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P_collector 03-14-2013 10:22 AM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10299803)
Macca, mine is a 997.2 and yes it peaks at 435hp at 7600 but the drop off is like 5 or so hp. The power curve for the car beyond 7600 rpm is virtually horizontal not dropping 50+hp like the new car. Keep in mind that whilst the mezger motors redline at 8400-8500rpm, overrev ranges start at 9500rpm plus....

Exactly..especially the 9500rpm is important..meaning that 10,000 is no problem for the engine..even more is possible but no really healthy..but theoretically possible...

I want to see the new engine at 10,000rpm also...:to_order:

P_collector 03-14-2013 10:25 AM

Does anyone have comparison with the 997.2 3.8 torque etc vs 991 GT3? After all, we should compare these two too..because the 991 GT3 basic should not be compared to a 4.0L...

savyboy 03-14-2013 10:35 AM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10299829)
There are alot of experts on here. Im certainly not one of them - but I suspect some of these guys should be working for Porsche given what they know LOL!

You post that facetiously I suspect? But in honesty, they would have done well to establish enduring enthusiast contacts and act on their recommendations when the .1 GT3's were being designed and spec'ed. Because there are so many things that could have been perfected through the iterations. And weren't. For all the wrong reasons.

"I know best and you vill listen!" It's all marketing BS.

The pursuit of the wallet, and marketing, supercedes all. They see China and Russia blooming and are building cars to sop up rubles and renminbi. Porsche is selling its soul and integrity in this pursuit.

As I've said, enthusiasts are very fortunate to live in a time of wonderful choices. No brainer track-cars for the masses of the year: Factory manufactured 302S (and 302R). Ebay here's one and another. Crate motor $10k, new trans $2-5k.

The new C7 'Vette, the BAC Mono, Caterhams, Radicals, Stohrs...etc, etc.

orthojoe 03-14-2013 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by Macca (Post 10299829)
Im very confused. Given almost everything Im reading on these threads is speculation with a healthy dollop of BS for good measure, can someone please direct me to a copy of the factory 991 GT3 dyno chart? or is that all speculation as well?

Nobody takes the boxster owner seriously. Skip to 1:06


Nizer 03-14-2013 01:48 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10299847)
:p As soon as I saw that dyno chart I thought two things:

1. Ha! It goes to 9000rpm but you only go there if you want to lose power and go slower. More symbolism over substance.
2. Ah-ha! That is where they will differentiate the RS, it will (actually) make power at 9000 rpm (new heads/cams)

They neutered the GT3 to leave room for the GT3RS.

And if they punch the RS motor - now or later - as some have suggested, it also addresses the torque hole below 4,000RPM where most street driving is done.

Not sure I'd call it neutered but they clearly left a lot on the table for future iterations.

Mike in CA 03-14-2013 01:55 PM


Originally Posted by 911rox (Post 10299742)
Maybe this why AP was describing the metallic sound of the engine beyond 8500rpm being emotional... Because its the sound of the engine destroying itself for no notable gain whatsoever... No use having a redline at 9000rpm if the last 700 rpm are just giving you noise, wear and tear....:to_order:

The new engine is still making more power from 8500 to redline than the 997.1 was making at peak.

StirlingMoss 03-14-2013 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by Mike in CA (Post 10300437)
The new engine is still making more power from 8500 to redline than the 997.1 was making at peak.

Oh, please stop correcting with fact based truths :D Where is the fun in that? Random accusations and assumptions are so much more fun :D

Petevb 03-14-2013 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by Nizer (Post 10300410)
And if they punch the RS motor - now or later - as some have suggested, it also addresses the torque hole below 4,000RPM where most street driving is done.

Not sure I'd call it neutered but they clearly left a lot on the table for future iterations.

I've got some dynos of cup cars going from 3.6 through 4 liters. Adding displacement alone does shift the whole curve up though the lower end, but it doesn't really change when the torque starts to build quickly. In other words while it's a good thought, I think they would need to do more than just stroke the motor to fill in that hole fully. I wonder if the new motor has variocam, or if it's missing a stage on the multi-stage resonant intake.

I think it's a good thing that the peak power isn't made at redline. Generally if that's where power is made it's great for headline power numbers, but poor for area under the HP curve (witness the V8 M3). Adding the 500 rpm as they have done will let the motor stay in the power band and make the car significantly quicker in the lower gears. Not that holding that power to redline wouldn't be better, but the car will still be much faster with that extra 500 rpm than without it.

As I said before, they seem to have headroom on piston speed to stroke to 4.0L, and I agree they should be able to move the power peak up a bit with a wilder cam, so there seems a likely path for the RS. Perhaps not an RS with a manual, however, as I think you'd still miss the torque without the PDK. Of course they know how to fix that if they want to...

Petevb 03-14-2013 02:32 PM


Originally Posted by savyboy (Post 10299847)
They neutered the GT3 to leave room for the GT3RS.

This is what they do. Still one of the biggest things that bothers me about Porsche. They neuter the Cayman to leave room for the 911, etc.

I'm already scheming on how to fit this motor into a new Cayman chassis with the 6 speed manual. It'd probably be slower than the GT3, but damn. You know they have a development car set up like that some place, and it pains me that we'll never see it.

Nizer 03-14-2013 02:53 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10300530)
I've got some dynos of cup cars going from 3.6 through 4 liters. Adding displacement alone does shift the whole curve up though the lower end, but it doesn't really change when the torque starts to build quickly. In other words while it's a good thought, I think they would need to do more than just stroke the motor to fill in that hole fully. I wonder if the new motor has variocam, or if it's missing a stage on the multi-stage resonant intake....

I wouldn't assume the dyno curves for the RS 4.0 and the Cup 4.0 are the same but it sounds like you have the data so easy to compare, and yes, there's more to it than just stroking the motor. Edit: actually, comparing dynos only works if runs were done at the same time on same dyno so somewhat of a mute point.

The new motor has VarioCam Plus and a two stage intake manifold as detailed here: http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/911...l/?gtabindex=2

Whether they're the same, improved, or simplified is unknown at this stage.

Petevb 03-14-2013 03:02 PM


Originally Posted by Nizer (Post 10300591)
The new motor has VarioCam Plus and a two stage intake manifold as detailed here:

So that's the torque difference. The old manifold was 3 stages I believe, so they dropped one stage from the low end.

Cup and street 4.0 dynos are very different in the low end with the variocam.

stevecolletti 03-14-2013 03:38 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10300542)
This is what they do. Still one of the biggest things that bothers me about Porsche. They neuter the Cayman to leave room for the 911, etc.

I'm already scheming on how to fit this motor into a new Cayman chassis with the 6 speed manual. It'd probably be slower than the GT3, but damn. You know they have a development car set up like that some place, and it pains me that we'll never see it.

+1
Great minds :)

StirlingMoss 03-14-2013 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by Petevb (Post 10300542)
I'm already scheming on how to fit this motor into a new Cayman chassis with the 6 speed manual. It'd probably be slower than the GT3, but damn. You know they have a development car set up like that some place, and it pains me that we'll never see it.

I would not be surprised if we see a more track oriented Cayman R'ish model with bits and bobs from the new GT3. Something along the lines of the 968 ClubSport. With the 991 becoming more GT and the new GT3 moving up, there is now space to fill for such a car.

Z356 03-14-2013 04:38 PM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by StirlingMoss (Post 10300843)
I would not be surprised if we see a more track oriented Cayman R'ish model with bits and bobs from the new GT3. Something along the lines of the 968 ClubSport. With the 991 becoming more GT and the new GT3 moving up, there is now space to fill for such a car.

No, a more track oriented Cayman R is NOT where we are being led to by the powers that be. Porsche is going to 'herd' the former gt3 hard-core enthusiast track crowd (at least those with the wallets than can support it) slowly into the more expensive upcoming 960! That is going to be the new 'gt3' for the Porsche equivalent of the Tifosi, if you get my drift!

http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...rrari_fighter/

jumper5836 03-14-2013 04:47 PM


Originally Posted by Z356 (Post 10300886)
No, a more track oriented Cayman R is NOT where we are being led to by the powers that be. Porsche is going to 'herd' the former gt3 hard-core enthusiast track crowd (at least those with the wallets than can support it) slowly into the more expensive upcoming 960! That is going to be the new 'gt3' for the Porsche equivalent of the Tifosi, if you get my drift!

I suspect your right.

I am not sure I even like the look of the new Cayman. Weird looking compared to the new Boxster.


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