Is Porsche diluting the GT Brand?
05-06-2019, 04:18 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
05-06-2019, 04:19 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Well, they spent all the $ building a Lambo URUS why not steal some parts and do it all over again as a Porsche?
05-06-2019, 04:22 PM
#3
I am a new GT3 Owner
I'm happy they "diluted" the brand so I could get an allocation to enjoy this amazing car at the price I paid. If Porsche can sell other GT variants, I hope they are successful and plow those fat margins into creating more excellent GT cars that more people can enjoy to the fullest.
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05-06-2019, 05:06 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Following BMW M and MB AMG into the branding abyss of fast, boring cars and SUVs...it's the slippery slope that ends in fully autonomous vehicles made by non-car companies. Sucks.
05-06-2019, 05:24 PM
#9
Am I happy for those cars to exist? If it makes Porsche money and lets them invest in things I'm interested in (manual GT3, Spyder, normally aspirated engines, etc) then my answer is identical to my grudging acceptance of the Cayenne- sure. Like the Cayenne they will be amazing pieces of engineering and best in class to drive. Do I think they should be badged as GT cars? I don't... unless they go racing (which would be awesome).
The Cayenne undoubtedly diluted the Porsche brand to the point that a manufacture that once exclusively made sports cars today makes relatively few. The Cayenne just as undoubtedly made the company stronger, and the GT cars got better (and likely more valuable, because everything can be a value thread!) because of it. Comparing the pre and post Cayenne eras is striking. Call 1993 a good example of pre: Porsche was selling the 928 GTS, 968, 964 and 964 Turbo. All of these were very good cars, though none were very profitable. That lack of profitability impacted what Porsche could afford to engineer, and thus Porsche was far from the cutting edge. The 928's chassis started production 15 years prior, the 968's was an evolution of the 17 year old 924, while the oldest looking of the cars was actually the newest with a major refresh 4 years before. Though in Turbo form the 964 was still using 15 year old CIS despite the fact that the rest of Porsche's lineup had gone to electronic fuel injection a decade before.
In the decades post Porsche Cayenne (and post the 996/ boxster twins obviously) Porsche has clearly upped its engineering game. Under the skin the platforms and engines are all newer and better for it. Compare halo products: the 964 Turbo got leftover CIS because they couldn't afford to engineer EFI for such a low volume car. Meanwhile today the GT3's got an engine that's the envy of the world- still normally aspired, revs to 9k, finger follower cams with solid lifters and somehow Porsche has managed to keep it emissions legal and in the lineup when everything around it has given up and gone turbo. That type of engineering takes money, and that money is largely down to the bigger tent Porsche has has erected.
GT cars have held a special place within that tent, a breed apart. Most owners track or compete with their cars, and by owning a GT car you're identifying with that group. Do I think that most owners of a Flacht tuned Cayenne would track or compete with it? No, so to me it would make more sense to come up with a different label for that group. But I will say this- I'd like them to build that car and I'd like to drive it. Because if I'm at Flacht I'm looking straight back to the SC/RS and 959 at Paris - Dakar and saying I will build a Cayenne for competition. In doing so I'd take square aim at the Raptor, and the demon offspring of a GT2 and Raptor sounds pretty fricken awesome now that I think about it.
The Cayenne undoubtedly diluted the Porsche brand to the point that a manufacture that once exclusively made sports cars today makes relatively few. The Cayenne just as undoubtedly made the company stronger, and the GT cars got better (and likely more valuable, because everything can be a value thread!) because of it. Comparing the pre and post Cayenne eras is striking. Call 1993 a good example of pre: Porsche was selling the 928 GTS, 968, 964 and 964 Turbo. All of these were very good cars, though none were very profitable. That lack of profitability impacted what Porsche could afford to engineer, and thus Porsche was far from the cutting edge. The 928's chassis started production 15 years prior, the 968's was an evolution of the 17 year old 924, while the oldest looking of the cars was actually the newest with a major refresh 4 years before. Though in Turbo form the 964 was still using 15 year old CIS despite the fact that the rest of Porsche's lineup had gone to electronic fuel injection a decade before.
In the decades post Porsche Cayenne (and post the 996/ boxster twins obviously) Porsche has clearly upped its engineering game. Under the skin the platforms and engines are all newer and better for it. Compare halo products: the 964 Turbo got leftover CIS because they couldn't afford to engineer EFI for such a low volume car. Meanwhile today the GT3's got an engine that's the envy of the world- still normally aspired, revs to 9k, finger follower cams with solid lifters and somehow Porsche has managed to keep it emissions legal and in the lineup when everything around it has given up and gone turbo. That type of engineering takes money, and that money is largely down to the bigger tent Porsche has has erected.
GT cars have held a special place within that tent, a breed apart. Most owners track or compete with their cars, and by owning a GT car you're identifying with that group. Do I think that most owners of a Flacht tuned Cayenne would track or compete with it? No, so to me it would make more sense to come up with a different label for that group. But I will say this- I'd like them to build that car and I'd like to drive it. Because if I'm at Flacht I'm looking straight back to the SC/RS and 959 at Paris - Dakar and saying I will build a Cayenne for competition. In doing so I'd take square aim at the Raptor, and the demon offspring of a GT2 and Raptor sounds pretty fricken awesome now that I think about it.
Last edited by Petevb; 05-06-2019 at 11:08 PM.
05-06-2019, 05:40 PM
#10
As a company you cant do 100 things very well. Something will be compromised in an effort to pump out quantity vs quality.
05-06-2019, 05:53 PM
#11
Instructor
The problem is, like M cars today, once you use that label to sell other cars that don't deserve it to boost sales it is easy to get lazy and start letting the regular line drive the development of special line rather than the other way around. When was the last time BMW made a true M engine? The S62 from the E39s, S65 from the E92s etc. were special to the M badge, current engines are really just edited versions of stuff BMW already makes. When companies do this part of the sole of the original concept always seems to die off so Im skeptical here. Have bad feeling about direction Porsche is going. Feels a lot like BMW which used to make brilliant stuff, jumped on mass appeal bandwagon and has totally forgot how to make cars that are worth caring about any more.
05-06-2019, 06:15 PM
#12
Porsche has been stamping “GTS” on everything from Caymans to Cayennes! Anyone who confuses a “GT” stamped SUV with a GT3/RS or GT2/RS true GT car deserves to pay astronomical ADMs and be subject to enhanced interrogation sleep deprivation techniques by being forced to repeatedly read RL value threads.
05-06-2019, 06:27 PM
#13
I mean Cayenne and Macan GTS already exist with the "GT" moniker. Not sure if this moves the needle much. Yes a Porsche GTS is not a GT3/RS etc, but it's not like they will have a M sport version of the carrera and cayenne since they already exist in the GTS versions.
And even with AMG dilution, demand for the AMG GTR and prices have been strong
And even with AMG dilution, demand for the AMG GTR and prices have been strong
05-06-2019, 06:51 PM
#15
The problem is, like M cars today, once you use that label to sell other cars that don't deserve it to boost sales it is easy to get lazy and start letting the regular line drive the development of special line rather than the other way around. When was the last time BMW made a true M engine? The S62 from the E39s, S65 from the E92s etc. were special to the M badge, current engines are really just edited versions of stuff BMW already makes. When companies do this part of the sole of the original concept always seems to die off so Im skeptical here. Have bad feeling about direction Porsche is going. Feels a lot like BMW which used to make brilliant stuff, jumped on mass appeal bandwagon and has totally forgot how to make cars that are worth caring about any more.