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Old 07-08-2019, 08:56 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
Nothing to do with exhaust sound. You're making a false equivalency. BTW, the new RSR is mid-engine...

My point is that the sound of the car is purely a result of function. They don't care about wasting time/energy/money to force the car to sound a certain way. They build the car to perform and how it sounds is just how it sounds.
Agreed. Have you heard the 919 from the cabin? Sounds like a power drill at 10000 rpm.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:07 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by djcxxx View Post
ĎMaybe not now if your response is typical of current buyers, but that was definitely not the case in past generations of 911 owners.
Times have changed. China is the largest market for Porsche. "GT" is now a brand or model variant. The model lineup is totally different, Boxster, Cayman, Macan, Panny and even electric. Sure there are some real drivers and gear heads out there but I'd argue we are a smaller % of their profit margin than we'd all like to think.

Not faulting Porsche. They are doing what they need to do for shareholders, that's their job. But, I expect cars to become less driver focused and more influencer focused over time so long as they make more profit.

So even more reason to get out and drive, track, autox our amazing cars that we have today.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:50 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by iphilips View Post
.....Not faulting Porsche. They are doing what they need to do for shareholders, that's their job. But, I expect cars to become less driver focused and more influencer focused over time so long as they make more profit........
I donno...they didn't want to go back to MT but did so due to pressure from the real drivers vs the "influencers". Certainly going MT is no longer a mass market, profit-driven option, but really just someting for a relative few.
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Old 07-09-2019, 09:11 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by mchrono View Post
I donno...they didn't want to go back to MT but did so due to pressure from the real drivers vs the "influencers". Certainly going MT is no longer a mass market, profit-driven option, but really just someting for a relative few.
Not sure about that. I'm guessing they have good data on what cars sell well, how much profit they make and and understanding of how to maximize that with the punters.

Sure they listen to their customers but if that can't be turned into profit it will go nowhere.
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Old 07-09-2019, 09:23 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by mchrono View Post
Certainly going MT is no longer a mass market, profit-driven option, but really just someting for a relative few.
As of last year 2/3 of US 991.2 GT3s were ordered with a manual. I have not seen more recent numbers but thatís not an insignificant amount of profit.

I believe Porscheís marching orders are simple: if it doesnít pay for itself donít offer it. We havenít seen sales figures but between 911Rs, 991.2 manuals and GT4s theyíre likely around a billion dollars worth of sales on the latest manual GT cars? If thatís a niche itís one most manufactures would kill for. So I agree itís no longer mass market, but I strongly disagree that itís not profit driven.
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Old 07-09-2019, 09:43 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by mchrono View Post
I donno...they didn't want to go back to MT but did so due to pressure from the real drivers vs the "influencers". Certainly going MT is no longer a mass market, profit-driven option, but really just someting for a relative few.
I dunno. They have a LOT of cars with manual transmissions considering it's just for the "relative few" and not for the mass market. The GT3 isn't the only MT car they have...

GT3
Carrera T
Cayman
GT4
718 and all sub models
Boxster and sub models
718 GTS and sub models
A bunch of 911 models

Dude... there's like 20 cars they make that come with a MT.
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:13 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
I dunno. They have a LOT of cars with manual transmissions considering it's just for the "relative few" and not for the mass market. The GT3 isn't the only MT car they have...

GT3
Carrera T
Cayman
GT4
718 and all sub models
Boxster and sub models
718 GTS and sub models
A bunch of 911 models

Dude... there's like 20 cars they make that come with a MT.
No because a real drivers/enthusiasts car is 4 things, 1-NA, 2- manual, 3- RWD, 4- relatively light weight.

That eliminates almost all 911 and cayman/Boxster models, leaving only the GT3, GT4, and the Spyder (which is now basically a convertible GT4)

So with that criteria (excluding crazy rare numbered cars), the only true drivers cars that Porsche still makes are GT3/GT3T and the GT4/Spyder.
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:22 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Drifting View Post
No because a real drivers/enthusiasts car is 4 things, 1-NA, 2- manual, 3- RWD, 4- relatively light weight.

That eliminates almost all 911 and cayman/Boxster models, leaving only the GT3, GT4, and the Spyder (which is now basically a convertible GT4)

So with that criteria (excluding crazy rare numbered cars), the only true drivers cars that Porsche still makes are GT3/GT3T and the GT4/Spyder.
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=moving+the+goalposts
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:51 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Drifting View Post
No because a real drivers/enthusiasts car is 5 things, 1-NA, 2- manual, 3- RWD, 4- relatively light weight, 5- slow.
Helped out a little So that eliminates the 918, GT2 RS and just about everyone I know and most of us involved in a variety of competitions/series

Originally Posted by Petevb View Post
As of last year 2/3 of US 991.2 GT3s were ordered with a manual. I have not seen more recent numbers but that’s not an insignificant amount of profit.

I believe Porsche’s marching orders are simple: if it doesn’t pay for itself don’t offer it. We haven’t seen sales figures but between 911Rs, 991.2 manuals and GT4s they’re likely around a billion dollars worth of sales on the latest manual GT cars? If that’s a niche it’s one most manufactures would kill for. So I agree it’s no longer mass market, but I strongly disagree that it’s not profit driven.
If you take into account the RS, in the US I believe that number drops to about ~33% (although I cant find the article) - elsewhere the uptake of manuals is much lower, often for very different reasons to those cited in the US. My SA will swear black and blue that he hasn't sold a manual GT3 (since the 997). Moreover he will openly state that at this particular dealership they hate getting manual cars as trades as they are so hard to shift.

Its surprising how different markets can react - certainly down here there is a price point perception with manuals (rightly or wrongly).

However, I am 100% certain Porsche would stop making manuals if the revenue stream was not sufficient to meet the production investment/ROC case.

Last edited by groundhog; 07-10-2019 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:31 AM
  #70  
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According to Christophorus edition 391, just over 75% of all 911s and 718s are PDK.
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Old 07-10-2019, 09:49 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by groundhog View Post
Moreover he will openly state that at this particular dealership they hate getting manual cars as trades as they are so hard to shift.
You can get coaching for that.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:16 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Nizer View Post
You can get coaching for that.
I thought the pun was very good tho . --> manual cars being hard to shift
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:22 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by mchrono View Post
I donno...they didn't want to go back to MT but did so due to pressure from the real drivers vs the "influencers".
The development lead time on the manual gearbox can be measured in years and PAG management is made up of German engineers with MBAs... So there is a less than zero chance that it wasn't planned for from the start based on sales forecasts that also drove the final development of the PDK. PAG telling "influencers" and DE world champions otherwise was a marketing exercise.
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:35 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas View Post
The development lead time on the manual gearbox can be measured in years and PAG management is made up of German engineers with MBAs... So there is a less than zero chance that it wasn't planned for from the start based on sales forecasts that also drove the final development of the PDK. PAG telling "influencers" and DE world champions otherwise was a marketing exercise.
Yup.
Car companies know what engines and gearboxes and tech will go into the next model like 2-3 model-years in advance. Do people really think the next model-year car is actually designed/built when rumors about it start to circulate? Porsche already has the 993 planned (or whatever it's gonna be called). New models aren't designed in real time. They are planned years in advance.
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Old 07-10-2019, 02:36 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Drifting View Post
No because a real drivers/enthusiasts car is 4 things, 1-NA, 2- manual, 3- RWD, 4- relatively light weight.

That eliminates almost all 911 and cayman/Boxster models, leaving only the GT3, GT4, and the Spyder (which is now basically a convertible GT4)

So with that criteria (excluding crazy rare numbered cars), the only true drivers cars that Porsche still makes are GT3/GT3T and the GT4/Spyder.
Oh come off that high horse about what defines 'a real drivers car'.

and by your own definition a gt3 will not be 'a real drivers car' either as point (4) relatively light weight absolutely does not apply given the modern gt3 is almost 1500kg....
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