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Old 03-13-2013, 07:22 PM
  #91  
Mike in CA
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Originally Posted by -eztrader- View Post
Driving the car first isn't a great option....

Each dealer will have a limited allocation - -and the early cars are most likely already spoken for.

later on - if you happen to find a dealer with a car in stock - good luck getting a test drive.

Fact is - if you want this car - you need to act now - or soon . . .. .and that doesn't include a test drive.

I went out today and drove a pdk carrera S, and and a pdk turbo S - - but not sure how much that really tells me about the new GT3
You're right; I'm unlikely to be able to drive the car myself before ordering one. But plenty of auto journalists and magazines will do so, and some have established enough credibility that I feel comfortable with their feedback. So when I say drive, I mean that as potential buyers we will at least have input from independant sources about the car's driving characteristics and performance, while at present we have basically nothing but a press release.

In some ways, I don't need to be convinced. I've driven and autocrossed a PDK Carrera S for 4 years. I'm imagining an improved chassis with stiffer suspension, bigger brakes, wider wheels and tires, an enhanced PDK, and 100 more HP. A fun, impressive car is a foregone conclusion.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:25 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
I personally, from what I have heard ex factory, do not believe a manual transmission was ever a real contender for the 991 GT3.
Well, that is not the whole story. Not that long ago we heard the CEO of Porsche, Matthias Muller, tell us in a major US publication that the upcoming 991 gt3 WOULD have a manual transmission:

"Indeed, if you look at Porsche's claimed performance and efficiency numbers, the PDK is clearly the higher-performance transmission of the two -- both the Carrera and Carrera S models with the PDK are quicker to 60 mph and more fuel efficient than the stick-shift equipped versions. But as long as the customer asks for it, says Muller, Porsche will build a stick-shift 911. The next GT3, he says, will not have a PDK transmission."

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/c...#ixzz2NSLjnJsj

Mind you, a few weeks later we already knew that Herr Muller was somewhat 'out of the loop', that his statements meant nothing, and that PDK would be offered on the 991 gt3! See my thread below:

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...after-all.html

Macca, PDK on the 991 gt3 is not what has many here concerned! What has some alarmed, some disappointed and some angry is a COMBINATION of PDK ONLY (no manual choice), the continuation of the dreaded Center Lock Wheels, the added complexity of 'Porsche Torque Vectoring Plus' and 'Rear Wheel Steering', the inability to order 'Sport Bucket Seats' in the US and the inexcusable WEIGHT increase on this 991 gt3!

I think I understand your point of view and those of folks like 'Mike in CA' & others. But don't underestimate the frustrations of many in this forum re: the CL failures, the Catastrophic Coolant Hose Coupling Failure, the PCCB's issues, the RMS oil drips, the weak/ineffective Limited Slip Differential, etc on their .1 & .2 997 gt3's. Just take a cursory look at the many sticky's on the gt3 forum at the top of the page warning owners of these gt3 specific problems!!! And if we have one fatality as the result of any of these defects, all bets are off!

Those of you ordering a 991 gt3 that did not previously invested in a 997 gt3 or RS feel pretty optimistic & excited with all the 'new' technology of this new gt3! I am too! But those here that purchased a 997 .1 and/or .2 gt3 and suffered from these annoying & expensive 'reliability' issues have a much different perspective! It is similar to new recruits going into battle vs the weary & leery front-line veterans! As long as we all recognize where each camp is coming from, it will be easier for all of us to interpret what each group writes and posts in this great RL forum. My dos centavos, for what is worth!

Saludos,
Eduardo
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:26 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Petevb View Post
So I just saw that someone posted a power band for the new motor, and it's now pretty clear to me that we're never getting a manual with this motor.

The big change vs the street 997 GT3 motors is a lack of low end torque. Look at the 991 overlayed with an RS 4.0, and you can see what I mean:


The 991 has a 2000 rpm torque hole vs any of the street 997 GT3s.

With a PDK this doesn't matter- the 4500 rpm torque band is plenty wide enough that the gearbox can always downshift into the power band. With a manual, however, shifting takes time, and the extra flexibility to carry a higher gear is needed.

The new 991 powerband actually looks almost the same as a 997 cup car's. The cup car also doesn't have torque until 4500 rpm, and it also doesn't need it because it has a sequential gearbox. The cup car motor is also significantly lighter and less complex than the street car, in part because they can eliminate the variocam system from the cup motor.

It seems clear to me Porsche has made the same tradeoff here: simplify and lighten the motor, but at the expense of low end torque. That's a good trade-off with an automated gearbox, but not one you'd make with a manual. I'm sure this is some of what Preuninger was saying when he said the manual and PDK versions would be significantly different. Unfortunately it also means that if an RS was to offer a manual option, it would probably also need to come with a more complex and heavier motor to make it work well.

After seeing this, I'm not holding my breath.
Very interesting, not used to that with my "HYBRID" LOL

Petevb would it be possible to make an overlay including the 997.2 GT3 /GT3RS torque curve as well ?

Thanks
Mike
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:34 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Z356 View Post
Well, that is not the whole story. Not that long ago we heard the CEO of Porsche, Matthias Muller, tell us in a major US publication that the upcoming 991 gt3 WOULD have a manual transmission:

"Indeed, if you look at Porsche's claimed performance and efficiency numbers, the PDK is clearly the higher-performance transmission of the two -- both the Carrera and Carrera S models with the PDK are quicker to 60 mph and more fuel efficient than the stick-shift equipped versions. But as long as the customer asks for it, says Muller, Porsche will build a stick-shift 911. The next GT3, he says, will not have a PDK transmission."

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/features/c...#ixzz2NSLjnJsj

Mind you, a few weeks later we already knew that Herr Muller was somewhat 'out of the loop', that his statements meant nothing, and that PDK would be offered on the 991 gt3! See my thread below:

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...after-all.html

Macca, PDK on the 991 gt3 is not what has many here concerned! What has some alarmed, some disappointed and some angry is a COMBINATION of PDK ONLY (no manual choice), the continuation of the dreaded Center Lock Wheels, the added complexity of 'Porsche Torque Vectoring Plus' and 'Rear Wheel Steering', the inability to order 'Sport Bucket Seats' in the US and the inexcusable WEIGHT increase on this 991 gt3!

I think I understand your point of view and those of folks like 'Mike in CA' & others. But don't underestimate the frustrations of many in this forum re: the CL failures, the Catastrophic Coolant Hose Coupling Failure, the PCCB's issues, the RMS oil drips, the weak/ineffective Limited Slip Differential, etc on their .1 & .2 997 gt3's. Just take a cursory look at the many sticky's on the gt3 forum at the top of the page warning owners of these gt3 specific problems!!! And if we have one fatality as the result of any of these defects, all bets are off!

Those of you ordering a 991 gt3 that did not previously invested in a 997 gt3 or RS feel pretty optimistic & excited with all the 'new' technology of this new gt3! I am too! But those here that purchased a 997 .1 and/or .2 gt3 and suffered from these annoying & expensive 'reliability' issues have a much different perspective! It is similar to new recruits going into battle vs the weary & leery front-line veterans! As long as we all recognize where each camp is coming from, it will be easier for all of us to interpret what each group writes and posts in this great RL forum. My dos centavos, for what is worth!

Saludos,
Eduardo
I agree, eventhough I have not owned a GT3 before, I know enough people that have had issues mentioned by you, which makes me think twice before I make the decision
For me it will be important to see what maintenance schedules Porsche will come up with for the PDK, CL, RWS etc for track miles (like what they have fo rthe 997.2 CL's), this will be a very good indicator for where new owners can expect expenses in the future
That is besides the bucket seat saga LOL

Mike
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:38 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by mike2727 View Post
Petevb would it be possible to make an overlay including the 997.2 GT3 /GT3RS torque curve as well ?
RS seems to be basically the same as the 4.0, but with the tq curve shifted down by 25 ft lbs. RS vs GT3 seems to depend which dyno you believe.

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Old 03-13-2013, 08:04 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Z356 View Post
Macca, PDK on the 991 gt3 is not what has many here concerned! What has some alarmed, some disappointed and some angry is a COMBINATION of PDK ONLY (no manual choice), the continuation of the dreaded Center Lock Wheels, the added complexity of 'Porsche Torque Vectoring Plus' and 'Rear Wheel Steering', the inability to order 'Sport Bucket Seats' in the US and the inexcusable WEIGHT increase on this 991 gt3!

I think I understand your point of view and those of folks like 'Mike in CA' & others. But don't underestimate the frustrations of many in this forum re: the CL failures, the Catastrophic Coolant Hose Coupling Failure, the PCCB's issues, the RMS oil drips, the weak/ineffective Limited Slip Differential, etc on their .1 & .2 997 gt3's. Just take a cursory look at the many sticky's on the gt3 forum at the top of the page warning owners of these gt3 specific problems!!! And if we have one fatality as the result of any of these defects, all bets are off!

Those of you ordering a 991 gt3 that did not previously invested in a 997 gt3 or RS feel pretty optimistic & excited with all the 'new' technology of this new gt3! I am too! But those here that purchased a 997 .1 and/or .2 gt3 and suffered from these annoying & expensive 'reliability' issues have a much different perspective! It is similar to new recruits going into battle vs the weary & leery front-line veterans! As long as we all recognize where each camp is coming from, it will be easier for all of us to interpret what each group writes and posts in this great RL forum. My dos centavos, for what is worth!

Saludos,
Eduardo
Eduardo, it's difficult to tell from your post whether you are more displeased with the reliability of the current 997 series GT cars or the technology in the new ones.

There have been many excellent posts addressing some of the issues you raise so I'm not going to rehash those discussions. I will say that there seems to be an opinion, which you have echoed, that somehow the only people who would buy a 991 GT3 are very rich people (you suggested that yesterday) or new Porsche recruits, neither of whom know any better. As with most generalizations, with due respect, I think you are wrong.

This isn't my first rodeo with Porsche; I've owned them for almost 30 years. Unless you're suggesting that the GT versions have been especially unreliable relative to the rest of Porsche's lineup, I think I know what I'm getting into. I've owned a bulletproof PDK car for 4 years so I'm not afraid of that tech. RWS and PTV are quite straightforward from what I've read and experienced (PTV on my Cayenne) and compared to many other systems in a modern car, are fairly simple in their operation. CL's may not be ideal on a road car but the system has reportedly been upgraded. The Sport Bucket issue seems pretty silly right now, but it's months until production and that may yet be addressed.

Although I have my contrary moments, I'm generally a glass half-full person. Rather than focusing on the failings of the previous car and suspicion about the new one, I look back on 30 years of enjoyment owning and driving Porsches, and forward to what on paper looks to be a tremendously impressive car. I understand that some people are disappointed. There comes a time though, when you either accept the change or decide it's not for you and move on to something else. And that's my dos centavos, for what it's worth.

Last edited by Mike in CA; 03-13-2013 at 10:13 PM. Reason: corrected my math!
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:38 PM
  #97  
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Z356.

Unlike Mike Im not coming from a position of experience in new Porsche ownership. The newest Porsche I ever bought was 5 years old at the time and I went in "eyes wide open" knowing already the follies of that model - and that was only 13 years ago.

I accept when I buy a brand new just released Blackberry Z10 or iPhone 5 (as examples) that there will be bugs and often a need for firmware revisions. I understand also that when buying the latest Porsche 911 GT3 based on a new platform that there may also be a few follies I have to endure as part of the new adopter experience.

Im not as educated as may here including yourself on the 997 GT3 follies. I can tell you all about the 964 & 993 ones if you like!

What little I know indicated that the 9A1 has been very reliable to date showing no signification areas of weakness (although I guess its only been around 1 year now). Sure the 991 GT3 engine is different again so anythings possible.
I believe the CL issue may have been laid to rest from recent information thats been published here from another board. It looks like the excerpt from a press release or tech guide but have yet to verify its authenticity. If correct (which at face value it probably is as the improved CL is mentioned in the press kit) then one hopes that lays that issue to rest (for 991 GT3 owners at least). 996s (including my GT3) had issues with often cracking water overflow/header tanks. All 964/993 factor 220 option LSDs were prone to failure after quite low mileage dependent on use (often they failed by 20k miles some lasted to 40k miles - almost non last longer). The folding sports seats everyone are lamenting the dissaperance of on the US specced cars is as Ive already explained a bit of a red herring too. None of us are getting fixed lightweight bucket racing seats (the folding sports seats are just eye candy IMHO and no comparison to a pukka race seat) but everyone is free to go and buy a pair of recaro SPG to retrofit.

We are as you say all different and approaching this from many angles. I feel Im approaching it as logically as one can making an important purchase, having anticipated the vehicle on the sideline for a long long time, having not bought a new model before but being a long term Porsche fan and owner and always learning on these forums, from club members and magazines about these wonderful cars.

What I have found difficult is wading through the tonnes of baggage on these threads relating to issues and problems with 997 GT3s and speculative opinions which fall outside of valuable critique. Everyone has a right to vent their spleen I understand that, but I cant help but feel much of this is BS rhetoric and spleen venting for that sake only.

Ive been online alot looking at 991 GT3 threads in europe and across the world. Most have focused on digging up relative information and photographs of this new 991 GT3 and few have spent the line count arguing the unknown. Many of these people are posting from germany and in some cases have direct and relevant information to share. If you look at very recent posts on thsi board you will find information on CL, new pictures of 991 GT3 in various colours and much other informative information myself and others have cut and pasted from those other forums onto this board.

I guess I was hoping to find on the RL forum some constructive information on the new 991 GT3 as it comes to light and im a bit frustrated sifting through complaints and hyperbole on a car no one has even driven yet. Looking at the headings on the 991 GT3 board home page one would think Porsche have just landed a lemon. I dont agree or else Id be asking my deposit back. Sometimes from looking at this new model "from afar" (i.e. no investment in prior model GT technology sitting in the garage) one gets a different perspective...

Now, Ive vented my spleen, I feel a bit better so excuse the monologue. Just had to say all that!
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:13 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Petevb View Post
RS seems to be basically the same as the 4.0, but with the tq curve shifted down by 25 ft lbs. RS vs GT3 seems to depend which dyno you believe.

Thanks Petevb

Yes they similar just one has more than the other, but the curve is almost the same

Mike
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:49 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
I will say that there seems to be an opinion, which you have echoed, that somehow the only people who would buy a 991 GT3 are very rich people (you suggested that yesterday) or new Porsche recruits, neither of whom know any better. As with most generalizations, with due respect, I think you are wrong.
Originally Posted by Z356 View Post
In general, Enrique, I understand where you are coming from...Take our your references to 'rich jockey's' (sounds awful like 'Occupy America' speak) and I am with you, brother! I must tell you that some of the BIGGEST proponents of the purest-type 991 gt3 are very wealthy Porsche enthusiasts in these United States!
re: Rich People. Mike, just the opposite. Read what I wrote yesterday to Enrique again! I have nothing but good things to say about the 1%, of which I am a member in good standing. They can be knowledgeable, savvy, critical when they have to be and, on the whole, huge fans & proponents of all previous gt3's models! Some of them are speaking up in this forum...don't ignore what they are saying!

re: New Recruits. Below is verbatim what I have said about 'new recruits'. It is not derogatory in any way and I think it's perfectly valid! "Those of you ordering a 991 gt3 that did not previously invested in a 997 gt3 or RS feel pretty optimistic & excited with all the 'new' technology of this new gt3! I am too! But those here that purchased a 997 .1 and/or .2 gt3 and suffered from these annoying & expensive 'reliability' issues have a much different perspective! It is similar to new recruits going into battle vs the weary & leery front-line veterans!"

Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
Eduardo, it's difficult to tell from your post whether you are more displeased with the reliability of the current 997 series GT cars or the technology in the new ones.
The former. But that is effecting & interfering with the latter. Why is it, we must all ask ourselves, that PCNA is not encouraging us to take the new 991 gt3 to recreational track events (not racing, mind you!)!

Originally Posted by Mike in CA View Post
This isn't my first rodeo with Porsche; I've owned them for 25 years. Unless you're suggesting that the GT versions have been especially unreliable relative to the rest of Porsche's lineup, I think I know what I'm getting into.
That is not me suggesting! That is what MANY actual owners of 997 gt3's are indeed suggesting and they have been fairly vocal about it on this and the older gt3 forum!

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ew-recall.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...5-25-12-a.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...-registry.html

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ited-slip.html

As long as you and others are going in with eyes-wide open, all speed ahead! I wish you only but success with your upcoming order and hope I will be able to toast to your car with drinks at my home in Carmel in August!

Saludos,
Eduardo
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:10 PM
  #100  
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I can't be the only one here that has concerns about the big drop in power after 8250 rpms. I was excited about 9k rpms until I saw the dyno charts. It might as well be the same 8500rpm limit from before. I've owned/driven cars that drop power towards redline. It's not as exciting.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:13 PM
  #101  
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i agree.
maybe it's a safety dampener for the auto tranny?
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Old 03-14-2013, 12:13 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Z356 View Post
As long as you and others are going in with eyes-wide open, all speed ahead! I wish you only but success with your upcoming order and hope I will be able to toast to your car with drinks at my home in Carmel in August!

Saludos,
Eduardo
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:41 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by orthojoe View Post




I can't be the only one here that has concerns about the big drop in power after 8250 rpms. I was excited about 9k rpms until I saw the dyno charts. It might as well be the same 8500rpm limit from before. I've owned/driven cars that drop power towards redline. It's not as exciting.
That's what I had in mind in the thread about the gearing - sometimes if a power drop is too much, it's worth shifting below redline. To lazy to do the calcs for this case, but it does not look that bad here.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:53 AM
  #104  
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i have all the old gt3/rs's
i am excited to drive the 991gt3/rs as well
the old is great, b/c it's old
the new is great, b/c it's new
however, i think you guys are on drugs saying that the modern 7 and/or 6 are not reliable. there are quite a few of us driving the living daylight out of these cars. they do break, but that's not reliability issue. you drive it hard, you maintain it. a pro tennis player restrings his racuqest often. borg used to bring FIFTY rackets with him to each tournament. if dumpling coolant, FMS, RMS, few blown motor and clutches scare you, they are are not the right audience. you drive them hard, and sh*t happens. i have blown up a few 994 and 964 and even 911 3.2. does that make them UNRELIABLE? try drive a bmw or audi.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:20 AM
  #105  
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+1

Well said mooty.
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