the car significantly quicker in the lower gears. Not that holding that power to redline wouldn't be better, but the car will still be much faster with that extra 500 rpm than without it.

As I said before, they seem to have headroom on piston speed to stroke to 4.0L, and I agree they should be able to move the power peak up a bit with a wilder cam, so there seems a likely path for the RS. Perhaps not an RS with a manual, however, as I think you'd still miss the torque without the PDK. Of course they know how to fix that if they want to...

Petevb 03-14-2013 02:32 PM


Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10299847)
They neutered the GT3 to leave room for the GT3RS.

This is what they do. Still one of the biggest things that bothers me about Porsche. They neuter the Cayman to leave room for the 911, etc.

I'm already scheming on how to fit this motor into a new Cayman chassis with the 6 speed manual. It'd probably be slower than the GT3, but damn. You know they have a development car set up like that some place, and it pains me that we'll never see it.

Nizer 03-14-2013 02:53 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10300530)
I've got some dynos of cup cars going from 3.6 through 4 liters. Adding displacement alone does shift the whole curve up though the lower end, but it doesn't really change when the torque starts to build quickly. In other words while it's a good thought, I think they would need to do more than just stroke the motor to fill in that hole fully. I wonder if the new motor has variocam, or if it's missing a stage on the multi-stage resonant intake....

I wouldn't assume the dyno curves for the RS 4.0 and the Cup 4.0 are the same but it sounds like you have the data so easy to compare, and yes, there's more to it than just stroking the motor. Edit: actually, comparing dynos only works if runs were done at the same time on same dyno so somewhat of a mute point.

The new motor has VarioCam Plus and a two stage intake manifold as detailed here: http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/911...l/?gtabindex=2

Whether they're the same, improved, or simplified is unknown at this stage.

Petevb 03-14-2013 03:02 PM


Originally Posted by Nizer (Post 10300591)
The new motor has VarioCam Plus and a two stage intake manifold as detailed here:

So that's the torque difference. The old manifold was 3 stages I believe, so they dropped one stage from the low end.

Cup and street 4.0 dynos are very different in the low end with the variocam.

stevecolletti 03-14-2013 03:38 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10300542)
This is what they do. Still one of the biggest things that bothers me about Porsche. They neuter the Cayman to leave room for the 911, etc.

I'm already scheming on how to fit this motor into a new Cayman chassis with the 6 speed manual. It'd probably be slower than the GT3, but damn. You know they have a development car set up like that some place, and it pains me that we'll never see it.

+1
Great minds :)

StirlingMoss 03-14-2013 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10300542)
I'm already scheming on how to fit this motor into a new Cayman chassis with the 6 speed manual. It'd probably be slower than the GT3, but damn. You know they have a development car set up like that some place, and it pains me that we'll never see it.

I would not be surprised if we see a more track oriented Cayman R'ish model with bits and bobs from the new GT3. Something along the lines of the 968 ClubSport. With the 991 becoming more GT and the new GT3 moving up, there is now space to fill for such a car.

Z356 03-14-2013 04:38 PM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by StirlingMoss (Post 10300843)
I would not be surprised if we see a more track oriented Cayman R'ish model with bits and bobs from the new GT3. Something along the lines of the 968 ClubSport. With the 991 becoming more GT and the new GT3 moving up, there is now space to fill for such a car.

No, a more track oriented Cayman R is NOT where we are being led to by the powers that be. Porsche is going to 'herd' the former gt3 hard-core enthusiast track crowd (at least those with the wallets than can support it) slowly into the more expensive upcoming 960! That is going to be the new 'gt3' for the Porsche equivalent of the Tifosi, if you get my drift!

http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...rrari_fighter/

jumper5836 03-14-2013 04:47 PM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10300886)
No, a more track oriented Cayman R is NOT where we are being led to by the powers that be. Porsche is going to 'herd' the former gt3 hard-core enthusiast track crowd (at least those with the wallets than can support it) slowly into the more expensive upcoming 960! That is going to be the new 'gt3' for the Porsche equivalent of the Tifosi, if you get my drift!

I suspect your right.

I am not sure I even like the look of the new Cayman. Weird looking compared to the new Boxster.

StirlingMoss 03-14-2013 04:51 PM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10300886)
No, a more track oriented Cayman R is NOT where we are being led to by the powers that be. Porsche is going to 'herd' the former gt3 hard-core enthusiast track crowd (at least those with the wallets than can support it) slowly into the more expensive upcoming 960! That is going to be the new 'gt3' for the Porsche equivalent of the Tifosi, if you get my drift!

You think that thing will come with manual and no gizmos? :thumbsup: Never.

The 960 will fill a market niche above the GT3. I am talking about a niche below the GT3 which would fit a light, manual and track focused Cayman. The R was close, but just a first iteration. The bets are on :)

Macca 03-14-2013 04:59 PM

Just to clarify this.

The 991 GT3 power curve that was produced here comes from Porsche? Or is it just supposition?

Just wondered because its talked about like its fact thats all...

Conekilr 03-14-2013 05:00 PM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10300935)
Just to clarify this.

The 991 GT3 power curve that was produced here comes from Porsche? Or is it just supposition?

Just wondered because its talked about like its fact thats all...

Came from Porsche...

StirlingMoss 03-14-2013 05:05 PM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10300935)
Just to clarify this.

The 991 GT3 power curve that was produced here comes from Porsche? Or is it just supposition?

Just wondered because its talked about like its fact thats all...

Isn't everything here facts? Now you disappoint me... :D

Yes, the power curve is in the official GT3 advert video. Unless the video is fake :)

savyboy 03-14-2013 05:13 PM


Originally Posted by StirlingMoss (Post 10300914)
The 960 will fill a market niche above the GT3. I am talking about a niche below the GT3 which would fit a light, manual and track focused Cayman. The R was close, but just a first iteration. The bets are on :)

My bet is with Z356/jumper all day long, everyday. Porsche's actions show where it's interest and future are. They had the chance to create a very special Cayman R, yet chose a lazy parts-bin engineering exercise with the biggest budget going to the marketing hype for the car. Let me be clear- it is the most enthusiast friendly of the Cayman lineup, and if you want a Cayman for spirited use it is the clear choice.

Nor is there a value proposition to the 918, it is a solution to no need. Wholly Rube Goldbergian in concept and execution. A gaudy medallion serving only to advertise excess over reason. An exercise to extract profits. "Full stop", as the new buzz phrase seems to be...

$$$$$$$

Cayenne and 960/918, that is Porsche's future. Don't fight, accept it, it's ok. There are more choices now than ever in every market segment. Just date those offerings though, don't marry them :p

Z356 03-14-2013 05:17 PM


Originally Posted by StirlingMoss (Post 10300914)
You think that thing will come with manual and no gizmos? :thumbsup: Never.

Did I say manual and no gizmos on the FeFi? Or are you making the 'assumptions' you hate others to make on this forum!:banghead:


Originally Posted by StirlingMoss (Post 10300914)
The 960 will fill a market niche above the GT3. I am talking about a niche below the GT3 which would fit a light, manual and track focused Cayman. The R was close, but just a first iteration. The bets are on :)

I had a '12 Spyder, which rivaled the Cayman R even on the 'track'! Ask Pete Stout about this! I have friends with Cayman R's that are trying their best to make it even more road and track worthy! Trust me when I say that Porsche, in practice, is not interested in giving the Boxster/Cayman chassis, motor or transmission an actual 'track-oriented' edge over the equivalent gt3 of the same era! If you were to ask Porsche, in broad terms, what model they would recommend for recreational track use (not racing), they will (in broad terms, after checking with their lawyers) tell you that a gt3 is the preferred tool for that job! So it is not realistic, in my opinion, to expect the 981 Cayman R (if/when it arrives) to fill that track-oriented niche, at least not as it's envisioned currently by Porsche!

Saludos,
Eduardo

orthojoe 03-14-2013 05:19 PM


Originally Posted by orthojoe (Post 10299969)
Nobody takes the boxster owner seriously. Skip to 1:06



Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10300935)
Just to clarify this.

The 991 GT3 power curve that was produced here comes from Porsche? Or is it just supposition?

Just wondered because its talked about like its fact thats all...

Are you serious? You still don't believe it? You honestly think I'm making things up? Did you watch the video and skip to 1:06?
Do I need to change my avatar and remove my sig to get any credibility around here?

Macca 03-14-2013 05:33 PM

Thanks orthojoe. I understand now where it was lifted from. Clever detective work!

StirlingMoss 03-14-2013 06:47 PM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10300971)
Did I say manual and no gizmos on the FeFi? Or are you making the 'assumptions' you hate others to make on this forum!:banghead:

No, you did not say that, I said that :)

I am making the assumption that the 960 will get PDK only while a more track oriented 981 "clubsport" will have a manual option. Hence this could become an alternative to those who want a more involving and challenging road/track car.

I waiting with anticipation for the 981 Spyder and hope that, if it arrives, will be even more brilliant than the outgoing Spyder.

MM3.9GT3 03-14-2013 06:47 PM


Originally Posted by orthojoe (Post 10300976)
Are you serious? You still don't believe it? You honestly think I'm making things up? Did you watch the video and skip to 1:06?
Do I need to change my avatar and remove my sig to get any credibility around here?

Thanks for the information and the video. As for those who believe that you produced a fake video, just put them on the ignore list, or think of it as a compliment for highly skilled and professional work on par with Porsche.

brake dust 03-14-2013 11:18 PM


No, a more track oriented Cayman R is NOT where we are being led to by the powers that be. Porsche is going to 'herd' the former gt3 hard-core enthusiast track crowd (at least those with the wallets than can support it) slowly into the more expensive upcoming 960! That is going to be the new 'gt3' for the Porsche equivalent of the Tifosi, if you get my drift!
You may be right! Will the 991 RSR be running the Mezger for one or 2 years? We could very well see the transition to the 960 in a couple of years.

Z356 03-15-2013 01:19 AM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by StirlingMoss (Post 10301191)
I (am) waiting with anticipation for the 981 Spyder and hope that, if it arrives, will be even more brilliant than the outgoing Spyder.

Well, I got news on that front which was leaked to me by a close friend in Zuffenhausen that is working on the 981 Spyder project. If you wanted 'involving and challenging', I believe this model will meet your expectations! See the spy shots of it taken outside a cafe in the Stuttgart suburb of Fellbach. It will keep the 987's light weight canvas top, although this one will be easier to put up & down! It has taken three years to come up with this innovative design, although it looks suspiciously similar to one previously used on 356's in the last century! But Porsche says the design is 'mostly new'. The really amazing technology here is the 'Porsche Active Door Steering', an electromechanical system never seen before...at least not in the past 50 years! The system ingeniously opens both driver AND passenger doors at speed to give better agility to the car and increase 'dramatically' turn-in capability! For example, you will get a thrill of a lifetime as the driver's door opens as you approach 5 at Laguna Seca. It makes that turn truly memorable! And you will positively love the choreography of the doors - opening & closing in quick succession - as your 981 Spyder takes Corkscrew's epic Left-Right turns! This 981 Spyder will simply take you to a higher level of sensory overload than you have ever experienced before in or on a Porsche!

My German contact overheard Andreas Prueninger say that Porsche engineers can change the angle of the doors by up to 1.5 degrees (or was that 15 degrees?) in regular mode, which doesn’t sound like much but the effect is tremendous! It will also feature a 'Hooligan Mode' so that you can pull a paddle (Porsche does love paddles!) and both doors will fling open simultaneously to 90 degrees at speeds not to exceed 65 mph! He guarantees 'donuts' on that...or some other kind of flat pastry, a 'Bialy' is what I think he called it! Using this special feature is not recommended for beginners and this 'paddle' might not be offered on the US spec model! Sorry OrthoJoe. AP was heard to say that 'it simply didn't make sense not to use all these systems to take on all the other competitors out there'. One more thing, the 981 Spyder's trunks (front & rear) have been expanded so you can fit up to FIFTY tennis rackets. This will make both Mooty & Borg very happy!

Brilliant? Yes that too! Rennlisters! You saw it and heard it here first!

Saludos,
Eduardo

tripleblack 03-15-2013 05:20 AM

Humor! Post of the month :)

P_collector 03-15-2013 06:43 AM

just wanted to get back a bit on the title of the thread..and look what jumper5836 wrote in the other thread...


AP said in the Top gear interview 2010 - "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging"
http://www.topgear.com/uk/porsche/911/road-test/gt3-rs


He also said
"The manual gearbox in the GT3 is the best match for the purist."
http://www.edmunds.com/porsche/911/2010/road-test1.html

From 06 March 2013 interview he said in this interview when talking about why they choose PDK.

"And on a race track the PDK gains three-quarters of a car length with every shift, so after a long straight you’re ahead of the other car and can turn-in in front of him."

Thanks Jumper for the good "journalistic research work" :)

P_collector 03-15-2013 07:08 AM


Originally Posted by brake dust (Post 10301879)
You may be right! Will the 991 RSR be running the Mezger for one or 2 years? We could very well see the transition to the 960 in a couple of years.

Exactly...thats also my guess...which could/would explain APs hesitation on the confirmation of the 991 gT3 engine in race cars.

I already mentioned here my guess, Porsche will continue with the current 997 - 991 CUP engine for another 2-3 years max..and then put the 960 with B8 in direct competition to the 458 etc..I think then it will destroy everything on the track..:D

fun2k 03-15-2013 08:32 AM

Z356i have never laughed this loud in front of a computer screen before,great post.
On a serious note I already put a deposit down for the 991 but not because of APs self contradicting marketing bs, they will never talk negative about their own cars its a business.

911rox 03-15-2013 08:40 AM

Lmao... Loved it z356, loved it! Are they taking deposits yet?

P_collector 03-15-2013 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by fun2k (Post 10302342)
Z356i have never laughed this loud in front of a computer screen before,great post.
On a serious note I already put a deposit down for the 991 but not because of APs self contradicting marketing bs, they will never talk negative about their own cars its a business.

Congratulations on your order:)

What we ahve been asking for/claiming - is not AP to talk negative about any Porsche..what we just discovered is that AP has been contradicting himself quite a lot..this has nothing to do with talking negative..

:cheers:

Bill_C4S 03-16-2013 11:38 AM

Autocar - Quotes from AP and Wolfgang Hatz
 
from this week's Autocar:

"Preuninger revealed that the (RWS) set-up was originally being developed for "two future models" but the process was "speeded up" so it could make its debut on the GT3."

one of these future models was confirmed by Wolfgang Hatz as being the 918 "the 918 uses the same (as the 991 GT3) rear-wheel steering system, and it works very well. The high-speed stability that it provides is truly amazing."

"Preuninger said he has another five months of "tweaking" before the GT3 launch in July"

StirlingMoss 03-16-2013 01:25 PM


Originally Posted by Bill_C4S (Post 10305359)
"Preuninger said he has another five months of "tweaking" before the GT3 launch in July"

OMG! There is going to be rear wheels wobbling left and right all over YouTube :D

chuckbdc 03-16-2013 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10302092)
Well, I got news on that front which was leaked to me by a close friend in Zuffenhausen that is working on the 981 Spyder project. If you wanted 'involving and challenging', I believe this model will meet your expectations! See the spy shots of it taken outside a cafe in the Stuttgart suburb of Fellbach. .....
Brilliant? Yes that too! Rennlisters! You saw it and heard it here first!

Saludos,
Eduardo

Yeah but its PDK only. Not sufficiently raw and pure. Needs a 901 tranny to stir.


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